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tags420 · Apr 11, 2013

ttystikk said:
Lumens or PAR, more is still more.

Because most LED fixtures use lenses to concentrate and direct the light from the chips, they do NOT follow the inverse square law of light attenuation, rather their graphed curve of light reduction looks a lot like the inverse square law- only counting from a foot or two behind the fixture.

This design feature of LED lighting makes them much less usable in close quarters, and makes them a very poor candidate light source for movers since the light is so sharply directed.

Finally, if you haven't seen anyone hanging hps lights vertically down by their plants on this website, it's only because you haven't looked very hard! You ever heard of a 'tree grow', buddy? LOL

Not exactly... lumens are a weighted measurement...if the 2 lights had identical spectrums it could be comparable but that is the beauty of LED, more par...less wasted light in the lumen(yellow, green) area so they aren't quite equal. A light that has more lumens but less par is not more to the plants. Even same par in different spectrums could be more or less to the plants. But my point is that par is the unweighted measurement of the light within 400nm-700nm which is what light range drives photosynthesis. Then within that range certain wavelengths are more efficiently used by the plants. I'm know you know all this, I am just defending why I chose what I chose.

I didn't know about the lens changing the source location in the inverse square law. That might clear up some measurements vs math things I have been seeing. I just read up a little on the modified inverse equation. I would like to know the exact way to measure and use the law based on lens angles and what not.

I know about vertical bare bulbs...not the same as a sideways hood or led unit. With vertical bulb you use the whole area around the bulb...I've seen your thread and plenty others. And your are comparing your method vs mine...which are different and thus have different requirements.
Let me ask you this...If you could change nothing other than the lights in my situation(starting 12/12 with (22) 18"-20" plants in 5g's in 4x10) how would you do it...remember I'm only using 1099w-1256w. I used to use (3) 600w but many would use (3) 1000w. But I am comparing to 600w not 1000w.
My point was to show these what these led's could do in a larger scale situation. Not 1 light in a closet.
I think that my way is the most practical way to use my lights and the space I have. Apaches are 1000$.
Plus I will eventually fill the other side and need the rest of my lights. And I do think a light mover would increase coverage successfully, you just can't move them as far. I've seen them used very well.

ttystikk · Apr 11, 2013

I didn't say lumens and PAR are interchangeable, I said more is more, in both scales.

I have tried moving my LED lights, with disappointing results. I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with the focusing effects of the lenses.

I don't know exactly how to do the math to correct for the lenses, all I know is the curve printed on the side of my LED box looked like a normal curve, only is as if the distance is 'plus one' foot for light attenuation purposes. That is, it attenuated as if it already had an extra foot, so it attenuated more slowly.

That LED, btw, is a C.A.P. 130w 'extreme LED'- it does amazing things for my lil veg girls at a distance of four feet above them!

My first post was basically a wondering out loud moment about how to get more of the LED panels you had into play. I still think that tilting the panels slightly and hanging them over to the sides might allow for more panels, and would light the plants from two sides. This approach would also let you keep the panels far enough away from the plants that those lenses can do their job. Just tossing it out there, it might stir up another idea that would work better, who knows?

tags420 · Apr 27, 2013

Update

tags420 · May 8, 2013

There really isn't very much action in the LED section here...not even a hater talking shit.

what do you guys think??

shawnskush · May 8, 2013

some serious nute issues!

tattoojim · May 8, 2013

camag+...overdose

tags420 · May 8, 2013

Ya CaMg got out of control. It is really holding them back. They haven't got any nuts really so it's hard to say overdose.

pugliese63 · May 11, 2013

tags420 said:
Ya CaMg got out of control. It is really holding them back. They haven't got any nuts really so it's hard to say overdose.

I tuned into your thread because I'm considering transitioning to LED's. Nice project, thanks for sharing your work.

I'm no expert but I don't think its a nutrient issue. This looks like a broad mite infestation. I've dealt with these bastards and know what the symptoms look like. You first video in flower caught my attention. The yellow crinkled leaves and small bud sets are a result of their toxic saliva. I misdiagnosed this as a nutrient problem for several years, each time trashing the entire grow and starting over without any real closure. Do a search on broad mites. Once I started treating for them my problems went away.

ttystikk · May 11, 2013

pugliese63 said:
I tuned into your thread because I'm considering transitioning to LED's. Nice project, thanks for sharing your work.

I'm no expert but I don't think its a nutrient issue. This looks like a broad mite infestation. I've dealt with these bastards and know what the symptoms look like. You first video in flower caught my attention. The yellow crinkled leaves and small bud sets are a result of their toxic saliva. I misdiagnosed this as a nutrient problem for several years, each time trashing the entire grow and starting over without any real closure. Do a search on broad mites. Once I started treating for them my problems went away.

Same fucking thing happened with me and russet mites. I kept thinking it was nutes, our some aspect of my environment. I went a couple years before someone looked through a 120x scope and saw the little bastards!

tags420 · May 12, 2013

Interesting cause that did cross my mind. I don't think it is though... I have a 60x scope and didn't see anything. We had baby aphids in the clone room from new genetic but treated the whole facility so even mites and others should have been hit good. I'll check on next time again just incase. I have notice a lot of vigor and health returning since I hit hem hard with Mg. I am trying a new base soil(wheeler zamaroni 420 mix) and I don't think I will use it again. It's pretty strong and the littlest of feed gets them over nuted super easy.

ttystikk · May 12, 2013

tags420 said:
Interesting cause that did cross my mind. I don't think it is though... I have a 60x scope and didn't see anything. We had baby aphids in the clone room from new genetic but treated the whole facility so even mites and others should have been hit good. I'll check on next time again just incase. I have notice a lot of vigor and health returning since I hit hem hard with Mg. I am trying a new base soil(wheeler zamaroni 420 mix) and I don't think I will use it again. It's pretty strong and the littlest of feed gets them over nuted super easy.

Russet mites are small and easy to miss even at 60x- you're really better off liking for them at 120x. If you use Avid, chances are you got them, if you even had them in the first place.

pugliese63 · May 13, 2013

tags420 said:
Interesting cause that did cross my mind. I don't think it is though... I have a 60x scope and didn't see anything. We had baby aphids in the clone room from new genetic but treated the whole facility so even mites and others should have been hit good. I'll check on next time again just incase. I have notice a lot of vigor and health returning since I hit hem hard with Mg. I am trying a new base soil(wheeler zamaroni 420 mix) and I don't think I will use it again. It's pretty strong and the littlest of feed gets them over nuted super easy.

Glad you can rule broad mites out. They've become a real pain in the ass for a lot of growers.

How much cooling are you running and how did you calculate it? I'm interested in finding out how others are determining there AC needs with LED's. I know that the general formula for HID's is 1 ton per 2000 watts.

ttystikk · May 13, 2013

pugliese63 said:
Glad you can rule broad mites out. They've become a real pain in the ass for a lot of growers.

How much cooling are you running and how did you calculate it? I'm interested in finding out how others are determining there AC needs with LED's. I know that the general formula for HID's is 1 ton per 2000 watts.

Whoever told you that formula was way off. A ton of AC is good for 4x1kW, sealed and vented. Two if run open.

tags420 · May 13, 2013

You guys were right...got mites. They are early and not many but they are there. It has been 3+weeks since I checked last...getting lazy. Thanks for getting my ass in gear a little. I hit them with organicide and tomorrow I will azamax, then organicide again in a week. I still think that there was a Mg deficiency.

Honestly I see just as many people trying to heat their rooms as trying to cool them when using LED's. In the summer it is super easy for me to keep my room at 78 with just a 10" exhaust fan dialed down when it's 90 outside. In the winter I struggled to get it over 73 and keep good air exchange.

tags420 · May 14, 2013

I found this link. Pics are all too familiar
http://pogenetics.com/?page_id=389

pugliese63 · May 14, 2013

ttystikk said:
Whoever told you that formula was way off. A ton of AC is good for 4x1kW, sealed and vented. Two if run open.

I run a completely sealed room, with a Co2 burner, nothing is vented. 2 tons per 4k is perfect.

pugliese63 · May 14, 2013

tags420 said:
You guys were right...got mites. They are early and not many but they are there. It has been 3+weeks since I checked last...getting lazy. Thanks for getting my ass in gear a little. I hit them with organicide and tomorrow I will azomax, then organicide again in a week. I still think that there was a Mg deficiency.

Honestly I see just as many people trying to heat their rooms as trying to cool them when using LED's. In the summer it is super easy for me to keep my room at 78 with just a 10" exhaust fan dialed down when it's 90 outside. In the winter I struggled to get it over 73 and keep good air exchange.

Look into Forbid 4F. Its expensive but you can pick up practical amounts (i.e. 1/4 to 1 oz. starting around $25) on Ebay. Broads, cyclamen and russets are a little more challenging than regular spider mites. Glad you were able to diagnose that early on before it became a nightmare problem. Thanks for the info regarding cooling. I can imagine its a challenge in the winter months.

ttystikk · May 14, 2013

I've heard good things about Forbid4F, but I haven't used it. I know from a close friend that Forbid4F it's effective against russet mites. Key is to apply at least twice at intervals of a week.

tags420 · May 14, 2013

I just dunked/dipped everything I could handle flipping over in organicide w/azamax and sprayed the bigger plants and flower room(had to be done). I have noticed a serious change in the last 3 days in health. I will continue to treat weekly. The veg crop will be fine. But I will try to salvage this flowering one. Not going to be impressive by any means but I good learning experience I guess.

ttystikk · May 14, 2013

tags420 said:
I just dunked/dipped everything I could handle flipping over in organicide w/azomax and sprayed the bigger plants and flower room(had to be done). I have noticed a serious change in the last 3 days in health. I will continue to treat weekly. The veg crop will be fine. But I will try to salvage this flowering one. Not going to be impressive by any means but I good learning experience I guess.

Sometimes, the lesson is the only thing you get from a crop. When I get more than that, I always try to be more thankful than disappointed!

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