Mother Plants grow old.

leadsled · Jan 14, 2014

LegalGrow said:
So what about decendants of the mothers...? A clone of a clone of a clone of a clone and so on.. let the mothers flower and harvest after a period of time and bring new mothers from the same first plant?
Is the majority thinking that these will just keep losing thc levels or is that just a seed company's sales strategy?

Keep everything healthy, keep a backup at a different location. Then should be no problem keeping a mother for 10-20-30 years. Keep making healthy clones and select the best ones to carry on the genetics.

Point being shit happens so take steps to protect yourself. Take the information for what it is. A warning and advice for what CAN happen.

One example: Grower has been growing 15years with the same clone. He takes clones from his flowering plants. Went good until one time his plants got pm, his clones were not as healthy and not as many rooted. He went and flowered them and yield was down. Slowly thing went downhill, the worker kept getting blamed for the problems. Testing the thc shows it was 13-15%
Went back to papa and got a healthy clone to start a new mom. Back on track. Testing at 17-19% again.

Steephilll want you to buy testing.
Testing can help you determine a problem like this.

Again the point is: shit happens so backup your genetics.

Do you think genetics are degrading? Test it out.
Do your suspect your quality is going down and you are doing the same things that brought you success before? Test.

Tools for the grower to establish a baseline to test against. A Warning for the educated to use to protect themselves.

sanvanalona said:
I do not believe this at all, and this is why. Do you like OG kush? SFV, Tahoe, or Larry? How about Sour Diesel? Blue Dream? Afgoo? GDP? All of these are extremely old strains yet they are identical in every way shape and fashion since I started growing them years ago. The flavor, look, yield, and high are all equal. IF there is a drift, or a genetic mutation due to age, then I would say that it is very weak at best because of the lack of noticeable difference from when I first grew them until now.

I have seen old strains such as U.k. cheese do much better outside than inside, but I have no past with the cheese as it is from the U.k. and has only been here since 06 so it may never have grown inside that well. I will take unhealthy plants outside in order to get them back to healthy again if necessary.....not sure if this affects the genetics though.

Seems like your missing the point.

Don't take care of your mothers and let em go to shit, give em some pest and mold, now stick it outside. It is a plant outside with the same problems. Is not a miracle cure. Will help a plant bounce back, but your missing the point.

IMHo the whole point is to know that It is a problem that CAN happen so take steps to avoid it. Does not mean it ALWAYS happens.
if a grower was dilligent in keeping genetics healthy and/or backups then odds of it happening are low.

Took 8 years for me to see it happen. Same clone has been around since 99. I got it back and she is back to normal.
Root aphids or broad mites can soak the vigor pout of a plant. One grower had all of his mothers die except this genetic. So phenotype is also a big part of long term vigor.

caregiverken said:
That always works for me too

You got a plant you tested at the lab and it was lower thc, so you stuck it outside and then was able to get the thc % back up?

Don't taze me broscience!

Chronic Monster · Jan 14, 2014

great disccusion

leadsled · Jan 14, 2014

sanvanalona said:
I think you are misunderstanding what I am referring to as a "sick" plant. I do not mean one infested with RA, Broads, Russets, PM, or spiders, just ones that have become hard to clone or do not look too healthy under my t-5 or mh and put them outside. (Although I have seen PM disappear completely from being in the full sun) I have seen many clones/plants bounce back if you will from almost certain death, to become great viable moms by putting them outside. Have you ever grown under the natural light in the sky? It is really amazing what the sun can do for plants that have been inside for too long, I am sure science will concur with my observation. I am also sure that Ken was not saying that his thc percentage went up from being outside. If what steephill is saying was true, why would we still have all the clone only strains? The Sour Diesel is over 20 years old and still produces super fire and epic yields if grown under the right conditions. Or true Og for that matter, that one has and always will be a finnicky little gal but nothing has changed with her in over 20 years of being grown. Where I currently live, many strains have originated in the area. These strains have managed to be continued in propagation for generations with no visible signs of diminished quality, they have been through the ringer and back of every infestation and are still producing epic crops every year: case in point Afgooey!

I am not saying that Steephill is entirely wrong, I know that they are legit and have scientific evidence to back up what they are saying to a degree, just that if there is a difference/drift it is very minimal in noticing the effects. I mean if every strain degrades over time, then would it be safe to assume that every og/sour other strains that were tested by Steephill when they started are now testing lower?

You said in your 1st post that you don't believe it at all. That was kinda closed minded. Look at it from a different perspective.

You are the religious fanatic and I am the darwinian. You say god did it and I say it was evolution. :) We can never agree. I have no problem with that.

I posted to share, not intending to put anyone down, just to investigate all the details. So many factors in place.
You need a mutation for dna to degrade. You never mentioned sick plants in your 1st post. Maybe you missed where I posted some of the reasons for dna mutations and what can cause them?
I stated reasons that can cause mutation above. Yes disease is one potential mutator.

Yes been there done that. Put a plant outside. Got rid of mites or pm, got her back into the zone. Yes works wonders. Does it reverse mutations??? I don't know.

If the plant was able to be taken back into the zone by putting her outside. then maybe was not a dna mutation.

Or maybe the uva or sun can cause a reverse mutation?

Another possibility.

To not weigh out all possibilities, Reverse mutation are rare but can happen as well.

We do not know for sure unless we test the dna.

Never said there are not genetics around for 20+ year and still are hitting. People has multiple back up and can get her back. Therefore keeping it going 10-20-30 years. Where I live the same degraded genetics are around same with ones that are not mutated.

imo, not safe to assume all genetics have been mutated.

Peace and thanks for sharing.

Seamaiden · Jan 14, 2014

I'll have to look a bit longer for the thread, but there's another discussion regarding genetic drift vs phenotypical 'mutation' (variation?) and what it really means, especially in the world of cloning. Considering how light quality alone can affect nutrient uptake, considering how that may affect... geez, a whole slew of life and reproduction processes...? I don't know what to think, because I'm not sure how to eliminate well enough all variables in the typical growing scenario. Even placement in the same outdoor garden or field is slightly different--just look at a field or orchard well into the season and you'll immediately notice that some areas are doing better than others. Seems to me that outside of actual genetic testing, on whatever level is required, 'we' would have to first eliminate *all* variables. Easy to put in a sentence, not so to accomplish.

Seamaiden · Jan 14, 2014

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ss-of-vigor-over-generations-of-clones.35430/

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/why-plant-clones-arent-identical.38674/#post-670145

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/to-clone-a-clone.47540/

salmonslammer · Jan 15, 2014

I have noticed over the years that if you bring an old weak plant outside like sanvanaola said that yes the increased wavelenths of lite does seem to inject new vigor into the plant whether that is based on science or not im not sure just personal observations:D

caregiverken · Jan 15, 2014

salmonslammer said:
I have noticed over the years that if you bring an old weak plant outside like sanvanaola said that yes the increased wavelenths of lite does seem to inject new vigor into the plant whether that is based on science or not im not sure just personal observations:D

thats been my personal observation also..

PButter · Jan 15, 2014

Thats ^^^ why veg room is chock full of different lighting. led,hps, mh, t5, iGrow... i think thats it for now.

sanvanalona · Jan 15, 2014

leadsled said:
You said in your 1st post that you don't believe it at all. That was kinda closed minded. Look at it from a different perspective.

You are the religious fanatic and I am the darwinian. You say god did it and I say it was evolution. :) We can never agree. I have no problem with that.

I posted to share, not intending to put anyone down, just to investigate all the details. So many factors in place.
You need a mutation for dna to degrade. You never mentioned sick plants in your 1st post. Maybe you missed where I posted some of the reasons for dna mutations and what can cause them?
I stated reasons that can cause mutation above. Yes disease is one potential mutator.

Yes been there done that. Put a plant outside. Got rid of mites or pm, got her back into the zone. Yes works wonders. Does it reverse mutations??? I don't know.

If the plant was able to be taken back into the zone by putting her outside. then maybe was not a dna mutation.

Or maybe the uva or sun can cause a reverse mutation?

Another possibility.

To not weigh out all possibilities, Reverse mutation are rare but can happen as well.

We do not know for sure unless we test the dna.

Never said there are not genetics around for 20+ year and still are hitting. People has multiple back up and can get her back. Therefore keeping it going 10-20-30 years. Where I live the same degraded genetics are around same with ones that are not mutated.
imo, not safe to assume all genetics have been mutated.

Peace and thanks for sharing.

Hey there. I deleted the above quoted post about four minutes after posting because I had not read what you posted earlier about stains being able to stay healthy by being backed up and other possible factors in a strain degrading. Now to deal with some things here.
CREATION VS EVOLUTION:
First, I am not an absolutist and am always open to change. I can see where I come off differently when I said "I don't believe that at all", this would have been much more appropriate: " I have not seen that at all". In this cannabis world observation seems to be the best tool at our disposal or our first step in a scientific approach to understanding cannabis, this I try to practice as much as possible. Therefore, when a testing lab like steephill says something that seemed definitive I am going to question and juxtapose their position to my observations. I would simply like to see some more evidence of DNA mutations or drifts.

Ultimately, I think we are in more agreement than not! Hope all is well.

caveman4.20 · Jan 15, 2014

My first few years I learned so much from fucking shit up I mean I learned how to grow hermies infested with aphids ....after years of applying prevention instead of cureing or living with problems I got complacent.... with gods blessings I'll be growing again after a too long for my mental health hiatus and I am running through my mind, what I must remember, fundumentals!!! Never clone from an unhealthy host plant.... I think some farmers are blessed with primo disireable consistent environments that I'm sure they worked hard for that too but I bet after awhile

caveman4.20 · Jan 15, 2014

That plant can potentially get soft and loose resiliencey to adapt to other or new environments

caveman4.20 · Jan 15, 2014

Bottom line fir me personally is that nothing is concrete or absolute with all plants all the time. There are too many UN explained factors .....just remember that plant in the corner that goes limp with damn near anything like too hot too cold ambient air or in roots too little or to much water light too close or to far too dry too humid etc........did you ever stop too think that the plant was just attention deficient the whole time peace and chronic grease

Delerium · Feb 4, 2014

Micropropagation

Buzzbait · Feb 4, 2014

Goeybreeders goey mom is over 30 years old and still no drift,chimera had a 20 year old cali orange that he made kalizar and many other strains .Im pretty sure he lost it last year.Ive had a mom 3 years and it just got sick and died,nothing I did would save this mother

Shamus · Feb 4, 2014

i have a 28 year old skunk 1 n shes still vigorous, HOWEVER, even the slightest bit of stress, or it seems even if she just feels like it, she starts to lightly flower on a 1/4 of the plant, then a week later shes already spitting out new healthy growth on that 25% of the plant.
i just take it as shes been a live for a long ass time and wants to flower
still grows fast and yields good/smokes good

PButter · Feb 4, 2014

High five on a 28yr old skunk!

caveman4.20 · Feb 4, 2014

I would be a proud proud man leaving my family behind heirloom beans and a 28 year old vigorous mother :cigar:

leadsled · Feb 5, 2014

sanvanalona said:
Hey there. I deleted the above quoted post about four minutes after posting because I had not read what you posted earlier about stains being able to stay healthy by being backed up and other possible factors in a strain degrading. Now to deal with some things here.
CREATION VS EVOLUTION:
First, I am not an absolutist and am always open to change. I can see where I come off differently when I said "I don't believe that at all", this would have been much more appropriate: " I have not seen that at all". In this cannabis world observation seems to be the best tool at our disposal or our first step in a scientific approach to understanding cannabis, this I try to practice as much as possible. Therefore, when a testing lab like steephill says something that seemed definitive I am going to question and juxtapose their position to my observations. I would simply like to see some more evidence of DNA mutations or drifts.

Ultimately, I think we are in more agreement than not! Hope all is well.

Right on!! I agree we are in agreement. I got lots of old plants going strong. Let all hope it does not happen to us. I see this more as a precaution for what could POTENTIALLY happen, but hopefully not.

A good reminder of the tools we can use to make educated decisions if we suspect there is a problem.

There are tools and tests to see what your plants are doing. Most rather guesstimate

Has happened to my circle one time in over a decade of growing. Root aphids fucked shit up. Friend with a good clone did give it back and all is good again. Was frustrating watching quality and yield degrade.

Good growing all.

growchick421 · Feb 15, 2014

sanvanalona said:
I do not believe this at all, and this is why. Do you like OG kush? SFV, Tahoe, or Larry? How about Sour Diesel? Blue Dream? Afgoo? GDP? All of these are extremely old strains yet they are identical in every way shape and fashion since I started growing them years ago. The flavor, look, yield, and high are all equal. IF there is a drift, or a genetic mutation due to age, then I would say that it is very weak at best because of the lack of noticeable difference from when I first grew them until now.

I have seen old strains such as U.k. cheese do much better outside than inside, but I have no past with the cheese as it is from the U.k. and has only been here since 06 so it may never have grown inside that well. I will take unhealthy plants outside in order to get them back to healthy again if necessary.....not sure if this affects the genetics though.

I would assume that the come back would be due to the natural Sun light and fresh air of the great outdoors... don't know how well th a t works in the city though.

Blaze · Feb 15, 2014

Cherrorist said:
So is there any rule of thumb on how old you should let a mother get?

It is very strain dependent. This is why some moms can be 20+ years old with no problems while other will loose vigor, potency, etc within a few years, or sometimes even less. Some strains and individual plants just do not hold well in an indefinite vegetative state. Health and care of the mother also factor in as well as others point out, but genetics ultimately determine how long a mother plant can stay viable. Therefore there is not really a definitive answer to how old you should let a mother get - it could be 1 year, it could be 30. However, an asexual population cannot stay viable indefinitely, that is a well proven, scientific fact (just read some biology or plant propagation text books) - at some point the mother plant will loose vigor, potency, etc.

Take a look at the theory of "Muller's ratchet', it explains some of the reasons why this occurs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muller's_ratchet

Mother Plants grow old.

Mother Plants grow old.

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Blaze

Mother Plants grow old.

Mother Plants grow old.

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Living dead girl

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