MYTH: more roots= better yield

Capulator · Jan 12, 2012

So after I grew a plant with barely any roots (shitty brown slimy ones, not white) that gave me 6 oz in a square foot of space, I wondered...

How important are lots of white roots in hydro?

The theory: because plant roots dont need to support a plant, or search for water and food in a hydro setting... they dont need a lot of roots.

To see if more roots really does equate to more fruits in a hydro setting, or if this is a myth... I am conducting an experiment.

I am going to continuously chop the roots off one plant in my system and compare it to the one next to it (they are virtually identical in size/nodes), and see how they compare in yield and overall vigor. Here are the first pics:

The middle 2 in teh first photo upper left are the plants that will be used. Plant on the left keeps its roots, plant on the right loses its roots every week.

Top right and bottom left shows the roots from plant 2 being removed.

Bottom right shows the roots still on plant 1.

nMEEKS · Jan 12, 2012

This should be a great test! I have a feeling that we over grow our root systems too, but it really seems like you hit home with the hypothesis that in a RDWC you might not need a huge root mass. They have already proved that you can have the same or better yield with a smaller root system when you compare drip irrigation to older techniques like furrow or flood irrigation in large scale agriculture. As long as the plant never feels stressed for water or nutrients it will not express any stress and you should theoretically have equal growth and yield! My concern for the method behind your experiment is that the physical process of chopping the roots on the plant each week might cause stress that is unrelated to the plant lacking water or nutrients. As I am sure you know, the roots intake the majority of nutrients and water through small hairs that are only a cell long coming off the main white roots you see with the naked eye, by taking that plant in and out all the time and grabbing the roots to cut the ones below, seems to me like you could cause stress during the root pruning process that would throw off your comparison results. As I said to start with, this should be a great experiment, and I will be here for the ride!

-Meeks

*EDIT* Now that I think about it a little more, I know they sell huge trees in 24" and 36" boxes that can flower and fruit wonderfully before being put into the ground, and they are actually Trees, not large bushes like we grow even the biggest pot plants into. That right there seems to show that root mass may have an affect on growth rate but not on possible plant size.

TreFarmer · Jan 12, 2012

Tuned in
....
Great theories Cap...
seems it should Bonsai... will be fun to see;)
Thanks for the thread and research.

TreFarmer · Jan 12, 2012

There is no shitting or giggling going on over here...

tokinupon1 · Jan 12, 2012

Never had the balls to do this kick ass thread cap!

sticky icky · Jan 12, 2012

This is gonna be good!--Killer thread cap I'm subbed....what strain u runnin?

TrichromeFan · Jan 12, 2012

Interesting test there Cap! I am in line with meeks concern on the constant trimming possibly being a stress factor that will cloud the true answer to your test's question. With that said, please proceed. I am curious to see the outcome.

-TF

dankworth · Jan 13, 2012

I have to say, I saw where 4-5 ounce plants were grown much like yours, but with slightly less medium. Poorly engineered topdrip into a netpot that was suspended above a 1" body of water. No air in water initially. Temps were stupid. Lots of rot. Not that much root volume.
And still these 4-5 ounce plants.
Like a badly designed miniature version of northone's gig.
Seems like you could get away with a lot of mistakes with such an arrangement.
I think you are right about the roots. We need to feed root hairs like Krusty said.

Maybe chop 1/2 to 1/4 of the roots at a time, always leaving on a portion that has had time to develop the fine hairs so the specimen may always have the ability to maintain the same ideal growth rate. If all roots were chopped at once, it might make the plant stall for a bit until it regrows root tips. And maybe not. I am totally guessing here.
Thanks for taking the time here to show us this.

Capulator · Jan 13, 2012

Im just gonna keep them trimmed to how they are now. I'll root prune in the dark. It shouldnt stress the plant much since I wont be tearing roots out, just cutting them of with sharp scissors. I estimate plant 1 will have 8x the root mass as plant 2 when all said and done, given everything goes.... smoothly.

The strain is the real purple kush.

Want to plug jacks fertilizer. Never had the pk so healthy as I do now.

Crysmatic · Jan 13, 2012

first, it's called a "hypothesis"...not a "theory". Capulator's hypothesis is that yield is NOT proportional to root mass. nmeeks makes a good argument that the yield won't be proportionately lower. i think a better question is: what's the minimum root mass for best yield? the other question is what impact it has on quality?

two plants is NOT an 'experiment' in any way. i'm an engineer, and learned to design proper experiments and draw logical conclusions. you first need consistent results with a large enough population, and then change one variable at a time. i'm with nmeeks that pruning roots is an added stress (i.e. a second variable). an experiment needs to be repeatable.

a true experiment would be 16 plants in 6" cubes on one table, and 16 plants in 4" cubes on another table, all other conditions being the same, for a several cycles (drip emitters or e&f with air pruning). if Capulator's hypothesis is correct, the 4" cube (with 30% the root mass) will yield proportionately better than the 6" cube. graph the results, eliminate wonky numbers, find your average yield and standard deviation (which should be small). the plant mass has to be the same at the time of flowering (possibly different timelines). i think the results would be surprising.

Darth Fader · Jan 13, 2012

I would think it would have the potential to stress and stall them, but I see what you're saying. It may be one of those misunderstood myth issues like overwatering. Grateful H3ad pointed out that there is really no such thing as overwatering, only under-oxygenating - case-in-point proven by DWC. In this version though (bigger roots = bigger fruits), the conflation is between veg-time or mis-matched pot size.

nMEEKS · Jan 13, 2012

Good point on the hypothesis versus theory vocabulary, I edited my post to reflect your correction. I think the medium Cap is attempting to test this hypothesis in is specifically RDWC, not rockwool cubes. I think it should be interesting to find out what happens, but maybe you could sacrifice 2 plants to the root chopping, so that we at least have some kind of sample? With all that said, thanks for being such a generous person that you risk your plants yield for the benefit of all of us here to learn something new.

-Meeks

sdgrower · Jan 13, 2012

Looking forward to the show. Thanks for sharing.
:animbong:

Capulator · Jan 13, 2012

Crysmatic said:
first, it's called a "hypothesis"...not a "theory". Capulator's hypothesis is that yield is NOT proportional to root mass. nmeeks makes a good argument that the yield won't be proportionately lower. i think a better question is: what's the minimum root mass for best yield? the other question is what impact it has on quality?

two plants is NOT an 'experiment' in any way. i'm an engineer, and learned to design proper experiments and draw logical conclusions. you first need consistent results with a large enough population, and then change one variable at a time. i'm with nmeeks that pruning roots is an added stress (i.e. a second variable). an experiment needs to be repeatable.

a true experiment would be 16 plants in 6" cubes on one table, and 16 plants in 4" cubes on another table, all other conditions being the same, for a several cycles (drip emitters or e&f with air pruning). if Capulator's hypothesis is correct, the 4" cube (with 30% the root mass) will yield proportionately better than the 6" cube. graph the results, eliminate wonky numbers, find your average yield and standard deviation (which should be small). the plant mass has to be the same at the time of flowering (possibly different timelines). i think the results would be surprising.

Easy tiger.

If I chop 7/8's of the roots off of one plant, that is the same size and consistency as the others (of which there are a few more than 1), AND it yields the same... then it warrants further looking in to. That's why its a theory. This is not a full fledged lab experiment, and that is why there is no hypothesis. Too lazy for that shit. I would rather fuck with things, make observations, and speculate.

You definitely sound critical, and if that is your goal (being a dick).... maybe you should take 5 and come back when you feel more chipper.

Capulator · Jan 13, 2012

nMEEKS said:
Good point on the hypothesis versus theory vocabulary, I edited my post to reflect your correction. I think the medium Cap is attempting to test this hypothesis in is specifically RDWC, not rockwool cubes. I think it should be interesting to find out what happens, but maybe you could sacrifice 2 plants to the root chopping, so that we at least have some kind of sample? With all that said, thanks for being such a generous person that you risk your plants yield for the benefit of all of us here to learn something new.

-Meeks

I could chop another plant just to see, but honestly one is enough. If it yields around the the same as the average, I have my answer. If it yields better, then maybe Ill start chopping up all my roots.

these plants are in croutons, not that it makes a difference. Roots are roots.

DGAF.

Capulator · Jan 13, 2012

Darth Fader said:
I would think it would have the potential to stress and stall them, but I see what you're saying. It may be one of those misunderstood myth issues like overwatering. Grateful H3ad pointed out that there is really no such thing as overwatering, only under-oxygenating - case-in-point proven by DWC. In this version though (bigger roots = bigger fruits), the conflation is between veg-time or mis-matched pot size.

what do you mean here when you use conflation (to blend/fuse)? did you mean to use and instead of or? please clarify...

these plants are in the same size pots and were vegged the same. Same nutes, same lighting same everything. They are even getting the same lumens now. They have virtually the same structure, and were topped at the same time in the same place.

Venom818 · Jan 13, 2012

this going to be fun ill tag along for this one

Dodge · Jan 13, 2012

A plant must use energy to develop roots just the same as branches. An environment that discourages root growth may allow the plant to dedicate a greater percentage of overall resources to flower production. In this setting, the plant will continue to grow roots, no matter what, because it knows that the RDWC environment is root friendly. In turn, the plant will constantly use a large portion of energy to grow roots. The plant thinks it will benefit from root production. If the root environment allows for just enough root production to sustain the plant, while avoiding continuous overproduction, then the plant can dedicate all growth in a given day to flowers and branches and all parts above the root zone. I think the key is to find out how to get the plant to understand that it has plenty of roots and can now focus solely on flower production. One would need to create an environment that encourages root growth during veg or until there is sufficient growth but is not so perfect the plant chooses to create pounds of roots. This is just my THEORY. Haha, just a joke. Peace

jammie · Jan 13, 2012

i've been doing 5 gal dwc for about 5yrs and my observations have always been that the biggest plants had the biggest root mass

KennyPowers · Jan 13, 2012

not sure about hydro, interested to see the results of this test! but in coco almost every time i take note of an extra large root mass i end up noting a larger than average yield as well.

MYTH: more roots= better yield

MYTH: more roots= better yield

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Attachments

nMEEKS

Horticulturist

TreFarmer

Guest

TreFarmer

Guest

tokinupon1

sticky icky

TrichromeFan

dankworth

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Crysmatic

Darth Fader

nMEEKS

Horticulturist

sdgrower

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Venom818

Dodge

jammie

KennyPowers

MYTH: more roots= better yield

MYTH: more roots= better yield

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Attachments

nMEEKS

Horticulturist

TreFarmer

Guest

TreFarmer

Guest

tokinupon1

sticky icky

TrichromeFan

dankworth

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Crysmatic

Darth Fader

nMEEKS

Horticulturist

sdgrower

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Venom818

Dodge

jammie

KennyPowers

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