How long can I save ACT?

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 25, 2012

I am playing with a new very fast draining soil mix.

I feed, feed, water

feed , water, feed..

depending on what they are asking for.

I still haven't gotten my timing down pat.

My question is can I refrigerate an ACT and still get some life after a couple of days?

I know its best to put them to work immediately...but I am ok with a percentage of the population dying because I would still reap some benefit...even if the tea wasn't maxed out.

But would this even work? Will refrigerating the tea for, say, 48 hours kill everything?

I have found small references to storing tea but nothing quite comprehensive.

Has anybody with a scope played with refrigerated teas?

TIA

rootsnshoots · Jan 26, 2012

i think i remember someone saying they refridgerated theirs. but i haven't heard and real facts on it. im sure you lose a lot of microbes but i would imagine refridgeration would help a little in warding of those bad anaroebics? i feed mine almost every time with act and havn't had any issues. I kinda change up what i brew too though. Once a week i will only put in compost castings kelp humic acids glacial rock dust and molas since none of these can burn. Otherwise i add a mixture of seabird and bat guano and high phosphate guano depending on the stage im in.

SmokeyPipes · Jan 26, 2012

I believe you'll still get some benefits depending on what your brewing in the mix,however don't think it will be "alive" anymore at that point

CT Guy · Jan 26, 2012

You need to use it within 4 hours of brewing. Please read this article, as it's backed by actual microscopy and not stoner speculation:
http://www.gardeningwithmicrobes.com/teaarticle2.shtml

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 27, 2012

CT Guy said:
You need to use it within 4 hours of brewing. Please read this article, as it's backed by actual microscopy and not stoner speculation:
http://www.gardeningwithmicrobes.com/teaarticle2.shtml

Am I missing something?

I read that page and it doesn't say anything about using it within 4 hours?

or any testing done on refrigerated teas?

This though...

"There are a couple of schools of thought regarding brewing temperatures. One is that since the microbes in the tea will grow and reproduce most efficiently at 68-70˚F., this is the temperature at which you should brew your tea, regardless of the current soil or air temperature where you'll be applying the tea. The theory is that since you are using the shotgun approach to growing microbes, whatever microbes are unable to adapt to the conditions will either die or go dormant, becoming food resources for the other microbes in the soil. Since soil and air temperatures will change throughout the seasons and even from day to night, these organisms are highly adaptable and you will get your best results with this approach."

This paragraph leads me to believe that they may possibly go dormant at colder temps...

which is kinda why I thought refrigerated tea may have benefits.

Where does it say 4 hours? on another page or something?

You ever tested ACT after it has been in a refrigerator and them warmed back up CT? It gets colder than a refrigerator outside and they survive....

B00P · Jan 27, 2012

You should be able to refrigerate the ACT for AT LEAST a few days. I wouldn't push it past a week but that's just me. I have seen hydro-store that's sell ACT for people are keep it in the fridge until customers order it.

CT Guy · Jan 28, 2012

B00P said:
You should be able to refrigerate the ACT for AT LEAST a few days. I wouldn't push it past a week but that's just me. I have seen hydro-store that's sell ACT for people are keep it in the fridge until customers order it.

It should say 4 hours in that article. If not, it may be in the 1st part of that article (I linked to the 2nd part). That info is based on direct microscopy.

Here's the problem. As you brew longer than 36 hours, darwinism takes over and you get monocultures (survival of the fittest). This is not ideal for ACT, as the whole purpose is to create nutrient cycling (prey and predation with good microbial diversity and concentrations). Over time, you'll end up will all the same morphology of bacteria, flagellates, ciliates, and probably no fungi. The populations will swing dramatically too, as the bacteria overpopulate then the flagellates and ciliates take over as they eat all the bacteria, until the food source is gone.

As far as refrigeration goes, the issue is more about dissolved oxygen. If you take something that you just created that's highly aerobic (ACT) and take away the air pump, which is maintaining dissolved oxygen, the organisms will die and you'll start to grow anaerobic organisms or fermentations. This is NOT what you want with ACT. Hydro shops and companies that recommend this (Vermicrop) do not do adequate research or direct microscopy. They just make claims because it's convenient and makes them money.

@Buddy, you could in theory bring such a tea back, but it would not be worth the time, energy, inputs, and monitoring with a DO meter and microscope to do it properly. Yes, microbes can handle a wide range of temps and dormancy can occur, but the issue with storage and refrigeration is more about DO levels and the fact you've created essentially an unsustainable environment in your tea brewer at 24-36 hours, that's why you have to get it out on your plants ASAP.

Does that help?

B00P · Jan 28, 2012

I see your point, after 36 hours the diversity goes to shit and your losing the beneficials your really going after. Thank you for the correction.

InTheBeginning · Jan 29, 2012

Just one minor point to add to what CT guy said; The 36 hr time is not a rule written in stone, This may vary up to around 48 hours

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 29, 2012

I get what you are saying about the tea and time frame. I dont agree, I dont think... I still haven't seen anybody post up that has scoped refrigerated tea.

You and your buddy think that website of yall's is the shiznit...ok....

Man...why disrespect the guys at VermiCrop?

These guys went to UCDavis with botany and ag degrees....lol....they aren't boobs.

You are saying they dont even use scopes?... Or adequately research what they sell?

How the hell would you know that?

Crap like this is why I have a problem swallowing the stuff you say.

Thanks for stopping by though. Hopefully I will get a scope soon and answer some of my own questions.

If any farmers with a scope have looked at refreigerated tea under a scope, please post up. I would be curious to know what you saw!!....

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 29, 2012

InTheBeginning said:
Just one minor point to add to what CT guy said; The 36 hr time is not a rule written in stone, This may vary up to around 48 hours

Is that if I am using a bucket and a stick?

waayne · Jan 29, 2012

Buddy Hemphill said:
I get what you are saying about the tea and time frame. I dont agree, I dont think... I still haven't seen anybody post up that has scoped refrigerated tea.

You and your buddy think that website of yall's is the shiznit...ok....

Man...why disrespect the guys at VermiCrop?

These guys went to UCDavis with botany and ag degrees....lol....they aren't boobs.

You are saying they dont even use scopes?... Or adequately research what they sell?

How the hell would you know that?

Crap like this is why I have a problem swallowing the stuff you say.

Thanks for stopping by though. Hopefully I will get a scope soon and answer some of my own questions.

If any farmers with a scope have looked at refreigerated tea under a scope, please post up. I would be curious to know what you saw!!....

Buddy I have been having this same discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Hydro store.

his belief is that it's good for up to a week in the fridge
and he's used tea that old with no problems.....

I scoped mine when I finished brewing, then at 12 hours in the fridge and then at 24 and 48

What I observed was the longer it set around the less microbes it contained.

CT Guy nailed it>>once you take the oxygen away it starts to go anaerobic
and ferment, this is definitely not what you want for a effective ACT........

I've never used VermiCrop so I can't speak to their product but if people are saying you can refrigerate it and it's still good that doesn't really say much about the quality of their tea.

I know of no way to keep the oxygen levels up once you place it in the fridge...

High quality ACT is all about the dissolved oxygen levels.

If you want the maximum benefit from brewing ACT, use it as soon as possible after brewing.

dirk d · Jan 29, 2012

i have to agree with the guys recommending to use it right away. ive been brewing for several months now and i have used tea as old as 3 days. however the result are not that great.

imo if you want to do something then do it right. make a fresh batch of aact every couple days. invest in upgrading your brewing equipment and learn how to automate the process. i think you will get the results you want with minimal "extra" work.

InTheBeginning · Jan 29, 2012

Buddy Hemphill said:
Is that if I am using a bucket and a stick?

No sir. That is normally an 8 hour process, although some do it over a 24 hour period with success.

HumboldtDr · Jan 29, 2012

waayne said:
Buddy I have been having this same discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Hydro store.

his belief is that it's good for up to a week in the fridge
and he's used tea that old with no problems.....

I scoped mine when I finished brewing, then at 12 hours in the fridge and then at 24 and 48

What I observed was the longer it set around the less microbes it contained.

CT Guy nailed it>>once you take the oxygen away it starts to go anaerobic
and ferment, this is definitely not what you want for a effective ACT........

I've never used VermiCrop so I can't speak to their product but if people are saying you can refrigerate it and it's still good that doesn't really say much about the quality of their tea.

I know of no way to keep the oxygen levels up once you place it in the fridge...

High quality ACT is all about the dissolved oxygen levels.

If you want the maximum benefit from brewing ACT, use it as soon as possible after brewing.

hey wayne-when you looked at the scope, did you record or remember how the numbers differed the longer you left it in the fridge.? In other words....After 48 hours, was it beneficial on any level? At what point, in your opinion, would you say the ACT isn't worth giving to your plants at all?

I realize the sooner the better, but sometimes i have leftovers sittin around for a few hours or so and always wonder how beneficial it is?

InTheBeginning · Jan 29, 2012

If one is faced with a choice between storing non-aerated finished ACT at room temperature or refrigerated; because higher DO2 levels are more easily acheived and maintained at cooler temperatures, then refrigeration may win out over sitting at room temperature. This does not mean I recommend this. It is just logic. Buddy, thanks for the suggestion. Next brew, I'll stick some in the refrigerator and see what happens.

We have stored small volumes of finished ACT for 3 days by keeping an airstone bubbling in it. Looking through the scope, it did degrade some but was mostly over-run by ciliates.

HumboldtDr · Jan 29, 2012

very good to know^^^^. I also keep a small airstone in there to try to extend the 'lifespan' of my tea.

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 29, 2012

waayne said:
Buddy I have been having this same discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Hydro store.

his belief is that it's good for up to a week in the fridge
and he's used tea that old with no problems.....

I scoped mine when I finished brewing, then at 12 hours in the fridge and then at 24 and 48

What I observed was the longer it set around the less microbes it contained.

CT Guy nailed it>>once you take the oxygen away it starts to go anaerobic
and ferment, this is definitely not what you want for a effective ACT........

I've never used VermiCrop so I can't speak to their product but if people are saying you can refrigerate it and it's still good that doesn't really say much about the quality of their tea.

I know of no way to keep the oxygen levels up once you place it in the fridge...

High quality ACT is all about the dissolved oxygen levels.

If you want the maximum benefit from brewing ACT, use it as soon as possible after brewing.

sweet..thanks wayne!

Two questions...

Did you warm the tea up before you scoped it?

Did you frig the concentrated tea or diluted?

It would be cool to look at them both ways...cold and warm...to see what "wakes up" from the cold dormancy.

Good info guys..thanks!!

CT Guy · Jan 29, 2012

Buddy Hemphill said:
I get what you are saying about the tea and time frame. I dont agree, I dont think... I still haven't seen anybody post up that has scoped refrigerated tea.

You and your buddy think that website of yall's is the shiznit...ok....

Man...why disrespect the guys at VermiCrop?

These guys went to UCDavis with botany and ag degrees....lol....they aren't boobs.

You are saying they dont even use scopes?... Or adequately research what they sell?

How the hell would you know that?

Crap like this is why I have a problem swallowing the stuff you say.

Thanks for stopping by though. Hopefully I will get a scope soon and answer some of my own questions.

If any farmers with a scope have looked at refreigerated tea under a scope, please post up. I would be curious to know what you saw!!....

Buddy,

It's people like you that keep me from posting on this site. You think you know everything based on anecdotal evidence, yet refuse to actually do the work or research yourself when it comes to direct microscopy.

As for Vermicrop, here's why I mentioned them in my first post.

They sell a 5 gallon unit for around $400 that uses a water pump that is hidden. Material to brew in their brewer is something like $80 a brew. That's thievery in my book. Take a look around the ACT industry outside of the hydro market. There's nothing special about their product. In my opinion they have an inferior design. They have good marketing, I'll give you that, but I'd be shocked if any of them have hort degrees. They looked and acted like a bunch of young mj growers who put together a good marketing plan. I met them at an industry event in Vegas about 4-5 years ago. The owners are in their late 20s and early 30s. They showed up the first day and manned their booth for about half the time. The next day they didn't make it in until the afternoon and left their booth empty because they were all hungover from dropping tens of thousands of dollars at a VIP table at a big name club. That's not how a serious botanist or horticulturist conducts themselves in my book. They have 1 SFI test that I've seen on their compost, and I haven't seen any on their tea. They make claims regarding refrigeration without any data to support it. Don't call my comments "crap" without doing a bit of research yourself!

You don't "think" you agree with me? I don't care whether you agree with me or not, but at least I get off my ass and do a little research on a subject before I give advice. I don't have to prove myself to you. I even gave you the logical reasoning behind why it doesn't work. Either step up or stop commenting on my posts please, I have yet to see you contribute anything of substance to this thread.

Buddy Hemphill · Jan 29, 2012

CT Guy said:
Buddy,

It's people like you that keep me from posting on this site. You think you know everything based on anecdotal evidence, yet refuse to actually do the work or research yourself when it comes to direct microscopy.

As for Vermicrop, here's why I mentioned them in my first post.

They sell a 5 gallon unit for around $400 that uses a water pump that is hidden. Material to brew in their brewer is something like $80 a brew. That's thievery in my book. Take a look around the ACT industry outside of the hydro market. There's nothing special about their product. In my opinion they have an inferior design. They have good marketing, I'll give you that, but I'd be shocked if any of them have hort degrees. They looked and acted like a bunch of young mj growers who put together a good marketing plan. I met them at an industry event in Vegas about 4-5 years ago. The owners are in their late 20s and early 30s. They showed up the first day and manned their booth for about half the time. The next day they didn't make it in until the afternoon and left their booth empty because they were all hungover from dropping tens of thousands of dollars at a VIP table at a big name club. That's not how a serious botanist or horticulturist conducts themselves in my book. They have 1 SFI test that I've seen on their compost, and I haven't seen any on their tea. They make claims regarding refrigeration without any data to support it. Don't call my comments "crap" without doing a bit of research yourself!

You don't "think" you agree with me? I don't care whether you agree with me or not, but at least I get off my ass and do a little research on a subject before I give advice. I don't have to prove myself to you. I even gave you the logical reasoning behind why it doesn't work. Either step up or stop commenting on my posts please, I have yet to see you contribute anything of substance to this thread.

Had you stopped posting? I didn't notice.

So you have a problem with these guys partying in Vegas?.....lol....and that makes their tea suck and their degrees invalid?....

lol...ok.

Stop commenting on your posts?....dude...I started this thread...

please go away if all you want to do is argue.

There have been several good points made here...whether you agree or not.

If you want to fight...take it to private messaging.

I want to learn...and I dont have a scope...so I lean on fellow farmers.

Why dont you post up your test results from refrigerated tea? That would be cool.

If not...go on.

How long can I save ACT?

How long can I save ACT?

Buddy Hemphill

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