Do we need air stones?

Confuten1 · Nov 4, 2013

ttystikk said:
Nope. COLD water holds the most dissolved oxygen. That's why primitive fish like trout require cold water; their gills aren't as advanced as warm water fish like bass. Counterintuitive maybe, but remember it's the dissolved oxygen levels we're after, not the ability to hold dissolved solids such as sugar or salt.

ty TT

woodsmaneh · Nov 4, 2013

My power goes out every once in a while and it has been off for 11 hours and when it came on all was fine in my RDWC.

Papa · Nov 4, 2013

extremely useful post twist1. thank you. we've been looking for someone with a DO meter to do exactly that experiment for years.

somewhere in the archives is a table showing the saturation levels of DO in water with different temperatures. here it is:
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...xygen-in-relation-to-water-temperature.23805/

i wonder twist1, what the difference might be between using fewer or more airstones in your bucket? for instance, standard practice is one airstone in each UC bucket. is there an improvement if 2 or 4 are used?

twist1 · Nov 4, 2013

ttystikk said:
Twist1, excellent write-up! Thanks for that very timely discussion of your findings- and the clarity of the report tells me this ain't yer first rodeo at this, either.

That was not my research or write-up. I just linked it from another site. I believe it is Capulator (at a different site)??

twist1 · Nov 4, 2013

Papa... I think one of the problems also with the air pumps is that they generate heat in the water. More air pushing through would likely equate to a further heat rise/change.

ttystikk · Nov 4, 2013

I think the waterfall will yield benefits in growing sites beyond dissolved oxygenation levels. The splash and churn should help my girls drop roots more quickly, and should help the roots by pushing water through them.

twist1 · Nov 7, 2013

While pricing out building my UC, I was pretty surprised at the price of the air pumps compared to the water pumps. Yet another reason to get rid of those phuckers!

Also, I read a topic regarding someone's air pump was to close to their co2 gen and they swore that it impacted their roots (and led to them moving the pump). I wonder what impacts (IF ANY) that may have?

ttystikk · Nov 8, 2013

Replacing air stones with waterfalls in RDWC

DONE. Implemented and underway. No question in my mind this way is better than pump and stones. I'm not even using a substantially bigger waterpump, for cryin out loud!

woodsmaneh · Nov 8, 2013

ttystikk said:
Replacing air stones with waterfalls in RDWC

DONE. Implemented and underway. No question in my mind this way is better than pump and stones. I'm not even using a substantially bigger waterpump, for cryin out loud!

you got any pic to see how you did it?

squiggly · Nov 8, 2013

I mean if you think about the problem in terms of modeling it scientifically. Just conceptually speaking, O2 is never going to diffuse across a membrane faster than it dissolves into water using any of these methods mentioned.

As long as you're not taking out more than you put in, as soon as you reach max concentration of DO then you'll essentially maintain it. The only difference, in practice, between any of these methods is the amount of time it will take to saturate with O2 as compared with another method.

Temperature of the solvent is the controlling factor overall here.

woodsmaneh · Nov 8, 2013

squiggly said:
I mean if you think about the problem in terms of modeling it scientifically. Just conceptually speaking, O2 is never going to diffuse across a membrane faster than it dissolves into water using any of these methods mentioned.

As long as you're not taking out more than you put in, as soon as you reach max concentration of DO then you'll essentially maintain it. The only difference, in practice, between any of these methods is the amount of time it will take to saturate with O2 as compared with another method. So what is the best method? I would think what ever recovers the quickest and that is the question!

Temperature of the solvent is the controlling factor overall here.

Never heard water called solvent?

well I'm not so sure were on the same page, But as the OP I am looking for the best way to maximize the DO in the quickest and shortest time, (easy) and air stones are not the best answer. I guess if you had a bunch of air stones frothing the water but that would damage the roots. What I have been reading is that water tumbling or falling into itself is a better way and more effective way to replace DO in water.

squiggly · Nov 8, 2013

woodsmaneh said:
Never heard water called solvent?

well I'm not so sure were on the same page, But as the OP I am looking for the best way to maximize the DO in the quickest and shortest time, (easy) and air stones are not the best answer. I guess if you had a bunch of air stones frothing the waterbut that would damage the roots. What I have been reading is that water tumbling or falling into itself is a better way and more effective way to replace DO in water.

Anything with something dissolved in it is a solvent. In this case the solvent is water, the solute is oxygen. In air, nitrogen is the solvent with oxygen, argon, carbon dioxide, and water vapor as solutes.

I'll illustrate my meaning to you with an analogy.

Let's say you have a 5 gallon bucket with a plant in it.

Let's say (for the sake of argument only) the plant withdraws 1 unit of oxygen per minute via diffusion through the roots from the water in the bucket.

Let's also assume that the various methods have a capacity to input (replace) between 5-15 units of oxygen per minute via dissolution.

So if your plants are taking out 1 unit, and the worst method is inputting 5--the only real benefit that you obtain is which method saturates the solvent faster when you initially start the system up.

The reality is that it's very likely the most important thing here is to get the right temperature (too low of a temperature will slow down cellular processes at the root, though, and it's important to note that).

squiggly · Nov 8, 2013

I should add for the sake of clarity, that due to the nature of equilibrium and diffusion more capacity to replace oxygen will still be "better," but only marginally--and that's marginally on the atomic scale, which is extremely marginal.

woodsmaneh · Nov 8, 2013

Thanks for clarifying things for me bro :cool:

All4freedumb · Nov 8, 2013

I can't find the pictures on the farm of the set up I did with the manifold and the pvc running on top of the lids and dropping into each bucket. I did find one that showed when I used 1/4th lines feeding each bucket and still a stone in each bucket. The round after this one I ditched air stones and ran 1/2 in lines and upped the water flow to each site and reversed my flow of the UC. Kinda bums me out I can't find the manifold and pvc shots, that was some work and I was so proud of myself.. haha.. When I build the Hybrid room I almost dropped into each bucket, we just ran out of time with the build. I like the idea for bringing fresh water to each bucket even more so in ttystikk case where he has 1 in pvc connecting the buckets rather than 3 in. I know I have had some thick tails from bucket to bucket and one run in particular two buckets almost lost flow completely between two buckets. That is what made me want lines in each bucket, I learned about the benefits of do from the waterfall effect and that's what made me up it to 1/2 in pvc the next go.. My thread it was on if you wanna see what that run did is UC flip flop dream come true, it was a beautiful run.. A4FD

ttystikk · Nov 8, 2013

woodsmaneh said:
you got any pic to see how you did it?

Yes I will, as soon as I see some interest in the thread.

ttystikk · Nov 8, 2013

Squiggly's discussion of water as a solvent is right on point. Any method that achieves maximum oxygenation is acceptable.

MY goal was not and is not an attempt to improve DO levels, however. I aim to:

1. Maintain the same oxygen saturation as other approaches, while

2. Creating a more root friendly airspace above the water in the RDWC tubs

3. Churning the water to mix nutrients and cause water to swirl- gently!- around the roots

4. Reduce system cost and complexity

5. SILENCE THE INFERNAL CLAMOUR for once and for all!

Gurgling splashing water noises from the tubs are so incredibly soothing by comparison that it's worth looking into on this basis alone!

PaperStreet · Nov 8, 2013

Im not running stones anymore just tubes and about a watt/gallon of air pumped in/bucket.
My chiller return also makes a little noise but my buckets be sounding like there blasting off.
Without air in each individual bucket the ones without air looked like shit compared to the ones with air and thats on a 276 gal/min recirculation so if ur not going to use stones just make sure u get a tube with air in each site unless ur waterfalling each site? Ive tried both i swear my plants with more air def look better.
But thats in a non waterfall type setup so my buckets depend on the synthetic air persay.

squiggly · Nov 8, 2013

ttystikk said:
Squiggly's discussion of water as a solvent is right on point. Any method that achieves maximum oxygenation is acceptable.

MY goal was not and is not an attempt to improve DO levels, however. I aim to:

1. Maintain the same oxygen saturation as other approaches, while

2. Creating a more root friendly airspace above the water in the RDWC tubs

3. Churning the water to mix nutrients and cause water to swirl- gently!- around the roots

4. Reduce system cost and complexity

5. SILENCE THE INFERNAL CLAMOUR for once and for all!

Gurgling splashing water noises from the tubs are so incredibly soothing by comparison that it's worth looking into on this basis alone!

I would go for a waterfall for all of these same reasons. Also, there is a lot of shit in the air like spores et al--so probably better to do a waterfall in a system where you can protect against stuff like that better.

ttystikk · Nov 8, 2013

All4freedumb said:
I can't find the pictures on the farm of the set up I did with the manifold and the pvc running on top of the lids and dropping into each bucket. I did find one that showed when I used 1/4th lines feeding each bucket and still a stone in each bucket. The round after this one I ditched air stones and ran 1/2 in lines and upped the water flow to each site and reversed my flow of the UC. Kinda bums me out I can't find the manifold and pvc shots, that was some work and I was so proud of myself.. haha.. When I build the Hybrid room I almost dropped into each bucket, we just ran out of time with the build. I like the idea for bringing fresh water to each bucket even more so in ttystikk case where he has 1 in pvc connecting the buckets rather than 3 in. I know I have had some thick tails from bucket to bucket and one run in particular two buckets almost lost flow completely between two buckets. That is what made me want lines in each bucket, I learned about the benefits of do from the waterfall effect and that's what made me up it to 1/2 in pvc the next go.. My thread it was on if you wanna see what that run did is UC flip flop dream come true, it was a beautiful run.. A4FD
View attachment 350085

This sounds very similar to my approach, right down to reversing the flow of water through the system. In my case, I paid careful attention to the size of the orifices in my water delivery lines and this preserved flow rates. More discussion in;
Replacing air stones with waterfalls in rdwc

Do we need air stones?

Do we need air stones?

Do we need Air Stones?

Hell YES!

No Not if you have a water jet

Not sure right now

I like Bacon

Confuten1

exploitin strengths - perfectin weaknessess

woodsmaneh

Papa

twist1

twist1

ttystikk

twist1

ttystikk

woodsmaneh

squiggly

woodsmaneh

squiggly

squiggly

woodsmaneh

All4freedumb

ttystikk

ttystikk

PaperStreet

squiggly

ttystikk

Do we need air stones?

Do we need air stones?

Do we need Air Stones?

Hell YES!

No Not if you have a water jet

Not sure right now

I like Bacon

Confuten1

exploitin strengths - perfectin weaknessess

woodsmaneh

Papa

twist1

twist1

ttystikk

twist1

ttystikk

woodsmaneh

squiggly

woodsmaneh

squiggly

squiggly

woodsmaneh

All4freedumb

ttystikk

ttystikk

PaperStreet

squiggly

ttystikk

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency