EZ Cloner Collars - is there a re-usable option?

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

Got it. Pool shock , mixed at 7.0 ph : try to avoid using GH, gives around 75% hypochlorous acid (if source is confirmed).

That's all I was saying in the start. And pool shock is $3 for 13 oz which would make a whole bunch of solution. It's a great option for the community that will be using your collars

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

Yeah, I was thinking that as I walked away. I have been partially proven wrong if 75% hypo at pH 7.

I think I'm writing a blog on PC website tomorrow dedicated to you and I"s battle to find we're both half-right. ;) :)

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

PermaClone said:
PS: definitely interested in rapping w/ @squiggly

And I promise, if I"m wrong, I'm going to totally write a whole page on my website about how I was wrong and owe @FooDoo an apology.

M @ PC

Lol. No no. Pls no. If the science can back the theory that your users have a great option in pool shock which is 75% hypochlorous acid (to be confirmed) then I think they should know . They don't need to be taken advantage of with something that has a price tag of 80$ a gallon that costs 5 cents to make.

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

FooDoo said:
Lol. No no. Pls no. If the science can back the theory that your users have a great option in pool shock which is 75% hypochlorous acid (to be confirmed) then I think they should know . They don't need to be taken advantage of with something that has a price tag of 80$ a gallon that costs 5 cents to make.

Nah, i just wanna talk about pH affecting the chemical state between hypochlorite (ClO-) and hypochlorous acid (HCLO). It's a good topic and my arrogance is a funny aspect and proof of the fun of TF and other forming functioning as a real-time pear review.

I'll still recommend 05.2 and 2-5 but chemical state and hypochlorous acid are interesting topics. It'll be for those who wanna dive deap into chemistry. I wont mentionyou if you don't wantx

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

FooDoo said:
Lol. No no. Pls no. If the science can back the theory that your users have a great option in pool shock which is 75% hypochlorous acid (to be confirmed) then I think they should know . They don't need to be taken advantage of with something that has a price tag of 80$ a gallon that costs 5 cents to make.

Might piss iff Clear Rez, watermax and UC roots ...but my article are read by only like 100/month jist for my followers

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

At the end of the day we are here for each other. Have to watch out for one another because the industry is really putting a squeeze on people with some of the stuff they push.

Everything is pertaining to chlorine and not the collars. I'm not knocking those at all. I hopefully plan to use them for the next 5 years or more

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

5 years I can promise, we may have a good recipe for lower chlorine treatment soon, though. 75% hypochlorous at neutral is good. Gotta find out what pH it mixes at, though. And double check pKa calculation.

It's been fun! Thansk for being bold and questioning everything--so key!

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

I came across this

https://aquaox.wordpress.com/category/hypochlorous-acid-sodium-hypochlorite-and-chlorine/

"Stabilized HOCl is in the form of a physiologically balanced solution in 0.5-1.0% saline at a pH range of 3.5 to 7.0"

"At pH values less than 3.5, the solution exists as a mixture of chlorine in aqueous phase, chlorine gas, trichloride (Cl3−), and HOCl. At pH greater than 5.5, sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) starts to form and becomes the predominant species in the alkaline pH. To maintain HOCl solution in a stable form, maximize its antimicrobial activities, and minimize undesirable side products, the pH must be maintained at 5 to 5.5."

This one is talking about sodium hypochlorite however maybe calcium hypochlorite can be subsitituted in the same .5-1.0% saline solution to create a stabile HOCl

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

The cation (H+, Na+, Ca2+) dance with the anion (HClO-) based on established values called dissociation constants. When you get different ion in the equation, the equilibrium changes. So there would be differences between the different salt and the situation gets more complicated with more Cations fighting to 'dance' with the anions.

One things if for sure, HClO- is a weak acid, so you only have to be a little below pH 7.0 to push it's formation, but with other cations around the situation would get complex w/ likely a moving target for different cation concentrations beside Hydrogen ion (H+).

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

Lots of reading in that article. I didn't sleep much at all.

"Hypochlorous acid is widely used as a disinfectant, for example, in sanitizing wash solutions and swimming pools. In these applications, the reactive chemical is formed in solution by the addition of chlorine to water."

We have more testimony, from a completely different source, backing that simply chlorine + water = hypochlorous acid. There's even a reference to pool cleaners.

" At pH values greater than 5.5, hypochlorite ion (OCl−) is formed, and around pH 7.5 (the pKa of HOCl of the chlorine species in solution is at 50/50% mixture [HOCl/OCl−]). As the pH increases from 9.5, the concentration of OCl− in solution reaches its maximum level, becoming 100% hypochlorite (also referred to as bleach). However, on the acidic side at pH less than 4, the solution exists as a mixture of chlorine (Cl2) in aqueous phase, chlorine gas in the headspace, trichloride (Cl3−), and HOCl. At pH less than 3, an appreciable amount of Cl2 gas forms, which may cause the rapid loss of all active chlorine in an open container. To keep the solution stable and maintain its desired activity, the pH of the solution should remain between 5 and 5.5 and the solution should be stored in a tightly sealed container. For the first time, we have been able to determine these conditions to stabilize HOCl and to assess its biological properties as a pharmaceutical product."

The higher the ph (9-10) the more it turns to just bleach. At 7 ph the article states the mix is roughly 50% HOCl and 50% bleach. I plan to mix one solution at 5-5.5 and one at 7 and record any visual differences and test both solitons with a colorimeter or test strips. I plan to get those after work

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

Also someone reached out to HTH in an email and then FWD it to me at lunch.

"When hth #3 pool shock calcium hypochlorite is added to water does it bind into hocl, a hypochlorous acid?

Thank you for your time

Response:Hello:

The short answer is yes. But is also forms a calcium Ion "Ca+2", and an hydroxide Ion "2OH-"

If you have any further questions, please submit them through our website’s Contact Us feature (). You can also call us toll-free at 1-866-484-7665 or chat with us live through our website.

Sincerely,

The HTH® Customer Care Team"

I think a few others may have reached out to other sources as well.

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

Based on reading the difference sources, it sounds like to have the H+ conjugated to ClO- to form HClO ..you have to have the pH below the pKa of HClO and other positively charged ion (Na+, K+, Ca2+) all affect this formation. HTH's response "short answer, yes" he's saying yeah...there will be some HClO ...but Ca2+ dissociate to product -OH (hydroxide) which increases the pH...so he's not diving into it, but he's point out that you're not acidic and he's really not diving deep w/ the person who wrote the email.

hypochlorous acid's (HClO) dissociation contant (pKa) is 7.53 ...but this number is affected by other minerals, in the case of pool shock, the pH will be more alkaline (higher pH) upon dissolving in solution. So you would need to buffer the solution to push the pH below 7.53...while the buffer you use will invariably affect the dissociation constant by introducing other ionic species...but in general I suspect if you get the solution buffer well enough below 7.53 ... closer to 5.0 - 6.0 you can push the reaction towards HClO dominating the mixture.

Hypochlorous acid generators allow you to form it from NaCl (sodium chloride) which has a pH range of 5.6 - 8.6 depending on concentration in pure water...the generator, I believe, run a current through the water, but I'm not sure of the details.

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

Ah yes, chlorine generators. Came across those last night as well. Using electrical current to forcefully break bonds and have them rearrang themselves turning salt water into h+ ho- and na- cl+ which reform into HNa and HOCl giving you hypochlorous acid and the sodium hydrogen (I think this is baking soda?)

The cheapest unit is $150 or so and not worth it in small scale application.

PermaClone · Jan 27, 2017

You have to view the ionic species as dancing around in solution with a certain probably of being conjugated based on interaction. It's almost statistics. The more free hydrogen ion, the more likely ClO- will be dancing w/ H+. As you lower the pH you're increase H+ and therefore increasing the probably of HClO...but if you have other competing cations (positively chargeed ions) the higher the likely-hood you'll have Na+ and ClO- making NaClO. It's not as analog, more sliding scale. That why we're getting different suggestions on a pH that increases the likely-hood of HClO formation...b/c competing ions affect the equilibrium and % of ClO- conjugating to HClO.

Baking soda is Sodium Carbonate (NaCO2) which dissociates in water to form Na+ and CO2-.

FooDoo · Jan 27, 2017

OP my apologies for taking your thread so far into left field with the chlorine talk.

I plan to make a separate thread today or tomorrow testing the collars.

Nothing crazy. Just want to use them, clean them, and reuse them and give my opinion on how easy it was and how confident I am or am not with them. Also how good of a feeling it will be to not throw collars (money) down the drain.

hiboy · Jan 27, 2017

I've seen coco collars for $17.99 for a 35 count
Once rooted you plant with the collar on
Hb

PermaClone · Jan 28, 2017

hiboy said:
I've seen coco collars for $17.99 for a 35 count
Once rooted you plant with the collar on
Hb

Those are cool. definitely not reusable, though ir ecological. Still, really smart product over all.

If you clone 5x a year, you'll soend 12.85 over 5 years on coco colars (PermaClone last at least 5 years w a warranty to back it at 2.99 each)

If you clone every two weeks, like me, those would cost you $66.82 in 5 years in coco collars when a permaclone would coat you $2.99 once.

I'm about to get over 5 year out of my prototype set. I'm excited to discover their upper limit.

FooDoo · Jan 29, 2017

Another follow up email from HTH

"Calcium hydorxide is a by-product when granular chlorine is added to water and raises the pH of the water over time. The range of pH of Calcium Hypochlorite in 1% solution is 8.5 to 11.

As far as the "stability" issue that is perhaps discussing the issue of hypochlorous acid as it relates to the hypochlorite ion and how they interact based on the pH of the water. You see, when Calcium Hypochlorite is added to the water pH becomes important. Hypochlorous Acid (HOCI) is the form of chlorine that is the "active killing form of chlorine in water". And hypochlorite Ion" (OCI-) is far less able to kill organic contaminants. Combined they are called Free Chlorine, the chlorine available in the water to kill germs.

So, when the granular chlorine is added to the pool these two components are present. If the pH of the pool is 6.0, then the % of (HOCI) is a very high 97%, and the % of (OCI-) is merely 3%. In pools where the pH is in the middle of the recommended range at say 7.5 the HOCI is now 50% and the OCI- is 50%. As the pH rises the powerful HOCI becomes weaker and weaker. At a pH of 8.5 there is only a 9% presence of the HOCI, with a 91% presence of the weak OCI-."

PermaClone · Jan 29, 2017

BAMN! This dude lays it out nicely!

So pH adjustment is key to protinate the ClO- to HClO

I still say an easier method is to hit the 4 ppm for water treatment and 0.5 - 2 ppm boost to surface sterilize clones once they're all in place with the hypochlorite.

I like our creation in this threat of a gallon of calcium hypochlorite that you can deliver 4 ppm and 2 ppm shocks with 5 and 10 mL/gal doses.

OR

You can create hypochlorous acid, but you'll have to buffer you water such that upon adding granular calcium hypochlorite it counteracts the increase in pH and stays around 6.0. Then you'll have to ensure you cloner is at pH 6 with a pH down that doesn't react with hypochlorite

***NOTE WELL: General Hydroponics pH Down DOES react b/c it has two molecules in it that reaact w/ hypochlorite--citric acid & an ammonium salt****

I will admit I like the higher power of hypochlorous acid. BUT, I don't like the effort when I know I can simply do two shocks, one a 4 ppm upon filling the cloner and a second at 2 ppm after all the cuttings are in place.

Bleach offers this without the effort of pH buffering when the buffers could potentially react.

FooDoo · Jan 29, 2017

btw UC Roots is only .028% hypoclorous acid for 80$ a gallon.

I hope our discussion was enough to realize the literature being handed out with permaclone collars can be made more accurate.

This is why science is beautiful. Peer evaluation. No one in the field can just make a claim and then say no ones allowed to question or test it for themselves.

We work together to move forward.

EZ Cloner Collars - is there a re-usable option?

EZ Cloner Collars - is there a re-usable option?

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

PermaClone

PermaClone

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

hiboy

PermaClone

FooDoo

PermaClone

FooDoo

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