Creating an Auto flower Strain

Dragon800 · Sep 6, 2023

Hello, I have been breeding my own strains for many years and recently started dabbling with autoiflowers. I have a question on whether the strain I am working on will have a possibility of being an autoflower or not. I have attached a picture for ease of understanding. Although I have been breeding my own strains and I know how to breed in wanted traits I am not that familiar with the recessive gene of the autoflower and as such don't completely understand how to breed a photo-sensitive strain to become an autoflower. What I have here are seeds from a male and a female that should have had autoflower genes unless the gene only passes through a male?

GoldenDragondnw · Sep 6, 2023

Love your name! Hello!

GoldenDragondnw · Sep 6, 2023

Won't it have a 25% chance of being an auto? Or it might be 50

Dragon800 · Sep 6, 2023

GoldenDragondnw said:
Won't it have a 25% chance of being an auto? Or it might be 50

Possibly, I'm not for certain though I've heard it's pretty hard to create an autoflower strain. My knowledge of recessive genes isn't very good either, I'm used to just growing a batch and picking those with the best traits to continue breeding. As for the name thanks lol I came up with it from my Polaris Dragon 800 snowmobile.

radagast · Sep 6, 2023

Autoflower1 photoperiod insensitivity is a recessive Mendelian trait, according to this article. Here's an example of how that works in humans:

If i'm corrected, the same way will work on plants where 50% off all offspring would be affected and the others would be carriers. Sensi Seeds has a guide on how to stabilize strains, it could be helpful.

GoldenDragondnw · Sep 6, 2023

radagast said:
Autoflower1 photoperiod insensitivity is a recessive Mendelian trait, according to this article. Here's an example of how that works in humans:

View attachment 2035556

If i'm corrected, the same way will work on plants where 50% off all offspring would be affected and the others would be carriers. Sensi Seeds has a guide on how to stabilize strains, it could be helpful.

Yea I wasn't sure the recessive trait percentage but that's the chart that was in my mind.

Dragon800 · Sep 6, 2023

Thanks radagast that's quite helpful. Guess I'll just grow a bunch and if some end up autoflower I'll breed those again and so on. I just bought some seeds for some siberian ruderalis too so that should be fun to mess around with. https://khalifagenetics.com/product/siberian-ruderalis/?attribute_package-size=12+regular+seeds
Im trying to create a fast flowering autoflower that is cold and mold resistant for my climate. I'm sure I could find seeds for an existing strain but it's so much more rewarding when you create your own stable plants tailored to your area.

radagast · Sep 7, 2023

Dragon800 said:
Thanks radagast that's quite helpful. Guess I'll just grow a bunch and if some end up autoflower I'll breed those again and so on.

I have no experience with breeding whatsoever, but i believe you're right that about half of them would have autoflower1 gene.

Dragon800 said:
I just bought some seeds for some siberian ruderalis too

Getting an original ruderalis is probably the best thing you could do but having the right photoperiod genetics/phenotype you're looking for. As far as i know, Haze strains are mainly Sativas, which might make it hard for them to resist cold temperatures, given they are better suited to warm sunny places.

Dragon800 · Sep 7, 2023

radagast said:
I have no experience with breeding whatsoever, but i believe you're right that about half of them would have autoflower1 gene.

Getting an original ruderalis is probably the best thing you could do but having the right photoperiod genetics/phenotype you're looking for. As far as i know, Haze strains are mainly Sativas, which might make it hard for them to resist cold temperatures, given they are better suited to warm sunny places.

yeah thats a good point. The Black strain is really close to 100% indica according to BC Bud Depot. They don't share actual genetics though. Ive had really good luck with it in cold wet climate it's one hell of a strain. The plant turns such a dark purple it looks black. It's pretty cool.
I think I might try crossing this Siberian Ruderalis with The Black and see what I get.

GoldenDragondnw · Sep 7, 2023

Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

The original cannabis strain database! Searching for cannabis seeds, cultivars, hybrids or lineages? Find all known marijuana varieties, infos & sources here!

en.seedfinder.eu

Really good for researching genetics

Dragon800 · Sep 8, 2023

GoldenDragondnw said:
Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

The original cannabis strain database! Searching for cannabis seeds, cultivars, hybrids or lineages? Find all known marijuana varieties, infos & sources here!

en.seedfinder.eu

Really good for researching genetics

nice!

autobreeder23 · Sep 18, 2023

I breed my own autos. I have stabilized 3 photo x auto crosses into autoflowering strains. They follow mendalian punett square recessive trait passing.
So... the first auto/photo cross will most likely (99.6%) be all photo with a recessive auto gene cared in all progeny. The auto trait shows in the F2 progeny at about 25%. Successive auto x auto sibling crossing will produce a higher percentage of he recessive auto trait.
1st cross = 0% auto
2nd cross = 25% auto
3rd cross = 86% auto
4th cross = 96% auto
..... and so on...
I've stopped at F4 progeny for testing on one strain and have had 100% autos reported back from growers with 3-4 phenotypes mainly showing up.
If you want stability in ur new strain you must selectively cross alike phenotypes at least 6-7 times. This will get the phenotypic expression down to 1-2 or about 90% of plants with the same traits.
To answer your original question, according your graphic, the F1 of both crosses will carry the auto gene and none will be auto plants. Once you cross the F1s it will start to show from recombination but only when it's a double recessive pass from the F1s i.e. a very low percentage. Most likely around 12.6% since you are using 2 photo/auto F1s to start. I have not done this because of the time required and the plant count required to see the 12% on the first F2 planting. I have planted 50 seeds and not seen an auto at this stage and shelfed the project.
I would suggest working each photo/auto cross separately up to the F4 progeny. Then when they start to become auto stable cross the separate lines to make your (SUPER AUTO!!!). This will bring all avaliable phenos from the original crosses together in an auto format so you can start pheno hunting and backcrossing to lock in the traits and or phenotypes you want. Simple caution this takes alot.... of time to do correctly.
For home grown autos you can stop as soon as F4 and run the S!@# out of them with good results and tell people that you made it yourself. You can do this in 1 year if you're good and you plant as soon as the seeds are finished.
There are always ways of cheating but not recommended ( as in feminized, sibling crossing or selfing one pheno to isolate the auto gene). These will degrade the line quickly.
The best out come I've had for "fun/personal" stash seeds is to buy 3-5 auto strains with different lineage (the parents). They will be all Feminized seeds probably so you will need to get good at feminizing. Start 2 strains. Soon as you can clone one strain (or both) for feminized pollen donors. Start STS spary evey 3 days ss soon as you clone them. They will flip and produce pollen in about 20 days just in time to pollinate the other strain.
F1 created......
Germinate a seed from the F1 batch and another of your "parent" seeds. Repeat this process by using the parent as the pollen doner on your F1 cross. The progeny will be a 3 way F1 cross. Keep going until you have "breed " all your parent lines into the now 5 way F1 you have. This is where the magic comes in.
Grow 25 of the 5way F1 seeds and select the best 2 totally different phenos. Breed these 2 plants together and look for the winners. If you keep selecting alike phenos it will become stable after several crosses.

autobreeder23 · Sep 18, 2023

P.S.
If you select differing phenos to breed in the F2 and on you will preserve the gene pool better, showing more phenos to choose from in later versions. This keeps a certain chemotype locked to noticable phenotypes. If you find something special it's easier to find again if you didn't select it on the cross.
This happens when you finish the flowers on a plant you didn't pollinate and they are surprisingly better than expected. Sometimes better than the cross upon testing the next batch.

You can always go back 1 generation and find the pheno easier than pulling it out of subsequent finial versions (where it will probably be more watered down and harder to spot).
All this is after you work 5 strains together and run a test batch of the 5way F1. Most of the time the 5way F1 is phenomenal and only has 4 phenotypes leaning 50/50 to each parent in small degrees. The 5way F2 is where the 100s of phenotypes show up. Hit me up with questions dragon800. Keep posting, I'll follow ur progress.

I'm not the best and I'd rather be lucky than good any day of the week. I just found most of the ways it doesn't work and a few that do.

Dragon800 · Oct 22, 2023

autobreeder23 said:
P.S.
If you select differing phenos to breed in the F2 and on you will preserve the gene pool better, showing more phenos to choose from in later versions. This keeps a certain chemotype locked to noticable phenotypes. If you find something special it's easier to find again if you didn't select it on the cross.
This happens when you finish the flowers on a plant you didn't pollinate and they are surprisingly better than expected. Sometimes better than the cross upon testing the next batch.

You can always go back 1 generation and find the pheno easier than pulling it out of subsequent finial versions (where it will probably be more watered down and harder to spot).
All this is after you work 5 strains together and run a test batch of the 5way F1. Most of the time the 5way F1 is phenomenal and only has 4 phenotypes leaning 50/50 to each parent in small degrees. The 5way F2 is where the 100s of phenotypes show up. Hit me up with questions dragon800. Keep posting, I'll follow ur progress.

I'm not the best and I'd rather be lucky than good any day of the week. I just found most of the ways it doesn't work and a few that do.

Just seen this post thanks for the info!

Dragon800 · Oct 22, 2023

Started 3 seeds under 24 hr light just for the hell of it. Imagine my surprise when checking in and seeing this! 2 of the 3 are flowering under full 24hr light. Seeing one is male and one female should i breed these 2?

Dragon800 · Oct 23, 2023

breeding these two should give me seeds with a highly likelihood of having the autoflower gene right?

Greenjourneyman · Oct 23, 2023

autobreeder23 said:
I breed my own autos. I have stabilized 3 photo x auto crosses into autoflowering strains. They follow mendalian punett square recessive trait passing.
So... the first auto/photo cross will most likely (99.6%) be all photo with a recessive auto gene cared in all progeny. The auto trait shows in the F2 progeny at about 25%. Successive auto x auto sibling crossing will produce a higher percentage of he recessive auto trait.
1st cross = 0% auto
2nd cross = 25% auto
3rd cross = 86% auto
4th cross = 96% auto
..... and so on...
I've stopped at F4 progeny for testing on one strain and have had 100% autos reported back from growers with 3-4 phenotypes mainly showing up.
If you want stability in ur new strain you must selectively cross alike phenotypes at least 6-7 times. This will get the phenotypic expression down to 1-2 or about 90% of plants with the same traits.
To answer your original question, according your graphic, the F1 of both crosses will carry the auto gene and none will be auto plants. Once you cross the F1s it will start to show from recombination but only when it's a double recessive pass from the F1s i.e. a very low percentage. Most likely around 12.6% since you are using 2 photo/auto F1s to start. I have not done this because of the time required and the plant count required to see the 12% on the first F2 planting. I have planted 50 seeds and not seen an auto at this stage and shelfed the project.
I would suggest working each photo/auto cross separately up to the F4 progeny. Then when they start to become auto stable cross the separate lines to make your (SUPER AUTO!!!). This will bring all avaliable phenos from the original crosses together in an auto format so you can start pheno hunting and backcrossing to lock in the traits and or phenotypes you want. Simple caution this takes alot.... of time to do correctly.
For home grown autos you can stop as soon as F4 and run the S!@# out of them with good results and tell people that you made it yourself. You can do this in 1 year if you're good and you plant as soon as the seeds are finished.
There are always ways of cheating but not recommended ( as in feminized, sibling crossing or selfing one pheno to isolate the auto gene). These will degrade the line quickly.
The best out come I've had for "fun/personal" stash seeds is to buy 3-5 auto strains with different lineage (the parents). They will be all Feminized seeds probably so you will need to get good at feminizing. Start 2 strains. Soon as you can clone one strain (or both) for feminized pollen donors. Start STS spary evey 3 days ss soon as you clone them. They will flip and produce pollen in about 20 days just in time to pollinate the other strain.
F1 created......
Germinate a seed from the F1 batch and another of your "parent" seeds. Repeat this process by using the parent as the pollen doner on your F1 cross. The progeny will be a 3 way F1 cross. Keep going until you have "breed " all your parent lines into the now 5 way F1 you have. This is where the magic comes in.
Grow 25 of the 5way F1 seeds and select the best 2 totally different phenos. Breed these 2 plants together and look for the winners. If you keep selecting alike phenos it will become stable after several crosses.

autobreeder for the win,
great information man!!

Dragon800 · Oct 25, 2023

Greenjourneyman said:
autobreeder for the win,
great information man!!

yeah i agree thats some great info he posted

albitross · Dec 13, 2023

Dragon800 said:
breeding these two should give me seeds with a highly likelihood of having the autoflower gene right?

Did you do the dirty with those two? I'd love an update!

Auto x auto should've worked.

Dragon800 · Dec 14, 2023

albitross said:
Did you do the dirty with those two? I'd love an update!

Auto x auto should've worked.

Yeah i did thanks for asking! The mother just finished and i have 5 little seedlings started now to see if they are all autoflower. Ive made new strains for about ten years now but never played around with autoflower. This is very exciting i just wish i had more space.

Creating an Auto flower Strain

Creating an Auto flower Strain

Dragon800

Attachments

GoldenDragondnw

GoldenDragondnw

Dragon800

radagast

GoldenDragondnw

Dragon800

radagast

Dragon800

GoldenDragondnw

Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

Dragon800

Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

autobreeder23

autobreeder23

Dragon800

Dragon800

Attachments

Dragon800

Greenjourneyman

Dragon800

albitross

Dragon800

Creating an Auto flower Strain

Creating an Auto flower Strain

Dragon800

Attachments

GoldenDragondnw

GoldenDragondnw

Dragon800

radagast

GoldenDragondnw

Dragon800

radagast

Dragon800

GoldenDragondnw

Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

Dragon800

Marijuana Strain Database | Search | Research :: SeedFinder.eu

autobreeder23

autobreeder23

Dragon800

Dragon800

Attachments

Dragon800

Greenjourneyman

Dragon800

albitross

Dragon800

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency