Non-stop Deficiency Battle (pics)

[fortphoenix]

i flood and drain in rapid rooters/hydroton/1gal buckets. 400w A/C on 24/7, flood every 6 hours, 5.9PH 850ppm, RH 35-60% 72-78 degrees. nirvana ak48 are the bigger plants, sensi Northern Lights are the smaller ones

i made a lot of beginner mistakes when the plants were younger that stunted growth but they’re almost 2 months old (AK are about 2 weeks older than NL, NL went in the tray last week) and growth is still very slow and i been battling non-stop deficiency issues (thought i was calcium or nitrogen) I’ve tried using maxigro in different strengths with and without calmag and with and without r.o water and now I’m trying 5 parts flora micro with 4 parts flora bloom with 1/2 gram/gal epsom, making a perfect 3-1-2 ratio with r.o (121-40-81 with 122 calcium and 27 magnesium to be exact plus and extra like 13ppm from epsom) i know the NL and AK should be in separate trays but i don’t have that option right now

the problem is the fan leafs keep dying from the bottom and they’re showing spotting. the only fan leaves left on the AKs are the fan leaves at the top 3 nodes, I’ve also noticed the lower fan leaves are all really dry, especially on the northern lights the leaves are curling and crumbly with brown spots and I’ve also noticed the petioles are purple but I’ve seen people say AK48 just does that naturally but the NL have the purple too, also the new growth on the AK has yellow tips and the very newest growth has a brownish/red tint to it which has had me worried for a while

i also topped the all the plants exactly 9 days ago (tried to FIM lol) and i put a lighter next to the node where they were topped so you can see how much (how little) they’ve grown in the past 9 days (keep in mind i topped them again today so you couldn’t see the half inch of growth i took off the nodes i just topped)

 

[fortphoenix]

more pics

 

[fortphoenix]

few more

 

[MidwestToker]

Try lowering your nute's to 500-600 ppm and flooding a little more often. I don't do flood and drain but I grow in coir and they do best with low ppm with multiple feedings a day. Even my most hungriest plants never see feeding over 650 ppm.

 

[Seamaiden]

I’m trying 5 parts flora micro with 4 parts flora bloom with 1/2 gram/gal epsom, making a perfect 3-1-2 ratio with r.o (121-40-81 with 122 calcium and 27 magnesium to be exact plus and extra like 13ppm from epsom) i know the NL and AK should be in separate trays but i don’t have that option right now

the problem is the fan leafs keep dying from the bottom and they’re showing spotting. the only fan leaves left on the AKs are the fan leaves at the top 3 nodes, I’ve also noticed the lower fan leaves are all really dry, especially on the northern lights the leaves are curling and crumbly with brown spots and I’ve also noticed the petioles are purple but I’ve seen people say AK48 just does that naturally but the NL have the purple too, also the new growth on the AK has yellow tips and the very newest growth has a brownish/red tint to it which has had me worried for a while

That's a P and K issue. In my opinion, you're complicating things. They're in veg, feed them for veg. You don't say what your pH parameters are, while I haven't grown in hydroton I have done coir and perlite hydro, and my experience in the perlite is that the low to mid 5s is where you want the pH to land.

I think you should just be feeding the Flora Bloom, IIRC it's something like 4-7-4 and all you need outside that is the Ca, Mg and when in flower some pushes of P and K.

You're not reporting environmental parameters, but they look cold and dry to me.

 

[fortphoenix]

Try lowering your nute's to 500-600 ppm and flooding a little more often. I don't do flood and drain but I grow in coir and they do best with low ppm with multiple feedings a day. Even my most hungriest plants never see feeding over 650 ppm.

That's a P and K issue. In my opinion, you're complicating things. They're in veg, feed them for veg. You don't say what your pH parameters are, while I haven't grown in hydroton I have done coir and perlite hydro, and my experience in the perlite is that the low to mid 5s is where you want the pH to land.

I think you should just be feeding the Flora Bloom, IIRC it's something like 4-7-4 and all you need outside that is the Ca, Mg and when in flower some pushes of P and K.

You're not reporting environmental parameters, but they look cold and dry to me.

thats what i was doing before (500ppm) with straight maxigro (10-5-14) and was getting huge nitrogen deficiency isssues and even less growth and i read journals of people growing AK and they all say ak48 like high ppm and after topping my res with plain water my ppm is always lower (started with around 900, topped today and ppm is around 800) than the ppm i started with. as far as my northern lights id agree I'm sure they could use less ppm but i only have 1 flood tray so the NL doesn't really have a choice.

i just calibrated my ppm and ph today and they're both on point. my ph is at 5.9 and its been steady the past week, haven't added any PH adjuster and i haven't seen any PH drifts

and the humidity is definitely lower than id like i could let the temps get higher if you think thats a better idea, i was thinking about lowering my flood level too because i think i may be getting some stem rot

as far as notes idk what IIRC is but i just know maxigro isn't working for me, I'm thinking of just saying screw it and using straight up lucas even though I've read all over 3-1-2 is the perfect ratio for veg and the 7.5mlmicro 6mlbloom makes that exactly. you think if i upped the bloom (0-5-4) that would take care of the P,K issues(then again i don't want to add more stuff and create more issues)? if went even parts with bloom&micro its make a 5-5-5 ratio which i also read is good for veg

 

[Seamaiden]

Those are different NPK numbers than I have on my bottle of Floranova Bloom. If it's zero N, then you've got to replace that. You could do it very easily using CaNO3, but I'm not sure how much. Before you increase the Bloom, lower the pH for a few days, and give them something with N, they're not ready for no N here.

If those amounts of the Grow and Bloom give you the numbers you're after, then use that and again, for now, *just* adjust the pH and observe. If it stops progression of the necrosis then you're good. If not then yes, some changes need to be made but I'd go really slowly making them.

Now I can't recall, are you using humic acids or fulvics, of any sort? Are you using seaweed at all? Both can be helpful but the humics/fulvics come with a big caveat--you *must* reduce your total feed by approximately 1/3, or you'll start burning the plants very quickly. Also with liquid humics watch the pH of your feed before making adjustments. I like to add humic first, then everything else into that. In fact, I prefer MicroHume, which is dry.

 

[MidwestToker]

Best advice I can give you is to start from the beginning and use the micro and grow only at half strength and stop overthinking. In my experience there is no way those need 850ppm.

 

[fortphoenix]

Those are different NPK numbers than I have on my bottle of Floranova Bloom. If it's zero N, then you've got to replace that. You could do it very easily using CaNO3, but I'm not sure how much. Before you increase the Bloom, lower the pH for a few days, and give them something with N, they're not ready for no N here.

If those amounts of the Grow and Bloom give you the numbers you're after, then use that and again, for now, *just* adjust the pH and observe. If it stops progression of the necrosis then you're good. If not then yes, some changes need to be made but I'd go really slowly making them.

I'm not sure what you mean when you're talking about having zero N but the reason i haven't lowered the PH is because i thought it was a calcium deficiency and read calcium is best absorbed above 5.8 so i didn't want to lock it out and make more problems. I'm really just thinking about dumping my res in the morning and using lucas the only thing holding me back is being scared ill have a nitrogen deficiency but no I don't use any of that i run a sterile res with h2o2 which is why I'm stressing the deficiency so much because i can't use anything organic to help so i have to get the nutes right

 

[fortphoenix]

you know what i just thought... i forgot to shake the bottles of nutes before i used them... could that cause an issue? i assume it could

 

[MGRox]

It's good to see that you explored a bit to try and figure out the best course of action in your scenario. Though making your own NPK "profiles", can be a lot to digest while your still getting used to growing. It may be a lot easier to learn if you stick with commonly accepted ratios, profiles, or pre-made mixes. Once you know what to expect out of your genetics, setup and environment; then it will be easier to make your own mixes.

Specifically with your case though. 2 main things IMHO.
-Number one issue is probably too long between floods. It's been a long time since I did that setup; but I believe it was 15 min flood every 2-3 hrs. 6 seems a bit long for hydroton.
If your getting dry enough to kill off your hair roots; then you also are losing a lot of uptake efficiency. Particularly with P.
Also, if your getting too dry in those containers; then you'll have precipitation of Ca and Fe with P.

-Second thing is with your ratio. While there's nothing wrong with a 3-1-2 ratio, but it does not specifically account for the other cations or anions. When you mix your own nutes; you have to account for the the ratios and / or interactions of, primarily, the macro cations / anions (N,P,K,Ca,Mg,S).
Connecting one area of horticulture that tends to run 3-1-2 (with no or low Ca focus) with this industry that tends to focus on Ca to N ratios; will cause some issues. Most significantly the K to Ca+Mg ratio is too low. With the proportions of K,Ca,Mg where they are; the S is too low. In this scenario Fe is a bit high also. (Mostly; lower Ca and/or raise K and run EC not more than 1.3 for now)

The cations (Ca,Mg,K) are sorta like having 3 Type A personalities crammed into a bathroom. They're going to always be pissed off at each other and trying to compete for who's best. While the anions (N,P,S) are like 3 Type B personalities mostly getting along with each other and laughing, from across the room, at the cations fight. Everyone has gotta be in just the right "mood"(ratio) for all 6 to get along together.

Last, I'd take advantage of Seamaiden's recommendations whenever you can; they tend to be spot on.

 

[fortphoenix]

It's good to see that you explored a bit to try and figure out the best course of action in your scenario. Though making your own NPK "profiles", can be a lot to digest while your still getting used to growing. It may be a lot easier to learn if you stick with commonly accepted ratios, profiles, or pre-made mixes. Once you know what to expect out of your genetics, setup and environment; then it will be easier to make your own mixes.

Specifically with your case though. 2 main things IMHO.
-Number one issue is probably too long between floods. It's been a long time since I did that setup; but I believe it was 15 min flood every 2-3 hrs. 6 seems a bit long for hydroton.
If your getting dry enough to kill off your hair roots; then you also are losing a lot of uptake efficiency. Particularly with P.
Also, if your getting too dry in those containers; then you'll have precipitation of Ca and Fe with P.

-Second thing is with your ratio. While there's nothing wrong with a 3-1-2 ratio, but it does not specifically account for the other cations or anions. When you mix your own nutes; you have to account for the the ratios and / or interactions of, primarily, the macro cations / anions (N,P,K,Ca,Mg,S).
Connecting one area of horticulture that tends to run 3-1-2 (with no or low Ca focus) with this industry that tends to focus on Ca to N ratios; will cause some issues. Most significantly the K to Ca+Mg ratio is too low. With the proportions of K,Ca,Mg where they are; the S is too low. In this scenario Fe is a bit high also. (Mostly; lower Ca and/or raise K and run EC not more than 1.3 for now)

The cations (Ca,Mg,K) are sorta like having 3 Type A personalities crammed into a bathroom. They're going to always be pissed off at each other and trying to compete for who's best. While the anions (N,P,S) are like 3 Type B personalities mostly getting along with each other and laughing, from across the room, at the cations fight. Everyone has gotta be in just the right "mood"(ratio) for all 6 to get along together.

Last, I'd take advantage of Seamaiden's recommendations whenever you can; they tend to be spot on.

yeah i made 2 responses to her and i think she only saw the last one i posted but thanks a lot for explaining it to me like that dude it made it so much clearer, especially the personality analogy. I'm thinking of lowering the flood level so it floods just underneath the rapid rooter (currently touching the bottom of RR) and flood 6 times per day, only thing I'm worried about is overwatering the smaller NL that look overwatered. as far as the mix i made you are 100% right, i was only trying to count for the ratios of cal/mag and Ca/N and wasn't considering a potassium and calmag or calmag and sulfur. i was only trying to fix where i had a deficiency instead of trying to fix my res as a whole. so I'm going to try lucas formula (u assume i should stay away from using cal-mag?) but i have one more question for you because no matter where i search i can't find an answer.. do you think a Ca/P deficiency is causing the new growth on the main shoots to turn a reddish color or could that be something else? its been really worrisome to me because i can't find anything on it, all i find is potassium problems but thats only described by red stems and veins...I've found 1 other post with the same problem and they said its a PH issue but my ph is steady 5.9. any thoughts? again thanks so much for that explanation

 

[MGRox]

Yeah, definitely flood below the RR. No reason to get roots near the crown wet as they aren't really uptaking much in those areas. You should be fine without overwatering issues @ 6 times.

With lucas formula; you should not need to add more Ca or Mg. The Ca:N ratio is already 1 with GH; where many typically run in this industry. Certain genetics or environmental factors (high light intensity and CO2 levels) can create scenarios where extra "may" be needed.
If you do happen to see a deficiency; then it's better to apply Ca or Mg vs "CalMag" as one product (see Seamaiden's signature thread about calmag).

The coloration can occur from a multitude of reasons. Though, to stay in your case specifically; This is a photoprotection response; preserving nutrient in/outflow (mainstem / petioles) from lowered (root) uptake efficiency. Petioles (typically older) can color in response to light alone, but for similar purpose; not related to uptake efficiency (so don't freak out over that bit). The mainstem coloration, In newer growth; will be back to green; when the root health and uptake efficiency is improved. So that includes pathogens, EC, pH, temp, watering cycles and NPK ratios; as potential factors affecting this.
In your case; the new NPK profile and shorter watering intervals should fix that.

pH of 5.9 is about as high as you should go probably. If you tend to drift down over the adjustment period; that'd be fine. If you tend to drift up; then 5.7 is maybe a better place to hit. (so, centering around 5.8 +/- either way).

 

[rmoltis]

they said its a PH issue but my ph is steady 5.9. any suggestions

Is that runoff ph?
I only ask because recently I had my plants showing deficiencies.
I thoughty ph'd waterings & feedings were enough. So I didn't consider it an option.

Then I tested my runoff ph and it was at 4ph instead of the 6.5 I was feeding it at.

Good luck.
And I agree with the others, listen to @Seamaiden she knows her stuff.

 

[fortphoenix]

Yeah, definitely flood below the RR. No reason to get roots near the crown wet as they aren't really uptaking much in those areas. You should be fine without overwatering issues @ 6 times.

With lucas formula; you should not need to add more Ca or Mg. The Ca:N ratio is already 1 with GH; where many typically run in this industry. Certain genetics or environmental factors (high light intensity and CO2 levels) can create scenarios where extra "may" be needed.
If you do happen to see a deficiency; then it's better to apply Ca or Mg vs "CalMag" as one product (see Seamaiden's signature thread about calmag).

The coloration can occur from a multitude of reasons. Though, to stay in your case specifically; This is a photoprotection response; preserving nutrient in/outflow (mainstem / petioles) from lowered (root) uptake efficiency. Petioles (typically older) can color in response to light alone, but for similar purpose; not related to uptake efficiency (so don't freak out over that bit). The mainstem coloration, In newer growth; will be back to green; when the root health and uptake efficiency is improved. So that includes pathogens, EC, pH, temp, watering cycles and NPK ratios; as potential factors affecting this.
In your case; the new NPK profile and shorter watering intervals should fix that.

pH of 5.9 is about as high as you should go probably. If you tend to drift down over the adjustment period; that'd be fine. If you tend to drift up; then 5.7 is maybe a better place to hit. (so, centering around 5.8 +/- either way).

alright thanks man it was just really concerning seeing the new leaves have a very red hue to them, then the red dissapears and the leaf turns green once the leaf is is like a half inch long. i think soon enough I'm going to have to upgrade to 2 gallon pots (even though id really rather not transplant) but thanks for the response man i appreciate it and another thanks for educating me!!

 

[fortphoenix]

Is that runoff ph?
I only ask because recently I had my plants showing deficiencies.
I thoughty ph'd waterings & feedings were enough. So I didn't consider it an option.

Then I tested my runoff ph and it was at 4ph instead of the 6.5 I was feeding it at.

Good luck.
And I agree with the others, listen to @Seamaiden she knows her stuff.

yeah the runoff is about the same, I'm going to test it again tonight. i think it'd be harder for me to see a difference because my tray is 2x4 and theres only 4 little 1 gallon pots on the side of each other so theres a bunch of water just not touching the pots at all, if i had like a 1.5x1.5 tray it'd be a lot easier to tell the runoff

 

[PhatNuggz]

One possibility: your RH is way low should be ~ 75 @ 75*s. This drys the leafs out

Also, 850ppm is at least twice as much as you need at this stage

The combination is likely to produce what you are seeing