Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Medigrow · Feb 14, 2019

Snakeskins said:
I remove all leaves that remain under the grid after two weeks of flower or longer but that one's obvious I suppose.

kinda late to reply to your post but... Do you remove everything at once or you're removing over few days/weeks?

Dirtbag · Feb 14, 2019

I tried defoliating once and found my budd compensated by growing more sugar leaf in the buds. Quality declined.

I lollipop my plants and bend the branches down to open it up. In flower the only leaves I remove are the very large ones growing out of the stem junctions with purple petioles. They can block a ton of light and arent needed. But the rest I leave, you need a solid canopy for proper photosynthesis. It's not rocket science.

I have one friend who is sold on it, even though he's had 3 shitty crops since hes started doing it lol.

Glow · Feb 19, 2019

FatManatee said:
THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

This is the time you all have been waiting for, the product has been dried and has started the curing process. Overall I would say the test is a success, and I think I've done a good job at keeping all things equal. However, the results were not what I expected.

And the winner is.... Control group! (no defoliation)

Control group:
Plant 1: 142.5g
Plant 2: 148.0g
Plant 3: 133.0g
Total: 423.5g

Defoliation group:
Plant A: 137.5g
Plant B: 116.5g
Plant C: 130.0g
Total: 384.5g

Total yield 808 grams, 1.56g/w (average power draw during flowering)

Control group also had bigger flowers, less larfy shit, so it was easier to trim and has a better bag appeal.
My conclusion is, pruning plants for increased light penetration (during week 2 flowering) decreases yield. Mind you, this doesn't prove that pruning doesn't work to increase yields, and needs further studying and testing done using different techniques.

Next time I will be conducting a test of the lollipop technique.

Overall, I'm really happy with this grow, I smashed my goal of achieving 1 gram / watt, using my new "quantum board" lights, and I highly recommend these lights to anyone else.

Discuss, argue, point to me what I did wrong, so I can make better testing in the future.
Thanks for sticking with the ride! :)

Hey @FatManatee I'd say this is the best controlled trial I have seen on any forum yet re defoliation verse control. What you should do is a summary of the trial re substrate type, genetics, nutrient regime, light wattage/type, flowering period from start to finish, level of defoliation and approach to defoliation (e.g. percentage of leaves removed from where?) and outcomes re weight to tidy up and finish the whole thing off (a summary). I'm actually going to cite your trial in a new book I'm writing if that is okay (??) and link to this thread. I may also publish online citing the trial if that is okay also. I have to say that after wading through forums I have come across loads of defoliation threads but the methodology was highly flawed in all cases - whereas your methodology was pretty decent and certainly gives reasonably accurate data that growers can trust. Again nice job man. Always good to see a grower approaching things the right way re research. PM me if you want to chat.

FatManatee · May 15, 2019

Glow said:
Hey @FatManatee I'd say this is the best controlled trial I have seen on any forum yet re defoliation verse control. What you should do is a summary of the trial re substrate type, genetics, nutrient regime, light wattage/type, flowering period from start to finish, level of defoliation and approach to defoliation (e.g. percentage of leaves removed from where?) and outcomes re weight to tidy up and finish the whole thing off (a summary). I'm actually going to cite your trial in a new book I'm writing if that is okay (??) and link to this thread. I may also publish online citing the trial if that is okay also. I have to say that after wading through forums I have come across loads of defoliation threads but the methodology was highly flawed in all cases - whereas your methodology was pretty decent and certainly gives reasonably accurate data that growers can trust. Again nice job man. Always good to see a grower approaching things the right way re research. PM me if you want to chat.

Hey, sorry for the late reply, I've been on a vacation after this grow. Thank you very much for the kind words, it really means a lot to me, and I will definitely be doing more trials, and do my best to improve collecting data.

I believe that all knowledge should be open sourced, I couldn't be here without the great effort the community has put into sharing information, you are very welcome to cite any of my studies in your book, or anywhere else you like :)

Cheers

hawkman · May 16, 2019

????? still like to do a light defoliation - as far as weight - to be a complete experiment one must know all nutrients used. Don't get me wrong a great side by side test; looking forward to you next one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peace was under the impression that indoors cultivation needs some leaf removal

Shedhead · Jul 14, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
No. Im saying the pumping with nutes would hurt quality.

And when i used to sell to the dispensary i had to submit samples.

But we found the opposite about thc concentration.

I lower my plants away from the light a few inches as they ripen. Increases potency and flavor/smell in my experience with hid lighting.

Me to I also notice that highering the light frosts them up the last few days to a week. But I ain't running gavitas which you have to run high in my opinion anyway.shedhead out.

Simplicio · Jul 14, 2019

This is the result that commercial growers would've expected.
They don't waste time doing costly things that do no good.
Not surprising that cutting off solar panels harms yield.

Wolfe · Jul 14, 2019

I usually give my plants a hair cut. Insides and lowers. I do it periodically through the cycle of the plant. Outside you don’t have to worry about doing this as much. The sun penetrates more than any light will. I’m not sold on complete defoliation. I’ve had friends who are good producers that do it though. If you remove the lower branches earlier when they are just starting in veg, more concentration will go to the top of the plant.

Terpeneluv · Jul 31, 2019

Outstanding thread. Thanks for the heads-up, FatManatee.

ahemait · Aug 25, 2019

Call me crazy, but I feel like an organism evolving over millions of years wouldn't purposely do so in a manner to retard it's ability to survive and flourish(shading it's reproductive bits and making them grow smaller/poorly).

I've tried this myself on a few plants and never managed to increase yields.

Also, bang up grow there ya chubby dolphin. Well done.

1diesel1 · Aug 25, 2019

ahemait said:
Call me crazy, but I feel like an organism evolving over millions of years wouldn't purposely do so in a manner to retard it's ability to survive and flourish(shading it's reproductive bits and making them grow smaller/poorly).

I've tried this myself on a few plants and never managed to increase yields.

Also, bang up grow there ya chubby dolphin. Well done.

Lol, chubby dolphin:)

hawkman · Aug 26, 2019

when growing inside you can/must defoliate in relation to grow space and strain growing - no way around it - FAN LEAVES MOST OF THE TIME NEED TO BE REMOVED--- feed after any defoliation

MIMedGrower · Aug 26, 2019

hawkman said:
when growing inside you can/must defoliate in relation to grow space and strain growing - no way around it - FAN LEAVES MOST OF THE TIME NEED TO BE REMOVED--- feed after any defoliation

I think you may have it backwards. Most of the time there is no need to remove leaves.

Proven in this thread and in my personal experience. And it is just another tool to use if needed.

Simplicio · Aug 26, 2019

ahemait said:
Call me crazy, but I feel like an organism evolving over millions of years wouldn't purposely do so in a manner to retard it's ability to survive and flourish(shading it's reproductive bits and making them grow smaller/poorly).

It's difficult to asses the benefits of pruning, and there's a lot of disinformation.
But a side-by-side test does answer questions.

Removing fan leaves won't send more food/energy to the rest of the plant.
Removing a solar panel will cause less food/energy to get to the rest of the plant.
The presence of fan leaves will cause the plant to eat more than they would without the fan leaves, not deprive colas of food/energy.

I rarely prune good leaves unless they are blocking light to more important places.

But I do wonder.
Cannabis plants evolved to maximize survivability of the species.
That's a 2-part process: produce as many seeds as possible (colas), but remain tough to survive the environment, so that those seeds can be produced.
It could be that more leaves grow than are needed, because the species anticipates leaf loss.

Inside, where the environment is very gentle, the plants might have evolved with fewer leaves.
If that's the case, then removing leaves to expose colas to more light could increase yield, in spite of being unnatural.

Dirtbag · Aug 26, 2019

I dont think it's necessary if you have the room to give to the plants. It really depends what style of growing you're doing though. I've done runs with fewer plants and big branches with minimal pruning. But my most recent crop has so many branches in such a small space it requires regular removal of older darker sun leaves with purple petioles, they're just shading way too many bud sites and restricting airflow. I also find stripping say 15% of the leaves, just taking off the oldest biggest leaves, actually causes the plant to have a bit of a growth surge.

The head grower at probably the best LP in Canada, Broken Coast removes those big leaves also for the same reason after several years of running experiments under 1.5 million watts of lighting, and that's honestly enough reason for me to believe it has a place, like MiMed said it's a tool you can use. It's important to leave on enough for healthy levels of photosynthesis though.

hawkman · Aug 26, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
I think you may have it backwards. Most of the time there is no need to remove leaves.

Proven in this thread and in my personal experience. And it is just another tool to use if needed.

Yea ! when it comes to defoliation many different ideas/thought - but basicly one shouldn't remove any leaves unless dead, ect the big fan leaves are need by the plant - I total agree with you but sometimes one needs to remove some

Mattyice · Aug 26, 2019

I personally will take off the bigger guard leaves or water leaves. I’ve been swazzing for a while not really knowing it was a thing and I’ve always had great yield. I do some in veg and some in flower. Flower only after good buds have established. And nothing after the 4th week into flower.

MIMedGrower · Aug 26, 2019

I think indoors it is more important to break apical (top flower) dominance and train the plant for the branches to stretch up for more or all tops than to remove leaves. That is only neccessary when there are stale air and humid pockets forming between leabes and plants. Air flow not light penetration is the real reason defoliation can help.

But indoor light is distance limited unlike the sun which also moves across the sky lighting plants from all over.

I have shown many 2-3’ tall bent plants with all their leaves intact at harvest quality buds grown down to the bottom. Even the flowers completely hidden by the canopy can get huge.

Plenty in my thread link signiture

ahemait · Aug 26, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
I think indoors it is more important to break apical (top flower) dominance and train the plant for the branches to stretch up for more or all tops than to remove leaves. That is only neccessary when there are stale air and humid pockets forming between leabes and plants. Air flow not light penetration is the real reason defoliation can help.

But indoor light is distance limited unlike the sun which also moves across the sky lighting plants from all over.

I have shown many 2-3’ tall bent plants with all their leaves intact at harvest quality buds grown down to the bottom. Even the flowers completely hidden by the canopy can get huge.

Plenty in my thread link signiture

I get decent buds down low but nothing close to yours, but i also fill my canopy so it's like a wall, I suppose I'll take some pics and post some shit, its been awhile and typing is for suckers.

MIMedGrower · Aug 26, 2019

ahemait said:
I get decent buds down low but nothing close to yours, but i also fill my canopy so it's like a wall, I suppose I'll take some pics and post some shit, its been awhile and typing is for suckers.

Thank you
I practiced with the same everything and the same breeders seeds for a few years to get those results.

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Medigrow

Dirtbag

Glow

FatManatee

hawkman

Shedhead

Simplicio

Wolfe

Terpeneluv

ahemait

1diesel1

hawkman

MIMedGrower

Simplicio

Dirtbag

hawkman

Mattyice

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