Neem oil discussion thread (Civilized)

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

DISCLAIMER: If you wanna participate in this conversation please be respectful, I dont think its too much to ask.
I wanna know what do you guys think about neem oil as I see several people that would never use it but Ive been using it for years and there are dozens of studies about it. I read a fair ammount and I couldnt find anything to worry about but Im only one person so maybe something out there scaped my reach. I was pretty certain that neem oil was safe because I dont blindly use something without research first but today I decided to dive in deeper and search even more studies from 2023 or older about its composition and toxicity and I see its been studied since 1980 in humans and other animals and as far as 1920 in its use in agriculture and the ecosystem. Used for thousands of years as plant food and pesticide (neem oil and neem meal) and it has anti cancerous properties and it doesnt damage the ecosystem (bees, plants, animals). So whats all the fear about? What am I missing? Its used in cosmetic, medicine, plant care and it was also used as contraceptive by our ancestors, which is the only part that I would consider worrying but not so much considering you need to take a high concentrated dose for it to be effective in humans and even then nobody seemed to notice anything bad about it, even tho its certainly not healthy to take it often if it messes with your sperm.
Here is a list of all of the studies in order from newer (2023) to older:

Google Académico

scholar.google.es

Some people think that Im searching only what I want to hear but the truth is that I look into everything and when I post something that backs what Im saying is because I previously learned the same way, by googling. I dont know why some people hate google so much, the internet is the biggest library in the world and it contains thousands of studies about thousands of subjects.

BigBlonde · Apr 27, 2023

We rarely use it. When we do, we don't use it on anything that we ingest.

BB22 · Apr 27, 2023

I’m thinking on eating a tsp a day…. build up a tolerance.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

BigBlonde said:
We rarely use it. When we do, we don't use it on anything that we ingest.

But why? Im ready to stop using it if I find a good reason to do so. I use horsetail tea instead when its something mild. What would you recommend as an alternative? I know the key is prevention but sometimes shit happens. For bugs I use diatomaceous earth, I only get gnats so I only use it as top dressing, not on the leaves.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

BB22 said:
I’m thinking on eating a tsp a day…. build up a tolerance.

Very funny, please abstain from posting if youre not gonna say anything useful. This is a serious conversation.

MIGrampaUSA · Apr 27, 2023

I've used it earlier on as a preventative during vegetative growth outside. Everywhere I've seen/heard/read says not to use during flowering. As for an alternative? Dr Zymes is a good alternative if you're looking to use something different. There's other products as well. It depends on what you expect to run into. Another product if you're looking for OMRI approved biocides would be Southern Ag's Garden Friendly Fungicide.

BB22 · Apr 27, 2023

It was low hanging fruit. Sorry I thought it was funny. I still think it’s funny. I agree. This is a good discussion.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

MIGrampaUSA said:
I've used it earlier on as a preventative during vegetative growth outside. Everywhere I've seen/heard/read says not to use during flowering. As for an alternative? Dr Zymes is a good alternative if you're looking to use something different. There's other products as well. It depends on what you expect to run into. Another product if you're looking for OMRI approved biocides would be Southern Ag's Garden Friendly Fungicide.

Based on what Ive been reading today (it was a lot... my brain is fried) not using it during flowering might be because some active components from neem oil can reside inside the plant up to 30 days or so. Its mostly sulfuric compounds and limonoids but thats enough to alter the taste, sulfur is not very pleasant to smell, thats why neem oil smells bad. So yeah, makes sense not to use it in flower even if you dont touch the buds.

BigBlonde · Apr 27, 2023

Eledin said:
But why? Im ready to stop using it if I find a good reason to do so. I use horsetail tea instead when its something mild. What would you recommend as an alternative? I know the key is prevention but sometimes shit happens. For bugs I use diatomaceous earth, I only get gnats so I only use it as top dressing, not on the leaves.

I thought you'd ask me that. We voted. Neem lost.

Alternatives depend on the problem.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

BB22 said:
It was low hanging fruit. Sorry I thought it was funny. I still think it’s funny. I agree. This is a good discussion.

No worries man, I was worried that you were gonna be like two certain guys and just come here to test my patience.

BB22 · Apr 27, 2023

Eledin said:
No worries man, I was worried that you were gonna be like two certain guys and just come here to test my patience.

What ya got growin?

I’m doing some white widow autos and some other photos

Perrin6363 · Apr 27, 2023

Eledin said:
DISCLAIMER: If you wanna participate in this conversation please be respectful, I dont think its too much to ask.
I wanna know what do you guys think about neem oil as I see several people that would never use it but Ive been using it for years and there are dozens of studies about it. I read a fair ammount and I couldnt find anything to worry about but Im only one person so maybe something out there scaped my reach. I was pretty certain that neem oil was safe because I dont blindly use something without research first but today I decided to dive in deeper and search even more studies from 2023 or older about its composition and toxicity and I see its been studied since 1980 in humans and other animals and as far as 1920 in its use in agriculture and the ecosystem. Used for thousands of years as plant food and pesticide (neem oil and neem meal) and it has anti cancerous properties and it doesnt damage the ecosystem (bees, plants, animals). So whats all the fear about? What am I missing? Its used in cosmetic, medicine, plant care and it was also used as contraceptive by our ancestors, which is the only part that I would consider worrying but not so much considering you need to take a high concentrated dose for it to be effective in humans and even then nobody seemed to notice anything bad about it, even tho its certainly not healthy to take it often if it messes with your sperm.
Here is a list of all of the studies in order from newer (2023) to older:

Google Académico

scholar.google.es

Some people think that Im searching only what I want to hear but the truth is that I look into everything and when I post something that backs what Im saying is because I previously learned the same way, by googling. I dont know why some people hate google so much, the internet is the biggest library in the world and it contains thousands of studies about thousands of subjects.

How and when do you use it? I've never seriously researched but read a little and heard some very good things said about it on podcasts. I want to use it in my living soil, but was advised to hold off for now. This is my first run in living soil.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

Perrin6363 said:
How and when do you use it? I've never seriously researched but read a little and heard some very good things said about it on podcasts. I want to use it in my living soil, but was advised to hold off for now. This is my first run in living soil.

What I found regarding neem oil and beneficial bacteria is that it can harm some of them but most of them use it as food, beneficial bacteria will feed on it and poop food for your plant. It was also mentioned that unless youre spraying it on the soil every day it should be fine as far as the microorganisms it can damage because its highly diluted and it wont penetrate the soil until you water, at which point it will be even more diluted and considering it takes 3 days for it to start decomposing and with water as soon as 45 minutes, even more diluted. As for why some people are so reluctant to use it Im still trying to find the answer. I know why people dont use it in flower so far, its a step.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

BigBlonde said:
I thought you'd ask me that. We voted. Neem lost.

Alternatives depend on the problem.

I used the search bar to try to find it so I wouldnt have to ask you why people voted no, but I didnt find it so I need to ask you, did people give reasons while voting no? Did they notice anything taste related? Did they find something that proved that other alternatives are safer? Im just trying to understand, I dont mean to be a pain in the ass and you dont have to answer if you dont want to.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

Perrin6363 said:
How and when do you use it? I've never seriously researched but read a little and heard some very good things said about it on podcasts. I want to use it in my living soil, but was advised to hold off for now. This is my first run in living soil.

Sorry forgot to answer the first question lol. I use 3ml of neem oil and 3ml of potassic soap in 1 liter of water and shake vigorously, then apply to leaves that show what might be an early stage of fungal infection. I dont apply it if I dont see anything weird. For fungus that can overgrow on the top soil cause I use organics I use horsetail tea. For bugs I top dress with diatomaceous earth as I only get fungus gnats and they live mostly on the soil.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

BB22 said:
What ya got growin?

I’m doing some white widow autos and some other photos

I just finished a run of matanuskas auto, this 2 ladies

Right now I have 4 Skywalker OG Runtz XL auto (sweet seeds) in seedling stage. White widow never fails imo, what photos are you growing? You guys in the US have crazy variety of strains.

Perrin6363 · Apr 27, 2023

Eledin said:
What I found regarding neem oil and beneficial bacteria is that it can harm some of them but most of them use it as food, beneficial bacteria will feed on it and poop food for your plant. It was also mentioned that unless youre spraying it on the soil every day it should be fine as far as the microorganisms it can damage because its highly diluted and it wont penetrate the soil until you water, at which point it will be even more diluted and considering it takes 3 days for it to start decomposing and with water as soon as 45 minutes, even more diluted. As for why some people are so reluctant to use it Im still trying to find the answer. I know why people dont use it in flower so far, its a step.

That's great man, you've actually gave me the area of neem research I can focus on if I do try it. I'm really very interested in microbes and how they work with the plant. That's been my main area of research lately. I'm say research like I'm really studying something, but really this is all still very new to me and might retain one tiny piece of info from something I've read. But it's all very interesting. I do remember hearing that neem could harm microbes. But from what I've learned about microbes its like what you've said, harm to is determined most by concentration and time exposed. That more or less a quote from Colin Bell. He says it's actually not very easy to kill microbes. Here's a chart going over different acids and bases that won't kill the specific microbes in this product. After looking at this I would think your rational about it being diluted and harmless is right on.

growsince79 · Apr 27, 2023

Eledin said:
DISCLAIMER: If you wanna participate in this conversation please be respectful, I dont think its too much to ask.
I wanna know what do you guys think about neem oil as I see several people that would never use it but Ive been using it for years and there are dozens of studies about it. I read a fair ammount and I couldnt find anything to worry about but Im only one person so maybe something out there scaped my reach. I was pretty certain that neem oil was safe because I dont blindly use something without research first but today I decided to dive in deeper and search even more studies from 2023 or older about its composition and toxicity and I see its been studied since 1980 in humans and other animals and as far as 1920 in its use in agriculture and the ecosystem. Used for thousands of years as plant food and pesticide (neem oil and neem meal) and it has anti cancerous properties and it doesnt damage the ecosystem (bees, plants, animals). So whats all the fear about? What am I missing? Its used in cosmetic, medicine, plant care and it was also used as contraceptive by our ancestors, which is the only part that I would consider worrying but not so much considering you need to take a high concentrated dose for it to be effective in humans and even then nobody seemed to notice anything bad about it, even tho its certainly not healthy to take it often if it messes with your sperm.
Here is a list of all of the studies in order from newer (2023) to older:

Google Académico

scholar.google.es

Some people think that Im searching only what I want to hear but the truth is that I look into everything and when I post something that backs what Im saying is because I previously learned the same way, by googling. I dont know why some people hate google so much, the internet is the biggest library in the world and it contains thousands of studies about thousands of subjects.

I don't spray anything on buds I intend to smoke. I'd rather throw it away and start over.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

growsince79 said:
I don't spray anything on buds I intend to smoke. I'd rather throw it away and start over.

We are already past the point of using it in flower I already know why, matches with the info I found in a study, is in the thread if you wanna read it.

Eledin · Apr 27, 2023

Perrin6363 said:
That's great man, you've actually gave me the area of neem research I can focus on if I do try it. I'm really very interested in microbes and how they work with the plant. That's been my main area of research lately. I'm say research like I'm really studying something, but really this is all still very new to me and might retain one tiny piece of info from something I've read. But it's all very interesting. I do remember hearing that neem could harm microbes. But from what I've learned about microbes its like what you've said, harm to is determined most by concentration and time exposed. That more or less a quote from Colin Bell. He says it's actually not very easy to kill microbes. Here's a chart going over different acids and bases that won't kill the specific microbes in this product. After looking at this I would think your rational about it being diluted and harmless is right on. View attachment 1958685

Thats a very informative table, thank you for sharing! I have a lot of spare time so I also do like to research stuff. I spend hours watching videos or, like today, reading long and sometimes tedious studies. (Lets be honest many people dont read them because they are LONG)

Neem oil discussion thread (Civilized)

Neem oil discussion thread (Civilized)

Eledin

Google Académico

BigBlonde

BB22

Eledin

Eledin

MIGrampaUSA

BB22

Eledin

BigBlonde

Eledin

BB22

Perrin6363

Google Académico

Eledin

Eledin

Eledin

Eledin

Perrin6363

growsince79

Google Académico

Eledin

Eledin

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