Last 6 crops have hermed, but why?

T3ddy · May 10, 2020

Hi guys, I'm hoping to get some help as to why my crops keep herming.

I've been growing for around 10 years, aside from the first couple of grows I have never faced any herm issues until 6 crops ago where they all hermed. I've always bought my seeds from Royal Queen which have been amazing, until issues arised and I had to buy seeds elsewhere. Anyway, they turned out shit and all hermed. Next crop, same seeds, another load of herms. Assumed it was down to shitty genetics, so I trashed the remaining seeds and bought from RQ again. Started a new crop with the RQ seeds, majority of which turned hermy. Crop 4, from Barneys Farm, majority also hermed. Crop 5 (RQ again), yeah you guessed it, almost all of them hermed. Current crop (Barneys), 12/16 plants have just started to herm 2 weeks into flowering. Each crop has always been around 16 plants over the past 10 years. Strain used is usually Critical.

Routine is as follows:

Seeds into root riot cubes, then into a grow tent with the temperature at around 25C.
After germination, they go into 4" pots with Biobizz light mix under a 250cfl light. Temperature 24-25C (20-21C with lights off) humidity at 68%. They are topped (once) when they get their 5th set of leaves. They are fed water (pH @ 6.0, checked every single time) for around a week when needed. 18-6 light schedule.
After around 4-5 weeks, they're moved into 22 litre pots with more Biobizz light mix and put into a tent with 4x 600W HPS lights (only 2 are switched on at this point). Temperature at 26C (20-21C with lights off), humidity at 50%. Stay on an 18-6 schedule until the plants reach around 35 centimetres. Fan circling air around, but not touching the plants directly.
After getting to that size, they're spread out more and the other 2 lights turned on (4 plants per light). Switch to a 12-12 schedule. Humidity at 50%, temperature at 26-27C (20-21C with lights off). Fan circling air around, but not touching the plants directly.

Feed schedule:
I use this schedule from BioBizz. Exceptions being I don't bother with the Heaven, and I use Grow instead of Fish-Mix. Calcium additive added as per the dosage on the bottle. pH is at 6.2 (using pH up or down to achieve this) and is checked every single feed religiously. They have around 10 litres between them all, sometimes a little more if necessary. If they don't need feeding, they're left to be checked the following day. I don't feed until there's runoff (as is stated on the feed schedule I linked, and tbh it's something I've never done anyway).

I've checked for light leaks many many times and there's nothing at all, it's 100% pitch black. Air circulating via a 6" inlet and outlet. They have never shown any symptoms of light/heat stress. The temperature/humidity is checked multiple times a day. The temp/humid sensor is positioned at the canopy of the tallest plant, and there is one at either end of the room.

Sorry, this was long af, I just wanted to get as much detail in as possible and hopefully saved from another miserable, stressful crop.

Thanks, T3ddy

Jimster · May 10, 2020

What type of Herming are you seeing? A shitload of male flows, a bunch of pistils during vegging? The current genetic situation is pretty shakey with a ton of unfavorable traits sneaking in with the wanton hybrids being thrown out there. I have to admit that you have a pretty steady track record of having hermed plants... I might find a single male flower here or there on a 7 ft plant,but I've never had any issues like you are having. I have noticed most of the newer strains throw pistils during vegging, but that is different than a herm. Do you have any heat sources that could be giving off IR? Aside from stress and light leaks, I don't know of any other reasons for it other than genetics... but I don't think that the seed vendors you named have poor products. It has to be something in the environment. No power indicator lights?
I don't think that your nutes or watering style have much effect, unless you are getting a little salty, but even that doesn't usually cause herm issues. This is a stumper! Any chance of getting some pictures?

MIMedGrower · May 10, 2020

If i keep my 2 600 hps flower room at 27 celcius (80 farenheight) for extended periods it is too hot and causes leaf stress and hermies sometimes.

My room likes 77-78 under the lights max.

One drop · May 10, 2020

It’s probably genetics .

T3ddy · May 10, 2020

Jimster said:
What type of Herming are you seeing? A shitload of male flows, a bunch of pistils during vegging? The current genetic situation is pretty shakey with a ton of unfavorable traits sneaking in with the wanton hybrids being thrown out there. I have to admit that you have a pretty steady track record of having hermed plants... I might find a single male flower here or there on a 7 ft plant,but I've never had any issues like you are having. I have noticed most of the newer strains throw pistils during vegging, but that is different than a herm. Do you have any heat sources that could be giving off IR? Aside from stress and light leaks, I don't know of any other reasons for it other than genetics... but I don't think that the seed vendors you named have poor products. It has to be something in the environment. No power indicator lights?
I don't think that your nutes or watering style have much effect, unless you are getting a little salty, but even that doesn't usually cause herm issues. This is a stumper! Any chance of getting some pictures?

Just finding a ball or two (definitely not calyxes) amongst most of the female flowers. Inside the balls are like bananas. I've found a couple that clearly have pollen inside. I've been going in there every night and picking them off as I see them as I absolutely cannot afford to throw the whole crop out.

Absolutely nothing giving off IR. The heater in there is one of those flat, see-through things, can't remember the name of them. The door and the entire room is properly sealed, and there's no kind of equipment in there giving off any light (other than the actual lights ). I've actually stood in there before for 20 minutes out of desperation just to check.

I'd have bet anything it was a genetic thing after the first 2 herm crops as it seemed like too much of a coincidence they hermed after getting seeds from a new place, but now I'm just convinced something else is going on. But you're right, it's a real stumper and we're just baffled as to what's causing it.

My lights come on in about half an hour, so when I go in to check, I'll see if I can find any more and get a picture of them.

chemistry · May 10, 2020

I've had problems with Critcial Kush from Barney's Farm herming, it was the main reason I dropped it from my perpetual grow, the pollen from the herms made me weeze. lol

T3ddy · May 10, 2020

MIMedGrower said:
If i keep my 2 600 hps flower room at 27 celcius (80 farenheight) for extended periods it is too hot and causes leaf stress and hermies sometimes.

My room likes 77-78 under the lights max.

Ah, this is interesting. Now I'm wondering if I should drop the temperature to 25C (77F) on the next grow.

T3ddy · May 10, 2020

One drop said:
It’s probably genetics .

Am I really that unlucky to get shitty genetics with 6 different strains from 3 different vendors though?

MIMedGrower · May 10, 2020

T3ddy said:
Ah, this is interesting. Now I'm wondering if I should drop the temperature to 25C (77F) on the next grow.

Also i like to back away the lamps a couple inches during ripening to further protect the trichomes. Seems to have increased flavor and potency.

MIMedGrower · May 10, 2020

T3ddy said:
Am I really that unlucky to get shitty genetics with 6 different strains from 3 different vendors though?

I find that unlikely.

Ina · May 10, 2020

T3ddy said:
Am I really that unlucky to get shitty genetics with 6 different strains from 3 different vendors though?

If its one breeder'stock ok,looks like its the genes.But if it happen every time with lots of different strains and vendors common sense say its in the enviorment/feeding........But hey who knows may be you were really,really unlucky?!:)Wish you luck next time!:)

PipeCarver · May 10, 2020

T3ddy said:
Just finding a ball or two (definitely not calyxes) amongst most of the female flowers. Inside the balls are like bananas. I've found a couple that clearly have pollen inside. I've been going in there every night and picking them off as I see them as I absolutely cannot afford to throw the whole crop out.

Absolutely nothing giving off IR. The heater in there is one of those flat, see-through things, can't remember the name of them. The door and the entire room is properly sealed, and there's no kind of equipment in there giving off any light (other than the actual lights ). I've actually stood in there before for 20 minutes out of desperation just to check.

I'd have bet anything it was a genetic thing after the first 2 herm crops as it seemed like too much of a coincidence they hermed after getting seeds from a new place, but now I'm just convinced something else is going on. But you're right, it's a real stumper and we're just baffled as to what's causing it.

My lights come on in about half an hour, so when I go in to check, I'll see if I can find any more and get a picture of them.

Is there any chance light comes through a vent when the exhaust kicks on or the corner of a zipper if not tightly closed. its got to be a light leak with so many consecutive grows getting hit. I've got 6 hermies myself finishing off next week. I blame it on my dehumidifier's little blue fking light. 2 nights before I caught it. Can't see the little light during lights on but lights off it lights up the room, I usually have it covered but just left it off for 2 nights and it fked my crop.

T3ddy · May 11, 2020

PipeCarver said:
Is there any chance light comes through a vent when the exhaust kicks on or the corner of a zipper if not tightly closed. its got to be a light leak with so many consecutive grows getting hit. I've got 6 hermies myself finishing off next week. I blame it on my dehumidifier's little blue fking light. 2 nights before I caught it. Can't see the little light during lights on but lights off it lights up the room, I usually have it covered but just left it off for 2 nights and it fked my crop.

Checked again today for light leaks, and nothing. Not a single thing. I can't even see my hand in front of my face, it's 100% pitch black. Door is solid, nothing coming through vent holes, no de/humidifer in there, no lights on the heater/fans, all the switches for everything are located outside of the room.

However as I'm typing this up, I've just had a thought... Can light leaks during the 12-12 seedling stage cause plants to herm later on when they get to 18-6 flower stage (i.e. weeks later)?

growsince79 · May 11, 2020

I believe it's unintended consequences of irresponsible breeding. Fem seed and auto flowers are to blame imho. Find some old school regular seeds then make your own. Anything that herms goes to the compost pile.

Jimster · May 11, 2020

I've ranted before about the current genetics and loss of most real landrace strains, but I don't think anyone could be as unlucky as having hermed plants from different strains and different vendors... with that kind of luck, you should avoid the lottery, etc! AFAIK, light leaks during vegging shouldn't be an issue because the compound that causes the plant to flower is deactivated by light... so extra light should inhibit flowering, and herming, at least in my warped way of thinking. In the many years that I've been growing, I have never had a hermed plant, although I might get a sporadic male flower that drops a couple of seeds, but I'm talking maybe 2 flowers on a 7-8 ft plant, sometimes. I don't think I could make a plant herm if I tried.
The only other thing I can think of is something that you re feeding or using somewhere in your setup. Light leks seem to be the major cause of herming, but I still don't quite understand why. Some compounds, like silver products, will cause pollen sacks to form by their effects on ethelene.... you aren't using a home brew CO2 bag or anything that could give off etheylene or anything similar?
Indeed... a real stumper.

T3ddy · May 11, 2020

Jimster said:
I've ranted before about the current genetics and loss of most real landrace strains, but I don't think anyone could be as unlucky as having hermed plants from different strains and different vendors... with that kind of luck, you should avoid the lottery, etc! AFAIK, light leaks during vegging shouldn't be an issue because the compound that causes the plant to flower is deactivated by light... so extra light should inhibit flowering, and herming, at least in my warped way of thinking. In the many years that I've been growing, I have never had a hermed plant, although I might get a sporadic male flower that drops a couple of seeds, but I'm talking maybe 2 flowers on a 7-8 ft plant, sometimes. I don't think I could make a plant herm if I tried.
The only other thing I can think of is something that you re feeding or using somewhere in your setup. Light leks seem to be the major cause of herming, but I still don't quite understand why. Some compounds, like silver products, will cause pollen sacks to form by their effects on ethelene.... you aren't using a home brew CO2 bag or anything that could give off etheylene or anything similar?
Indeed... a real stumper.

This is why I don't think it's entirely a genetic thing in my case. There's just no way my luck can be this piss poor.

With regards to your feed comment, I'm using the Biobizz schedule (clicky link in my OP), it says to use Fish-Mix during the first couple of weeks, then swap to Grow when you switch to flowering. But I straight up use Grow from the start during veg, although I've googled about this and it seems others do the same. Only other things that get added to the feed are calcium and pH up/down.

Oh gosh no, nothing like that. But now you have me thinking... In my grow room, it's not a tent, but a purpose-built room room. The lining is silver reflective material, kind of like that reflective garage insulation stuff, kinda looks like silver bubble wrap. The room is relatively big, so of course there's a lot of it. Would that have ethylene?

Do you mind if I ask, are you growing from fem seeds?

PipeCarver · May 11, 2020

T3ddy said:
This is why I don't think it's entirely a genetic thing in my case. There's just no way my luck can be this piss poor.

With regards to your feed comment, I'm using the Biobizz schedule (clicky link in my OP), it says to use Fish-Mix during the first couple of weeks, then swap to Grow when you switch to flowering. But I straight up use Grow from the start during veg, although I've googled about this and it seems others do the same. Only other things that get added to the feed are calcium and pH up/down.

Oh gosh no, nothing like that. But now you have me thinking... In my grow room, it's not a tent, but a purpose-built room room. The lining is silver reflective material, kind of like that reflective garage insulation stuff, kinda looks like silver bubble wrap. The room is relatively big, so of course there's a lot of it. Would that have ethylene?

Do you mind if I ask, are you growing from fem seeds?

I've read a couple of things you've said that to me are not normal.
Seedlings 12/12? then to 18/6 ?? Why do you do that? I go 18/6 from the start - 20/4 - 12/12 Starting at 12/12? What's with that?
Also why do you need 22L pots for plants 1 ft tall? I finish in 11.9 L or 3 gallon pots. I feed or water until I get runoff and that takes 1 gallon water or feed depending. I find it too hard to tell watering needs with large pots.
I don't ph my input water but I do ph my runoff and check ppm. I think it more important to know what condition your soil is in ( through runoff readings) than guessing by phing your input liquid.

Flowering nutes all the way through grow?

I make my mistakes to my man and I'm just blowing in the wind some of the things that strike me with your growing. I'm not an expert by any means i'm just a basement grower as yourself.

I'm not sure if any of those things would cause hermies but something your doing isn't right. I'd suggest getting back to basics.
Seed
water
light
proper nutes through the stages
18/6 until they reach the size you want
12/12 until they're done

T3ddy · May 12, 2020

PipeCarver said:
I've read a couple of things you've said that to me are not normal.
Seedlings 12/12? then to 18/6 ?? Why do you do that? I go 18/6 from the start - 20/4 - 12/12 Starting at 12/12? What's with that?
Also why do you need 22L pots for plants 1 ft tall? I finish in 11.9 L or 3 gallon pots. I feed or water until I get runoff and that takes 1 gallon water or feed depending. I find it too hard to tell watering needs with large pots.
I don't ph my input water but I do ph my runoff and check ppm. I think it more important to know what condition your soil is in ( through runoff readings) than guessing by phing your input liquid.

Flowering nutes all the way through grow?

I make my mistakes to my man and I'm just blowing in the wind some of the things that strike me with your growing. I'm not an expert by any means i'm just a basement grower as yourself.

I'm not sure if any of those things would cause hermies but something your doing isn't right. I'd suggest getting back to basics.
Seed
water
light
proper nutes through the stages
18/6 until they reach the size you want
12/12 until they're done

Sorry, that was definitely a typo, now I can't edit it for some reason. They're on 18-6 until the plants are 35-40cm, then switched over to 12-12.

Those sized pots were what we were told to use back at the very start, and honestly I've never thought any different. But, I'm gonna try and grab some 12L for the next grow.

The next grow I'll start feeding until runoff too.

DGrowgirl · Aug 23, 2020

My best guess is that your grow space is contaminated with pollen. If it is a tent, replace it. Otherwise, clean the area and all equipment thoroughly.

GNick55 · Aug 24, 2020

DGrowgirl said:
My best guess is that your grow space is contaminated with pollen. If it is a tent, replace it. Otherwise, clean the area and all equipment thoroughly.

pollen dies within 3 days

Last 6 crops have hermed, but why?

Last 6 crops have hermed, but why?

T3ddy

Jimster

MIMedGrower

One drop

Bush Doctor

T3ddy

chemistry

T3ddy

T3ddy

MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

Ina

PipeCarver

T3ddy

growsince79

Jimster

T3ddy

PipeCarver

T3ddy

DGrowgirl

GNick55

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