Help Please, First time with UC12XXL13

Toaster · Oct 21, 2013

Hopefully there are some experts out there that can help out as I can't figure my problem out. I used to grow in an aero system so I don't have much experience with RDWC. I vegged 12 plants in a DIY veg that simply sprays the roots every 15 minutes or so and works very well for cloning/vegging. My plants were all vegged to about 12"-18" tall with roots that were about 12". At this point I transferred them to my new CCH2O system and switched the lighting from 24/24 to 18/6.

It has been about 12 days now and ever since then I have been seeing very slow and unhealthy looking growth. I was expecting them to just take off. I am seeing a few curls on the leafs am also seeing some of the older leaves yellow up which is unusual in veg in my experience. Here is the initial nutrient line up that I use (Mostly Botanicare nutes) which brought the PPM's to about 375. I wanted to start low as CCH2O says to start with half of your normal PPM's. Also this nutrient line up has worked very well for me in the past in an aeroponic setup.

Added to tap water @ 170 PPM out of tap:
Pure Pro Grow 480 ml
Karma 180 ml
Cal Mag 120 ml
Silica Blast 600 ml
Aquashield 900 ml
Great White 12 ml

After about a week I thought maybe they were being starved due to the yellow leafs and what I thought might be some other things that looked like nutrient deficiencies. I doubled the dose, which brought the whole system to about 570-580 PPM's. The PH has remained between 5.6 and 6.4 the whole time and hasn't had much swing. It has been a couple days since I upped the dosage but I haven't really noticed any changes.

I just can't for the life of me figure out why they aren't showing explosive growth? They were doing so well prior to the transplant. Any help would be greatly appreciated? What am I missing?

ttystikk · Oct 21, 2013

You're missing the big change in environmental conditions between an aeroponic environment and an aqueous one, even if it is well oxygenated. If you want a smooth transition between veg and bloom- and I agree it's a goal well worth the effort- then my suggestion is to run your final pre-bloom veg stage as RDWC, so there is no sudden and drastic change in what your roots experience. It works very well for me.

Toaster · Oct 21, 2013

ttystikk said:
You're missing the big change in environmental conditions between an aeroponic environment and an aqueous one, even if it is well oxygenated. If you want a smooth transition between veg and bloom- and I agree it's a goal well worth the effort- then my suggestion is to run your final pre-bloom veg stage as RDWC, so there is no sudden and drastic change in what your roots experience. It works very well for me.

ok, thanks for the response. That kind of makes sense of what might be going on how long do you think it will take them to come around, I kind of feel like they are in shock right now. Also, I am currently still in veg state as I planned to veg for 3-4 weeks in the cch2o system until my canopy was filled out. thanks

Toaster · Oct 21, 2013

Also, one other thing to mention that might be of importance is that these were all cloned in rockwool cubes, so I basically put them in the cch2o netcups and put the water level right below the rockwool cubes about 2". However I did notice that when I did this, the water level is still way above the top off reservoir nozzle in the epicenter which I thought was a little odd. Everywhere else I have read says the water level should be about 1" below the medium. Does the water level really matter that much if I already have 12" of roots that are dangling in the reservoir?

Papa · Oct 21, 2013

i have found that foliar spraying your plants when first introducing to the system is very helpful. 12 days is a long time, for whatever reason, they're experiencing shock.
what are your environmental conditions like?

"Does the water level really matter that much if I already have 12" of roots that are dangling in the reservoir?"

yes.

Toaster · Oct 21, 2013

Room temps are pretty constant at 75F lights on, 70F lights off. Humidity is around 30%-40%. Not running co2. Reservoir temps are sitting around 70F. They did get up to 74 F for about 2 days, however I have corrected that.

Does my water level sound right then? An inch or so below the rockwool cube? Or should it be higher?

Thanks

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

I'd like to see your water temps down about five degrees to 65, to improve dissolved oxygen levels. Ensure pH is right around 5.5-5.6. I would raise room temperature to 80F and definitely raise your RH- that coupled with root shock could be the cause of their malaise. Are you sure you don't have any root pathogens? Keep nutrient strength down, my best results in veg are found near 1.1 EC, or within 100ppm of 550 (EC x 500 scale). I used to run sterile and I failed. Now I am happily addicted to running a biologically alive RDWC, and regular doses of aerated compost tea inoculated with Caps bennies do for it like yogurt does for my digestion- make things run smooth and happy.

Get your RH above 60%, I've gone 15 points higher while running temps in the low 80s and my plants loved it. Fungus problems are problems of stagnation, not simple humidity, so make sure you have good air flow and circulation around and especially under your plants. Is the room open or sealed? Is there a good source of CO²? Is it possible that you did something while adding nutrients to cause a lockout situation? In situations like this, I keep asking questions and eliminating possible causes until I come up with something that fits the facts- and can't be ruled out. It might take some sleuthing, but this approach is the most reliable for me.

Toaster · Oct 22, 2013

ok thanks for the help. Attached are a few pictures of a the plants.

I am running an open system so it is kind of hard to do CO2, however the fan replaces the air in the room about every two minutes so there is a constant source of fresh air. It might be kind of hard to get the humidity up that high this early in growth with the can fan/filter exhausting the room. I am also looking at getting a chiller, I thought I may be able to get away with running at 70F with the reservoir.

I am debating on draining, cleaning and refilling the system to see if that helps. Roots look ok, they are a little brown but this is caused normally by liquid karma. They brown parts did feel a little squishier than normal so that kind of concerns me...root rot or slime comes to mind, but it has only been 12 days in this system. I ended up covering all the lids with panda film to prevent and light getting into the system as well because I did have some algae growth on some rockwool cubes. I have seen a few root aphids and fungus gnats flying around as well. I got these clones from a dispensary unfortunately, but the bug problem seems to be under control for now. Should I be looking for anything else in the reservoirs?

As far as doing anything while adding nutrients goes...I don't think I did anything wrong. They were running the same nutrient lineup in the aero vegger before I moved them over. I balanced all the nutrients in the system and ph balanced it before transferring any of the plants over. Started with low PPM's then upped it about a week later.

Part of me wants to transplant the system into soil and start a fresh new batch in the system, however I would really like to nail down what is going wrong so I don't have this issue again.

Also, do I really want to run room temps at 80? I always remember running them a little lower since I am running without co2? I will need a chiller first before I can do this. PH is currently at 5.8, i will adjust down to 5.6

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

Definitely some unhappy girls, but the lighting is making it hard to do any kind of analysis. Any chance of photos in more natural light?

I've been slimed in just 3 days, it does not take long if conditions favor it. Be certain your water and roots are in the dark, and get your temps down. I used insulating foam board to avoid any heat gain from sitting under thousand watt bulbs all day, panda film may not suffice.

Root aphids?! BAD! These can certainly cause mayhem that looks like stall and deficiency, but of course is actually the wholesale destruction of your plant's roots. Time to confirm that diagnosis and move to eradicate. You may have fungus gnats instead, these are less nasty but in large numbers can still interfere with growth. Rockwool seems to be especially susceptible, yet another reason I hate using the stuff.

Yes, 80F, if you can get your humidity up. Consider a climate controller, or at least slow down the turnover of air through your grow space, to allow humidity to build. Use a swamp cooler and this will help control temps while drastically reducing the amount of air exchange needed to control temperature.

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

It sounds like you're planning to seal your room at some point. I'm the Farm's resident water chilling evangelist- meaning that I tell people to skip the usual rat race of buying a tiny chiller for your RDWC, then an AC for the room- and then a dehuey because the AC unit doesn't manage humidity very well. All that stuff might be relatively affordable to buy piecemeal, but it adds up to a big number- and worse, that gear all tends to work against one another, making a real mess of your power bill in the process.

The solution, provided you can swallow hard for the initial expense, is to upsize your water chiller purchase to one full Ton (not one 'horsepower', which is a smaller unit of measure) per 4kW of sealed and vented lights, or 3 open or bare thouies. It will then be able to effectively chill your RDWC, cool your room and manage your humidity efficiently because each cooling function happens in symbiosis with the others- allowing you to save up to 75% on your total cooling costs over AC, and regularly 30% or better even over modern minisplit units. The difference is the chiller is an integrated solution. What's more, you could add a second room of the same size on the flip and your chiller would handle it without a hitch- the ability to send water where you want it via hose makes adding another space simple.

Toaster · Oct 22, 2013

Yah, I plan on doing something like that next summer. I would like to re-coup some cost first before I invest a lot more money.
Here are a few more pictures, hopefully with some better lighting. There was definitely a few bugs flying around and a few dead ones on the ground. I took a look again and they like like they may be root aphids. They are kind of small like the size of a fungus gnat, but they do seem to have a bit of a fatter body on them, which seems to be more like root aphids. That's the last time I get dispensary genetics. s I did dose the reservoir with some gognats last night and also sprayed all the roots.

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

GoGnats is cedar oil, and is good stuff; it effectively checks the population of fungus gnats around here, too. If you have root aphids, you have a real problem.

I still believe that raising your relative humidity is going to help your cause. If you can't spring for a chiller yet, seriously consider an environmental controller, preferably one with CO² controls for when you do go sealed. One of these will manage your room for temperature by only violating when it's actually over temperature, keeping air inside and giving it time to build up humidity.

I hope something mentioned here will help.

Toaster · Oct 22, 2013

ok thanks. I am currently running a temperature controller that brings air in from outside with a 6" can fan when it heats up too much in the room, but I also have a canfan/filter exhausting from the room 24/7 (960 cfm). At this point the only thing I can figure is that I have something going wrong in the reservoir. I am going to drain, clean and refill. I think I probably have aphids, but they do not really look that bad, there are maybe 4 or 5 flying up by the light everyday and a few dead on the ground and I haven't been able to locate them on any roots yet. Would you suggest just starting over or maybe I can dip the roots in some type of solution while I am cleaning the system? The plants were doing great a week ago in my vegger so I have a hard time believing aphids are causing this, although maybe the dwc environment provides a better breeding ground for aphids? Thanks

stickyfing3rs · Oct 22, 2013

I bet they'd turn around in a week if you dropped your ppms to like 200. they look locked out to me, too much salt during the transition probably. I usually run 150-170 after transplant. until you see healthy new growth. then bump it up slowly, like 50-100 ppm per week

Toaster · Oct 22, 2013

stickyfing3rs said:
I bet they'd turn around in a week if you dropped your ppms to like 200. they look locked out to me, too much salt during the transition probably. I usually run 150-170 after transplant. until you see healthy new growth. then bump it up slowly, like 50-100 ppm per week

ok thanks, I did start them out pretty low at about 370 ppm then bumped them up to 570 PPM. I think I might also try the cultured solution nutrients instead of using botanicaire.

By the way, my RH is now sitting around 43%, not sure if I can get it all the way to 50

stickyfing3rs · Oct 22, 2013

I don't have any experience with cs or botanicare nutes, I run house and garden aqua flakes. but I can tell you my current run I burnt em at week 3 due to 280 ppm. a lot of people will say I'm running them way too low. but I just feed them what they want and everything is always healthy. I think when running water culture nutrients are much more available at super low rates compared to any other method of growing.

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

A lot of people run very low humidity rates, and these are usually the same people who advocate for very low nutrient concentrations. These two are closely related; if it's super dry, the plant is going to be sucking up more water, so it will need less nutes.

OTOH, if RH is higher, the plant won't have to work as hard to avoid wilt and can thus put that effort into growing. Higher humidity also stimulates the uptake of available CO².

Add a swamp cooler, that will help both with humidity and will slow down the rate at which the room heats.

NWElite89 · Oct 22, 2013

Welcome to the UC!
I would personally have your ppm's no higher than 200ppm until they get situated. I have vegged my plants in single DWC buckets with plants at 14" inches that were bushy and was feeding them 380ppm. When I transferred to UC, I ran them first at 300ppm and within in a few days noticed that it was to high. Dropped them down to 200 ppm and they were loving it. Currently in my 4th week of veg and just barely touching 300ppm. Also having higher humidity (55-65) will help ya quite a bit and not make the plant struggle as much. In transition i always run lower for the first week till they get situated and then adjust accordingly. I always forget how nutrient efficient the UC is

ttystikk · Oct 22, 2013

NWElite89 said:
Welcome to the UC!
I would personally have your ppm's no higher than 200ppm until they get situated. I have vegged my plants in single DWC buckets with plants at 14" inches that were bushy and was feeding them 380ppm. When I transferred to UC, I ran them first at 300ppm and within in a few days noticed that it was to high. Dropped them down to 200 ppm and they were loving it. Currently in my 4th week of veg and just barely touching 300ppm. Also having higher humidity (55-65) will help ya quite a bit and not make the plant struggle as much. In transition i always run lower for the first week till they get situated and then adjust accordingly. I always forget how nutrient efficient the UC is

...and my counterpoint is that in my RDWC setup, if I ran nutes this weak my plants would starve overnight. I think RH makes a crucial difference here, one that people often miss or discount.

stickyfing3rs · Oct 22, 2013

I keep my rh at 60%+ till late flower. might be strain dependent, I also only run 600s...

Help Please, First time with UC12XXL13

Help Please, First time with UC12XXL13

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Help Please, First time with UC12XXL13

Help Please, First time with UC12XXL13

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