More Damaged Plant Leaves

konakings · Dec 30, 2012

Hello All,

Here are some pics of my damaged leaves. Was wondering if anyone can just look at them and see what is wrong? I already checked out the links below but wanted the hive minds opinion. In my opinion, it looks like necrosis with either a Potassium deficiency or a Manganese deficiency? The charts line up. I am using a new JR peters lineup and am not supplementing with cal mag in coco. I believe I should flush with RO and a low dose of cal mag. Then feed with a potassium supplement at like 1ml/gallon. However, Im a bit at a loss of how to get more Manganese, or if maybe I am just experiencing lockout for some other reason. PH swings from 5.8 to 6.1 on a drip DTW system in coco beds. Some have run this way without problems but I believe I am not one.

Thank you for your positive contribution.

putembk · Dec 30, 2012

cal/mag def.

konakings · Dec 30, 2012

I thought the Mag in Cal Mag was Magnesium not Manganese. Are they different? Thanks Putembk

putembk · Dec 30, 2012

konakings said:
I thought the Mag in Cal Mag was Magnesium not Manganese. Are they different? Thanks Putembk

magnesium, you can buy cal/mag at any grow store.

konakings · Dec 30, 2012

Yup I have a bottle of CalMag and understand its purpose. Wasnt using it as I thought the JR peters lineup plus some CalNit would be sufficient. Should I just water in with a heavy dose of calmag? Like 5ml/gallon? Thanks Putembk

SmokeyPipes · Dec 30, 2012

What stage are these in? Looks like a phosphorous deficiency to me!

konakings · Dec 30, 2012

Early Bloom, Early week 2 but Phosphorous does not cause necrosis.

putembk · Dec 30, 2012

I use more, however it depends on your situation. If you use r/o water you will need to add more. Some strains require more, as in your case. Try double the amount you are currently giving as you have a pretty bad deficiency. Also, stop the stuff 30 days before harvest or the smoke will be hot. imo

nMEEKS · Dec 30, 2012

I'm surprised that you have any leaves looking like that one Kona since you are running the Jacks line. What ppm are you feeding at? and what ratio of Jacks Hydro : Cal-Nit : Epsom salts are you using? How often are you watering? I would recommend lowering you pH to around 5.5 or 5.6 and trying to keep it there. The Jacks line has all of its N from Nitrate, which means your media pH is constantly going to be drifting up, if you feed just below the ideal pH, it seems to work best. If you have the products on hand, you will see a faster correction of the deficiency if you foliar feed the nutrients you are deficient in. I recommend putting .5-1g of Jack's Hydro into a liter of water and foliar feed with that. It looks like a little P, Mg, and Ca deficiency to me, which is why I asked what ppm you are feeding, perhaps you are just under or over feeding and causing lockout of just not providing enough.

putembk · Dec 30, 2012

nMEEKS said:
I'm surprised that you have any leaves looking like that one Kona since you are running the Jacks line. What ppm are you feeding at? and what ratio of Jacks Hydro : Cal-Nit : Epsom salts are you using? How often are you watering? I would recommend lowering you pH to around 5.5 or 5.6 and trying to keep it there. The Jacks line has all of its N from Nitrate, which means your media pH is constantly going to be drifting up, if you feed just below the ideal pH, it seems to work best. If you have the products on hand, you will see a faster correction of the deficiency if you foliar feed the nutrients you are deficient in. I recommend putting .5-1g of Jack's Hydro into a liter of water and foliar feed with that. It looks like a little P, Mg, and Ca deficiency to me, which is why I asked what ppm you are feeding, perhaps you are just under or over feeding and causing lockout of just not providing enough.

why didn't you just ask him in the first place???

konakings · Dec 31, 2012

Thanks Nmeeks. Putembk, I invited him here to comment. We had a discussion going on in another thread about JR Peters. I water once a day, DTW in my coco bed. Feeding around 700-800 ppm with a ph of 5.7 - 6.0. I use the "3-2-1" ratio or so. 3 grams of Jacks Pro, 1.8 grams of Cal Nit, and .75 gram of Epsom Salts. Also using MOST and some Protek 2ml / gallon. I think I might add some calmag in regularly to prevent this.

I will be feeding with a heavy dose of Calmag, and will foliar with a small amount of Jacks, and CalMag.

putembk · Dec 31, 2012

Well it seems as if nMEEKS knows what you are doing and I would listen to what he says. Here is what I know and have experienced in the past. Your def started long ago and you can salvage your crop to some extent. The damage that is done cannot be corrected but you can save your harvest with the cal/mag. I would stop a month before harvest because if you don't there will be a difference in the final product. Good luck.

Seamaiden · Dec 31, 2012

konakings said:
Early Bloom, Early week 2 but Phosphorous does not cause necrosis.

Yes it does. You can see in the pictographic chart you posted.

Since you're only showing one leaf, and it's not still on the plant, that makes it that much harder for anyone to help with a diagnosis. It doesn't look Ca- to me, nor does it look Mg-. But if those minerals are off, the P won't be utilized well.

If you add Cal-Mag to the MgSO4, you're going to be adding more Mg on top of the Mg you're already adding. Just add Ca if you're going to do it. Address the P issue, and more whole plant pix would help.

nMEEKS · Dec 31, 2012

Seamaiden said:
Yes it does. You can see in the pictographic chart you posted.

Since you're only showing one leaf, and it's not still on the plant, that makes it that much harder for anyone to help with a diagnosis. It doesn't look Ca- to me, nor does it look Mg-. But if those minerals are off, the P won't be utilized well.

If you add Cal-Mag to the MgSO4, you're going to be adding more Mg on top of the Mg you're already adding. Just add Ca if you're going to do it. Address the P issue, and more whole plant pix would help.

Seamaiden is on top of it as always! Showing whole plant shots when asking for help with a deficiency is very important because based on where the symptoms show up first the answer may be completely different. P deficiency can certainly cause necrosis and if there is any Mg def, it would probably be associated with the P def you definitely seem to have. I think the cause of your problem is most likely the Protekt you are adding to the reservoir. Protekt is K2Si03, which means you are adding more K to a mix that already runs at the very max K value. K toxicity can cause many issues in a garden, and I have a feeling that too much K combined with a slightly high pH is what is causing the problems your having! If you drop your K by dropping the Silica, your plants will better be able to mobilize the current levels of Mg and Ca because the tension in the root zone will be decreased because of the decreased salt levels, and those two elements can be finicky when it comes to getting them moving through the transpiration stream with high root zone tension. If pro-tekt silica is a must for you, try foliar feeding it at a rate of 1.2ml per liter.

If you want to give it a shot, and have the materials on hand, this is most likely going to be the next mix I try whenever I make a new batch of nutrients.

(Copy and paste from Y.S. on another site.)
100-80-100-117-40 N-P-K-Ca-Mg. On top of that I add a cup per cubic ft of CaCO3 (to peat) or CaSO4 (to coco).

Per gallon of water I add...CaNO3 2.44 grams, Epsom 1.6g, MKP 1.33g, STEM/MOST 0.1g and Fe dpta 0.1g

konakings · Dec 31, 2012

Thank you everyone who chimed in. I fed a H&G A&B base solution with a 5ml of CalMag / gallon. No foliar as of yet. Now they have the dreaded claw.... 650ppm 6.1 ph, My runoff is the same

And Yes it looks like a phosphorous deficiency to me as well now that I am looking at a few more leaves. What do I add to increase P?

I am thinking I should flush at this point then feed with my tea. But then what....

So I am running two different strains. The one that is showing the deficiencies is the headband. I am also running the blue cheese which is not. Both are now curling though.

konakings · Dec 31, 2012

You can clearly see the P deficiency in #2. #3 is the BC #4 is the HB

nMEEKS · Dec 31, 2012

The clawing got that severe over just 1 night? I wish I could nail down the cause of that clawing, because it shows up in my garden in at least one spot on a regular basis. Right now I am pretty sure it is caused by excess salt (burn) and I used to think it was mostly from high N, but now I am thinking it might have to do with the high K and of course, it is all about balance, so when anything is out of whack, everything goes crazy.

I recommend flushing and using your tea, and work on bringing that pH down a bit, I don't know why you are feeding above 6 in coco, 5.7 is your golden number. After you have flushed, try starting with a mix ratio of 3:2 for the Hydro:Cal-Nit and then diluting down until that ratio is a 600ppm mix. Feed that solution at 5.6pH for a few days and see what you get. Unfortunately, phosphorus deficiencies wont ever recover visually from the damage already done, but you can watch for the problem to stop progressing or see if it is getting worse and make a decision from there.

Seamaiden · Jan 1, 2013

P problem, which is going to be difficult at this point for me to help you tease apart because I have never worked with those nutrients. Do they look a little stretched to anyone else?

I believe clawing, the dark green and reddened petioles are all associated with P uptake problems, but I also associate dark green leaves with burnt tips, especially if they claw, as being N+. Unfortunately, now that Meeks has pointed it out, there's also an excess or imbalance of K, and again, it's a balancing game that I haven't encountered and don't feel comfortable saying you should do x, y and z. If you're growing in coir, I do suggest dropping pH and letting it range, 5.8-6.2 and letting it range occasionally outside those parameters (I see Meeks is recommending a rock solid 5.7, I haven't found that to be the sweet spot with my set-up, more like 6.0 with most strains, but again they do tend to be different). I will say that IME they don't perform well if you let pH range too far above 6, so I rarely use a pH higher than 6.3. It's easier to let it get lower and still see good results, than go higher.

DEFINITELY stop adding K to the coir! Also, separate out the Ca from the Mg, use something like Biolink 6% Ca, or Calplex or something that's separate.

SmokeyPipes · Jan 1, 2013

Dude,What kind of lights are you running in there,and far away are they? Like Seamaiden said those definitely look a bit stretchy and thin for that stage!Seriously need to rethink everything your doing and learn how to grow one plant successfully before you fill up an entire room. Hopefully these guys can steer you in the right direction and your grow will be salvaged,but until you learn how to properly use those nutes,you'll just continue have issues!!

Best of Luck,

SmokeyPipes

konakings · Jan 2, 2013

Smokey, Ive run plenty of rooms of lots of different nutrient schedules. You telling me to learn "how to grow" before I fill up a room is simply uncalled for and imho downright rude.

No shit Sherlock, until I figure out how to properly use these nutes I will have issues, hence why I am asking the hive mind what they think I might be missing. This is my first time using dry salts, and it has been an experiment. One I may repeat upon tweaking the recipe. One I may drop depending on its ease and results.

This is one tray out of my two. The other is not having the same issues this one is, aside from the curling which I believe I have pinned down.This is obviously not my best work, but most experiments (my first dry salt run), rarely achieve such status. This strain is very stretchy and I am purposefully growing them as tall stretchy coco trees. Once they reach budset I take the tallest part and lst it down so that canopy evens out. Seems to do the trick right, and they usually fill in and act like a wall of coco. My last run doing this with the full H&G lineup I saw a little under 2 per light, 2 lights per 4x8 tray. Without the current deficiencies (although they did have issues) I am having. Have they filled in as much as they usually do? No, not even. Are they experiencing a deficiency? Yeah, obviously. But to sit there and tell me I need to rethink everything with exclamation points is a little crass, and well just childish.

For the record they are air cooled raptors with 1000watt hps, run at about 24 -30 inches away.

And just because,

Thank you again SeaMaiden, Nmeeks, and Putembck for your responses. They are certainly appreciated. The girls are looking much better today after a flush with RO and a low dose of calmag, then a foliar of Caps tea.

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