Need Some Insight Breeders

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2015

Working a feminzed line of beans that were gifted. TK x Original Bubba.

As stated the beans were femmed. During the last run one went hermie and was removed from the grow and allowed to seed.

My question is, if the plant was unstable to begin with , as in the hermie tendency.......... Ruled out environment or stress for hermie....... than will it stand to reason the seeds and any offspring from that cut will be unpredictable? In other words are the beans junk/ or will they still be all female in the genetics? I'm thinking No and I'm not a breeder. I hope that made sense. Any input is appreciated.......... Peace Farmers

hawkman · Dec 16, 2015

there will be female genetic's meaning many female seeds - what you have done is made an S-1 strain - and the quality is worth a grow

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2015

hawkman said:
there will be female genetic's meaning many female seeds - what you have done is made an S-1 strain - and the quality is worth a grow

Nice.... Thank you....... I appreciate you.

epitome · Dec 16, 2015

I'm no pro at breeding but I unfortunately have a ton of experience growing "hermie" genetics...first question is at what week did said hermie drop pollen....I ask because I've grown hermies that have no pollen, hermies that are sterile, hermies that do not drop pollen until late late flowering etc

And ofcourse the infamous hermie thats busting allover by week 4 in flowering and ;^} well we already know that's the worse kind so hopefully the shim your working with is a late pollen forming sterile herm....
Best of luck with rolling the dice dude.

gravekat303 · Dec 16, 2015

It really depends man it's like the lotto you won't know.unless you try I will say tho that there is probably a big ratio of hermi broetts in there I'm actually playing with a bunch of seeds like this right now. I also think most og cuts and elites were made/found this way hence why they herm more easy than a lot of strains...also I'm just a amateur who smokes alot

Sativied · Dec 17, 2015

jumpincactus said:
Ruled out environment or stress for hermie....... than will it stand to reason the seeds and any offspring from that cut will be unpredictable?

Yes. But, it's pretty much impossible to rule out the environment or stress. The expression of genetics is influenced by the environment by default, and it does not have to indicate your grow enviroment is bad or you stressed the plant, it can mean it's just not a good match for that plant, and it may flower without hermie-ing in a slighlty different environment.

Long story short, I don't think there's a hermie in the world that has such unique great genes that justifies using it for breeding. Even if the first generation does not hermie, they may still do so later on. I highly recommend getting some new (regular) seeds and/or reliable cuts to make seeds if you want to continue working on it. Will take some more time now but in 6 months you'll be happy you did.

Another option would be to clone one that doesn't hermie even if you stress it and self that one after it proved itself. They will all be female, but some may express as full blown male and others will hermie. It should imo be the first trait you select against.

jumpincactus · Dec 17, 2015

Sativied said:
Yes. But, it's pretty much impossible to rule out the environment or stress. The expression of genetics is influenced by the environment by default, and it does not have to indicate your grow enviroment is bad or you stressed the plant, it can mean it's just not a good match for that plant, and it may flower without hermie-ing in a slighlty different environment.

Long story short, I don't think there's a hermie in the world that has such unique great genes that justifies using it for breeding. Even if the first generation does not hermie, they may still do so later on. I highly recommend getting some new (regular) seeds and/or reliable cuts to make seeds if you want to continue working on it. Will take some more time now but in 6 months you'll be happy you did.

Another option would be to clone one that doesn't hermie even if you stress it and self that one after it proved itself. They will all be female, but some may express as full blown male and others will hermie. It should imo be the first trait you select against.

Damn bro, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate your input, really do. Sounds like you are way more knowledgeable than I........ Peace man

Sativied · Dec 17, 2015

Let's just say I have some experience wasting time by not being selective enough :)

Whether it's for hobby, for the seeds itself, or whatever reason, based on book knowledge and science or by feeling, breeding and making seeds is addictive and you will get attached to your own crosses. Best to start with something reliable that deserves that time and love.

Also want to add I'm not saying one cannot breed with fem seeds. Plants from regular seeds can hermie too and then my suggestion would be the same. By the time you harvest the plants from the hermie seeds you can have new seeds from something else.

MGRox · Dec 17, 2015

@Sativied *Claps*

Sativied said:
I don't think there's a hermie in the world that has such unique great genes that justifies using it for breeding.

This bears being repeated

gravekat303 · Dec 17, 2015

MGRox said:
@Sativied *Claps*

This bears being repeated

Except for all the diesels And OGs every one loves so much and are now in everything(most dogs are s1s or bag seeds)

Sativied · Dec 17, 2015

gravekat303 said:
Except for all the diesels And OGs every one loves so much and are now in everything(most dogs are s1s or bag seeds)

Or S1s of bag seeds or crosses or renamed versions of which you can still buy the originals or parent strains further back in the lineage. With extraordinary exceptions none of those or other hermies have such great unique genes that aren't elsewhere in the genepool. Well, maybe a special "hype" gene.

I will say I should have set western bred hermie cause a land race may actually have something worthy to contribute and may be impossible to get as non hermie.

Above all, bag seed because of lack of access to proper seed. Nowadays you can easily buy seeds from reliable breeders and make a proper selection saving yourself and potentially others from disappointment and repeating the mistakes others made in the past because before you know it "it's in everthing".

gravekat303 · Dec 17, 2015

Sativied said:
Or S1s of bag seeds or crosses or renamed versions of which you can still buy the originals or parent strains further back in the lineage. With extraordinary exceptions none of those or other hermies have such great unique genes that aren't elsewhere in the genepool. Well, maybe a special "hype" gene.

I will say I should have set western bred hermie cause a land race may actually have something worthy to contribute and may be impossible to get as non hermie.

Above all, bag seed because of lack of access to proper seed. Nowadays you can easily buy seeds from reliable breeders and make a proper selection saving yourself and potentially others from disappointment and repeating the mistakes others made in the past because before you know it "it's in everthing".

I can dig that I'm.not saying breed em out because I do see that there is a negative side to using Hermi prone genes but at the same itime there is gold to.be found I pop any seed I get my grubby hands on if something herms it gets trashed especially male to female herms but I have found keeper cuts out a bag seeds I crossed to a firm male and then work the line if it's stave if not no.biggie

NaturalTherapy · Dec 17, 2015

Can great plants be found in fem seeds? Undoubtedly. Although....

My opinion seems to be a dying one, but I never understood feminization. For years I read people say that intersex traits can and should be bred out. Feminization seems like the exact opposite of stabilization to me, but a dozen companies based on simple FxF crosses have become as popular and respected as any other, so it seems like it really doesn't matter to the retail seed buying market.

I think it's lazy, to be frank, and just a way to make a cross and try to get some attention and money from the hype of the two parents you used. It's perhaps the most lazy approach to a seed company and yet look at how many operate as such.

I know breeders love them because it takes pressure off of creating a stable product, and removes responsibility from their hands. Regular seed makers will get a ton of flack if even 10% of the seeds from a single cross express intersex. Female seeds are almost expected to produce male flowers, to the degree the seed maker can just dismiss any negative feedback if the problem is less than 50% of total users results.

IME fem seed and regular seed both give you roughly 50% worthwhile female plants to select from. Where regular seeds generally express in the 50:50 male:female ratio- fem seeds will give you on average 50% intersex plants.

So it seems about even.... until you consider that with regular seed you have already discarded the males before bloom. With fems it could be any time throughout the cycle that you end up throwing away half your plants. After, of course, they've pollinated your room.

I learned my lesson with fems. I'll still pop them, if I need to fill space or if a cross is particularly enticing, but never more than one pack at a time.

The converse side to my anti-fem argument is that intersex expression occurs naturally in landrace genetics, and so has nothing whatsoever to do with quality, as sensimilla is only important to a particular subset of cannabis users.

The best advice, as I've heard it from those I respect most in this community- plants is plants, and a winning female is a winning female. And from equally respected people I've heard that fems should never be bred with. So in the end, only your experience in regard to your intentions matter. Fems are perfect for some, while others think of them as a plague of breeding. Somewhere in the middle is probably most accurate.

cannabeans · Dec 18, 2015

NaturalTherapy said:
I think it's lazy, to be frank, and just a way to make a cross and try to get some attention and money from the hype of the two parents you used. It's perhaps the most lazy approach to a seed company and yet look at how many operate as such.

Agree

Calixylon · Dec 18, 2015

Im not a breeder by any means, but ill drop my two cents. I believe feminization is definelty an important factor in cannabis breeding. I dont buy feminized seeds, but i see the pros of using them. Especially if you have a clone only that youd like to delve a little deeper into, and possibly explore some other terpene profiles of that same strain. That being said i think that proper fertilization between male and female is healthier, more reliable, and also creates a deeper gene pool that can make a plant better or worse. But sometimes thats just not possible if you only have one plant, and no more seeds, and you dont wanna breed it out decreasing the chanes of a certain characteristic popping up.

I got some Xmas bud seeds, that if i can only find a female, i am going to try and S1 that plant so i can make sure that ill have some seeds available for future storage, and breeding. But if i find a proper male id be much more inclined to do a natural pollination.

The problem comes when people are greedy and they begin to just S1 any clone only strain they can find, i think it should more be used as a preservation, or a last resort if you cant find a suitable partner to make seeds with. But with that being said S1 seeds arent always gonna be made with chemicals or force bred, naturally many sativa plants in wild probably herm out naturally as a self preservation tactic if they havent been pollinated, and all those seeds are natural S1's that i personally dont see a problem with.

But if the plant that S1'd itself naturally hermied mid grow, not at the very tail end, then i woudnt mess with those seeds. I bet there will be a high probability of those seeds having severe hermie issues, the kind you dont wanna see, and the kind that ruin grows, but if you have outdoor ability, and space why not, plant as many seeds as you can, just dont risk your livelyhood

cannabeans · Dec 18, 2015

Calixylon said:
The problem comes when people are greedy and they begin to just S1 any clone only strain they can find, i think it should more be used as a preservation, or a last resort if you cant find a suitable partner to make seeds with.

You make some great points to the discussion...Thanks!

jumpincactus · Dec 18, 2015

NaturalTherapy said:
Can great plants be found in fem seeds? Undoubtedly. Although....

My opinion seems to be a dying one, but I never understood feminization. For years I read people say that intersex traits can and should be bred out. Feminization seems like the exact opposite of stabilization to me, but a dozen companies based on simple FxF crosses have become as popular and respected as any other, so it seems like it really doesn't matter to the retail seed buying market.

I think it's lazy, to be frank, and just a way to make a cross and try to get some attention and money from the hype of the two parents you used. It's perhaps the most lazy approach to a seed company and yet look at how many operate as such.

I know breeders love them because it takes pressure off of creating a stable product, and removes responsibility from their hands. Regular seed makers will get a ton of flack if even 10% of the seeds from a single cross express intersex. Female seeds are almost expected to produce male flowers, to the degree the seed maker can just dismiss any negative feedback if the problem is less than 50% of total users results.

IME fem seed and regular seed both give you roughly 50% worthwhile female plants to select from. Where regular seeds generally express in the 50:50 male:female ratio- fem seeds will give you on average 50% intersex plants.

So it seems about even.... until you consider that with regular seed you have already discarded the males before bloom. With fems it could be any time throughout the cycle that you end up throwing away half your plants. After, of course, they've pollinated your room.

I learned my lesson with fems. I'll still pop them, if I need to fill space or if a cross is particularly enticing, but never more than one pack at a time.

The converse side to my anti-fem argument is that intersex expression occurs naturally in landrace genetics, and so has nothing whatsoever to do with quality, as sensimilla is only important to a particular subset of cannabis users.

The best advice, as I've heard it from those I respect most in this community- plants is plants, and a winning female is a winning female. And from equally respected people I've heard that fems should never be bred with. So in the end, only your experience in regard to your intentions matter. Fems are perfect for some, while others think of them as a plague of breeding. Somewhere in the middle is probably most accurate.

Mhhhh the old nothing is black n white, there are many shades in between. Thanks all. I look forward to where this thread will go. peace out farmers and have a blessed weekend. If I dont see you all before Happy Holidays to you all, May you reap lots o dank for your stockings!!!

rmoltis · Dec 18, 2015

jumpincactus said:
peace out farmers and have a blessed weekend. If I dont see you all before Happy Holidays to you all, May you reap lots o dank for your stockings!!!

Happy holidays cactus.
Me and the wife will be flying out end of jan.
Make sure my stocking is full ;)

happy b · Dec 19, 2015

Im assuming its the N,spectas cornbread bubba?great score by the way as its one of the best femmed strains out there but there really is no point useing herm seeds

jumpincactus · Dec 19, 2015

rmoltis said:
Happy holidays cactus.
Me and the wife will be flying out end of jan.
Make sure my stocking is full ;)

LOL You stocking will be overflowing Son. With Coaltrain haze LOL

Need Some Insight Breeders

Need Some Insight Breeders

jumpincactus

Premium Member

hawkman

jumpincactus

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epitome

gravekat303

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Sativied

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jumpincactus

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Sativied

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MGRox

gravekat303

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Sativied

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NaturalTherapy

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cannabeans

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happy b

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Need Some Insight Breeders

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MGRox

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