If in the beginning had they NOT bailed anyone out,banks,bond markets,auto companies etc etc it would have been a tough hit but they either would have made it or some one else would have come along and filled the vacume they left behind,bailing out a sinking ship is just stupid.
I have never understood their trickle down theory,they give them billions which they in turn give out in bonuses etc to the same folks (already rich) who created this mess in the first place,the money never really does trickle down to the places it needs to to make a difference.Instead if you took 1/4 of that money and injected it in to the lower and middle class they would have went out and spent that money buying cars,catching up on the mortgage and bills and buying the neccessities they had been holding out on for lack of funds creating almost instant results,the only ones that would have lost are the corporations that created this whole mess in the first place and yes the people that work for them would have lost their jobs too but it would be a small percentage compared to the number of the folks who lost their jobs because of what the companies they worked for did.
Sometimes it seems almost as if they are trying to make our country fail,I dont care what political party you are from if you handled your personal finances the way our government handles theirs you would find yourself very quickly homeless and destitute,it just cant work,common sense and economics tell us that.

I always thought 'trickle down' was just another term for 'shit always rolls downhill.' <shrug>

IMO, if a business is ran so badly that it fails....let it. If GM went down somebody else would fill in the gap. Rick Wagner was an idiot and GM deserved to be in the spot it was in. Same with big banks...who was approving all the sub prime loans. Wait, I know...curly, moe and larry.

Would it be fair to say "Federal Stimulus Funded = Payed for by "Tax Payers" due to the fact that success would otherwise be impossible under A program or businesses own merit?

The following list is about 1 year old...


So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. This list includes only those companies that received federal money from the Obama Administration’s Department of Energy and other agencies. The amount of money indicated does not reflect how much was actually received or spent but how much was offered. The amount also does not include other state, local, and federal tax credits and subsidies, which push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher.
The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:

1. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
4. Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6. SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10. Amonix ($5.9 million)
11. Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12. Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23. Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25. Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26. GreenVolts ($500,000)
27. Vestas ($50 million)
28. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30. Navistar ($39 million)
31. Satcon ($3 million)*
32. Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33. Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
34. ???

On the Health Care Issue... Has "Anybody" ever considered the fact that young people that are going to pay the Bulk for Obama Care "Now" may never even see the benefit to there selves in later years when needed the most... Reminds me of SSI and Medicare already...

I am perfectly fine with federal stimulus funds, aka taxpayer funds, going to good use. The home energy retrofit program is, in my opinion, good use, especially because it benefits both taxpayers and homeowners, who are usually also taxpayers. Infrastructure is another good use for taxpayer dollars, in fact, it's where I would plan on my money being spent.

Making war to support corporate interests *overseas* is not a good use of my taxpayer dollars.

Our home energy retrofit was done by Beutler Corporation. I don't see them on the list, yet they're the outfit overseeing the disbursement of funds in California. In fact, our solar installation was unique in the entire state, which is one reason why it took longer than usual.

No Disrespect to Beutler Corporation... or Seamaiden for that matter! The statement "I am perfectly fine with federal stimulus funds, aka taxpayer funds, going to good use" and the companies that were Hand Picked by You Know Who... Listed Above, Do not belong in the same category... ;) I have friends that Own companies and install solar for Commercial and Residential use and trust me, I know all about cost to expense analysis, equipment, installation, loan options etc. Glad it worked out for you and your happy but from everything I hear as soon as the rebates stop, the overall cost to the private party will kill sales and installations... At least that's what my friends in the know that are currently Solar Installers / Business Owners now are saying... Do it "Now" before you can't afford it (End of Rebate Program) is what the Word is.

Indeed, and that's really to be expected, at least when we're going from easiest ---> most difficult (forms of energy generation). That's what Brazil had to do to get their ethanol structure up and going, subsidize, subsidize, subsidize.

The other issue with the solar is how the publicly traded utilities are responding. My folks are having a hell of a time with SoCal Edison, and frankly I'm still unhappy with PG&E, they're going to make going fully off-grid w/battery bank worth it for us, very soon.

And back somewhat more to the issue at hand, while I have never really been a fan of FDR, his WPA program created a huge amount of infrastructure, infrastructure that we still use, and need, today.

Solar companies are the biggest ripoff artists going right now,lease our system for 25 years and you'll be helping to save the world blah blah blah,bullshit all of it and lots of folks are getting suckered in by this crap.
We recently sourced all the parts(top of the line)for a buddies 8 kw system,we ended up using http://www.partsonsale.com/ for the kits,around 10k$ for 8kw,the roofer charged another 1500$ to instal the racking and another 1500$ for the electrician to do final hookup,system is in and operating perfectly now.We plan on doing another buddies soon and i will end up doing mine in about a year as momma doesnt want to see those panels on our roof and my roof isnt positioned optimally so im gonna come up with another solution for panels by building my own racking that i can also park my RV under.
The downfall is you gotta pay cash/get a personal loan to do this but you will save BUCKS,for the same system.Installed the solar companies want 45-60k AND they keep the rebates (approx 30K) for themselves if its a lease.If its not a lease and you finance it will still cost you around 250(at least)a month for 20 years which is about 60K + interest.
Solar companies are raping and pillaging right now,some of the salemen make like 5 grand commission per system sold!that right there tells you how much their cornholing you.

This ^^^^ is the Argument I repeatedly have with my friends... The "Finance" that the popular system they Install is Typically around $150- $175 per Month... Big electricity bill to So. Cal Edison, during summer $250-$350 per mo. According to them, your getting "Free" solar Electricity... According to "Me" Your still paying (someone else for 20 yrs) The argument never Ends. If you can "Predict" where you are living and exactly "How" 20 years out, my hat is of to You (Not speaking to F.W. directly) because the "Rebate" you receive only happens "Once" as far as I know and many people tend to buy / sell, move around...
(EDIT) or Invest and are forced to move due to Economic Reasons :( The "Economy" can be devastating to your Health Care... Seriously

My folks got one of those 'deals' and they're not happy with it. However, it's also not part of the federal stimulus funds package, so it's not regulated the same way (as I understand it). However, a 'big' bill from SoCal Edison being only $250-$350/mth? My parents have regularly seen bills approaching a grand, no growing going on. I think I've mentioned that for us, prior to the install, we were seeing summertime power bills in the $500-$800 range, no growing going on.

Our loan didn't require us to come up with a single penny, and the regulations required that the company putting together the package keep our loan payment strictly to an average power bill. Loan is 15yrs, 0% interest (I call that free money). Not all California counties qualify for the program (in fact, I've mentioned before that Beutler STILL has funds to disburse! If you're a homeowner in a qualifying county, then you may want to let me know and I'll put you in touch with the company. It's the home energy retrofit program, so it's not specific to solar, it's much broader in scope than that.

We did it because this is the home we're going to stay in for the rest of our lives, God and Life willing.