SoCal 420 said:

So... What do "You" that are reading this call it, when A man gives you his word, In front of "Millions" of people, on tape, for all to see... does everything possible to avoid following through on his own statement??? Just Wondering...

Click to expand...

I call it politics. What do you call it? The description applies to almost all politicians, and neither political party can claim ownership of that description. America, Fuck Yeah!

outwest

I gotta say, Obama is not unique and not new, all presidents have their scandals and skirmishes...lol
Right, left, they all promise the moon and deliver swiss cheese at best ;)

sanvanalona said:

Not too sure that this is correct. Illegal immigrants pay taxes for the most part (most employers are forced too this) yet they receive no benefits. I can say this first hand as many of my family members made the trek over here, worked their asses off and paid taxes and have returned to Mexico. None of them get social security, welfare, or even drive on our roads anymore.

Click to expand...

And then there are those US citizens who do not pay their fair share of earnings in their income, thinking, wrongly, illegally, and blatantly, that the sales tax they pay on goods is their only obligation when sales tax collections by their county/State funds >absolutely<nothing in the Federal realm...like the Interstate highways they drive on or the freedom they enjoy daily via the military complex that is funded by these taxes. >Users< and deadbeats are the SAME no matter what city or country they hail from or of they've live here all their lives. (which just means they are a chronic drain on the system rather than being here temporarily as in the case with some illegal aliens)

Thankfully, if they own a home these folks cannot circumvent paying their fair share of property/school taxes because these taxes are not based on their lack of integrity and low moral fiber and are set fees that are levied across the board to all property owners.

How these people Lie/cheat/steal from >everyone< (and some even brag about it) is a prime example why we need a flat tax on purchases that >includes< the Federal obligation as well. That way if these deadbeats are eating/consuming/BREATHING inside the USA, they are forced to pay their fair share and not dump that burden on the REST OF US.

outwest said:

I call it politics. What do you call it? The description applies to almost all politicians, and neither political party can claim ownership of that description. America, Fuck Yeah!

outwest

Click to expand...

baba G said:

I gotta say, Obama is not unique and not new, all presidents have their scandals and skirmishes...lol
Right, left, they all promise the moon and deliver swiss cheese at best ;)

Click to expand...

Of course you guys are right. Politicians have been lying and making campaign promises forever.
and Now, The People just shrug it off..like its no big deal....It just how it is :mad: Thats Bulls shit.

The United states government is so fucking corrupt there is nothing the people can do to change it.:(
We are all slaves to the Machine

But I'm going to try to have a nice day anyway :)

and Rage against the Machine!

sky high said:

And then there are those US citizens who do not pay their fair share of earnings in their income, thinking, wrongly, illegally, and blatantly, that the sales tax they pay on goods is their only obligation when sales tax collections by their county/State funds >absolutely<nothing in the Federal realm...like the Interstate highways they drive on or the freedom they enjoy daily via the military complex that is funded by these taxes. >Users< and deadbeats are the SAME no matter what city or country they hail from or of they've live here all their lives. (which just means they are a chronic drain on the system rather than being here temporarily as in the case with some illegal aliens)

Thankfully, if they own a home these folks cannot circumvent paying their fair share of property/school taxes because these taxes are not based on their lack of integrity and low moral fiber and are set fees that are levied across the board to all property owners.

How these people Lie/cheat/steal from >everyone< (and some even brag about it) is a prime example why we need a flat tax on purchases that >includes< the Federal obligation as well. That way if these deadbeats are eating/consuming/BREATHING inside the USA, they are forced to pay their fair share and not dump that burden on the REST OF US.

Click to expand...

Thankfully We pay Property Tax? o_O

Property Taxes are unconstitutional....


I agree there should be Flat rate tax...not on income...on purchases.. .

Not gonna happen though..

The IRS is All powerfull now with obama care..

I personally think that in this day and age, the technology era, the government should redo the tax code to make it as simple as possible and allow anyone who wants to do it on there own computer through the IRS website. They could make a spiffy little app that could allow the most complex of taxes done in minutes and maybe even give a general idea of where funds went, i.e.:

Person x: Income $45,ooo
Taxes owed: $7,800

Taxes are spread along the following lines:
Highway and road repair: 20%
Military spending: 40%
Political spending: 10%
College education/grants: 20%
Science and development grants: 10%

Obviously these are made up rates but something along the lines to simplify taxes and give a visual presentation of where that money gets spent would really help a lot of the people who either have a difficult time filing or want to know what the hell they are paying taxes for.

caregiverken said:

Thankfully We pay Property Tax? o_O

Property Taxes are unconstitutional....


I agree there should be Flat rate tax...not on income...on purchases.. .

Not gonna happen though..

The IRS is All powerfull now with obama care..

Click to expand...

Hey Ken, I wonder what you dislike so much about "obamacare". I say this because I know that you like myself live in California and if you have looked into the "covered California" plan they are pretty awesome. With a family of four, and my current income I am looking at covering my entire family for less than 150 dollars a month! While I am a firm believer in social healthcare, that comes from my travels to countries that have those plans implemented and the healthcare they receive, I am pretty stoked that I can afford health insurance at such an inexpensive rate.

I am also personally affected by the Affordable care act because my niece was born with a severe case of crohn's disease and would not have been able to be insured by any private insurer before this act, and now she has the comfort of knowing that insurance companies have to offer coverage for her. Extremely relieving in that case.

I see great things coming in the future for ACA and much like other social programs like medicare and social security the benefits of the program will be seen by most people a few years after implementation.

And mine will be about 150 just for me. Decision time.

Eat Top Ramen with insurance or eat fresh fruits and veg without insurance.

I havent had so much as a cold in 5 years and have good insurance on my vehicle, the most likely place of injury for me. If I had an extra 150 a month Id get a car dependable to drive before I got health insurance, that is my choice in the land of the free.

The problem with Obummercare is that no one can opt out..but politicians.

Under the laws passed you will become a tax evader if you do not BUY Obummercare.

The motha-fuckin government should NOT be running the healthcare business...but it only shows how the corporate medical mafia dictate and own the politico area.

another tidbit: I do not like my tax dollars funding the military in Middle East oil/drug wars nor do I want to pay for military people guarding the opium fields. I think it's safe to say the majority of americans feel the same.

kolah said:

The problem with Obummercare is that no one can opt out..but politicians.

Under the laws passed you will become a tax evader is you do not BUY Obummercare.

The motha-fuckin government should NOT be running the healthcare business...but it only shows how the corporate medical mafia dictate and own the politico area.

another tidbit: I do not like my tax dollars funding the military in Middle East oil/drug wars nor do I want to pay for military people guarding the opium fields. I think it's safe to say the majority of americans feel the same.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I was gonna say!

I dont want to pay for Wars!...I dont mind paying for the sick and hungry..or the homeless ..
It would be my pleasure to do that..

wait. :eek:

It's only gonna cost me $150 a month for health insurance?:eek:
o_O That doesn't sound right.
It sounds Great though.:cool:
im in.
I will buy obama care for 150 a month....

kolah said:

The problem with Obummercare is that no one can opt out..but politicians.

Under the laws passed you will become a tax evader if you do not BUY Obummercare.

The motha-fuckin government should NOT be running the healthcare business...

Click to expand...

Well...that's a serious twisting of the reality.

You're a tax evader if you don't pay taxes.

You can opt out of health insurance and pay the tax--or you can get coverage (which isn't "buying Obamacare"--it's just buying insurance).

The government isn't "running the healthcare industry" they've simply regulated it, which is very different.

Below is my extended opinion:

I, for one, think the government should run the healthcare industry. It works quite well elsewhere because the incentive is towards healthier people--and the problem of "chargemasters" (accounts for about 1/3rd of the problem) doesn't exist in these systems.

Part of what this government involvement does is impose on the health insurance market a rule which says that their incentives must be towards healthier people (as opposed to dead ones--as it is now). It's difficult for a market to switch from "We make money if we deny care to someone who paid us trough a technicality and they die" to "We make money if we keep people who pay us healthier".

The reason the government fits so well here is that it fits a not-for-profit role. There is no "middle man" (ie insurance companies) trying to skim off the top. The health services are paid for ahead of time and the idea is that by keeping people healthier we can SAVE money rather than make it.

When profit comes into play, people start to die.

The main thing the government took over here was the insurance companies' profit margins--and even if the whole system collapses come 2014 we should all be singing their praises for that.

This puts a huge burden on insurance companies and that is made up by scaling the risk pool (ie by insuring everyone).

Unfortunately, this is what you ended up with for getting rid of the government option. Instead of an option you are forced into something.

There are LOTS of legitimate reasons to dislike Obamacare, however the following reasons are not legitimate because they simply aren't true:

1. There are no options. (False, you may get insured or pay the tax--which will be quite low for most people who have trouble affording insurance--there are, thus, two options. Effectively, this is a tax increase. For what it does for our country, it's really very little to ask--these will be some of the best spent tax dollars of all time if predictions are correct as they appear to be in test markets).

2. The government is "taking over healthcare". (False, this is a conservative talking point/buzz phrase--the government is regulating the insurance industry and has chosen to impose a tax to that end. This is not the same as a takeover--admittedly they did attempt a takeover, because a government option would've decimated insurance companies, but this was blocked).

3. There are going to be death panels. (False, this legislation DOES AWAY WITH the death panels which already existed at every major insurance company--whose sole purpose was to deny care to paying customers)

4. It will bankrupt the country. (False, the country isn't paying for it--insurance companies are. The country was ALREADY paying its maximum possible allotment of these funds which was part of the impetus for wanting to get everyone insured or wanting to tax them if they didn't--the big problem, of course, being that most hospitals are walking a tightrope between private entities [so that they can charge insane prices a la "chargemasters"] and government subsidy [so that when the bills come due they don't shut down]).

squiggly said:

Effectively, this is a tax increase. For what it does for our country, it's really very little to ask

Click to expand...

A quick look at cali's website shows a single person making 25k a year will pay $144 a month. $1728/year..... about 7% tax increase. I know some folks who make 25k. 1700 bucks is hardly "very little to ask" of them.

Guess they can just pay the penalties for a few more years till the fine gets as costly as buying insurance. That should solve everything :confused:

Run some numbers yourself.
http://coveredca.com/calculating_the_cost.html

You're a funny guy, Squiggs.

And wrong. :)

Cort said:

A quick look at cali's website shows a single person making 25k a year will pay $144 a month. $1728/year..... about 7% tax increase. I know some folks who make 25k. 1700 bucks is hardly "very little to ask" of them.

Guess they can just pay the penalties for a few more years till the fine gets as costly as buying insurance. That should solve everything :confused:

Run some numbers yourself.
http://coveredca.com/calculating_the_cost.html

Click to expand...

This is the thing what you are saying is not necessarily a tax increase as much as it is paying for an insurance plan, the silver package at that. There are cheaper plans available and more will increasingly come out as the exchange starts. But check this out, during my twenties in college the cheapest way for me to get health insurance (mind you I don't smoke cigarettes, have no major health flaws, and very little in the way of genetic susceptibility) was through the university plan (universities require everyone to have health insurance that are enrolled) and the insurance cost me 1200 dollars for 4 months, or 300 dollars a month. I looked into obtaining insurance for myself earlier this year in california and it was similar, a little higher for the equivalent of the silver plan being offered. While you may not need the insurance at the moment, you never know when you are going to need it and this is simply a way to control the fucked up insurance companies from dropping coverage when you get sick or denying it in the first place and then allowing for the insurance to actually be affordable. This also assumes that you're not able to get insurance through your job, which may be more affordable, but at the current rate 144 is less than half of what the insurance would cost currently.
I would say that this plan falls short of my ideal world, shit we would not pay a dime for insurance if it were up to me, but this is a good start in the right direction. We pay more in this country per person for healthcare than any other western nation and receive the least for our money, it is time that we start mimicking what is working over in Europe, Canada, U.k.. I think that like social security this program will be loved by after a few years of implementation.

By the way, I don't think there is a data system in place that can tell if everyone is covered or not. I would assume that you could keep on keeping on the way that you do until getting sick and then paying a small fine for not having insurance and simultaneously obtain insurance (both of which is ironically cheaper than getting sick/hurt in most cases as it is today without insurance) upon the ambulance ride or hospital check-in. I may be wrong on this, but this is the way I am reading the law at the moment.

I would love for everyone to have affordable or free health care...I dont mind paying either..

social security insurance sounded like a good thing too. :rolleyes:

I wonder why so Many want to Opt out of Obamacare?o_O

kolah said:

You're a funny guy, Squiggs.

And wrong. :)

Click to expand...

When it comes to my extended opinion I may be wrong, it's just an opinion.

It is a fact, though, that you have the option to pay a tax OR retain health insurance. The tax really isn't all that bad for most people (for a good chunk of people it ends up being about $100). For others who are MUCH better off it ends up being about as bad as a years worth of health insurance is (between 1200-2500).

All in all, the policy is a tax. It's not some insane socialist takeover. That's a fact.

A takeover would be:

1. All physicians on government payroll.
2. Hospitals and equipment within paid for by government.
3. Government control of insurance (at the very least a government option).
4. Prices set by the government.

You would need AT LEAST ONE of those to be true to even get close to labeling it a "takeover". Without any of these being held true, calling it a takeover is nothing but you falling in line with the "sheeple" you're all too keen to talk mess about any other day and picking up on the republican buzz phraseology.

If I'm wrong about any of that, I'd love to hear specifically why. My guess is that you'd have an extremely difficult time making a counterpoint to any of what I've said here.

My drawn out argument from before had plenty of possible flaws and counterpoints--but all of what is written here is based firmly in the reality of the situation. The only way to argue with any of it is to change the definition of one, or more, of the following words:

1. Takeover
2. Healthcare System
3. Government
4. Health Insurance
5. Tax

Cort said:

A quick look at cali's website shows a single person making 25k a year will pay $144 a month. $1728/year..... about 7% tax increase. I know some folks who make 25k. 1700 bucks is hardly "very little to ask" of them.

Guess they can just pay the penalties for a few more years till the fine gets as costly as buying insurance. That should solve everything :confused:

Run some numbers yourself.
http://coveredca.com/calculating_the_cost.html

Click to expand...

You are calculating the cost to be insured under coveredca--NOT the cost of the tax penalty.

I'd suggest that you check in to the numbers you are running more closely. I'll be happy to run some for you here, I'm sort of a mathy dude :)

The tax penalty only hits on about 6-8% of Americans, which is to say that only this percentage of Americans must ask the question: "Is it better to pay the penalty or to retain health insurance?"

A single person making 25,000 a year would be subject to a tax penalty of ~$152 per year under Obamacare (after subsidies/credits--could be lower depending on their personal situation).

You do not pay a tax if:

1. Your income is below the income tax filing threshold

2. The highest calculated tax would make up more than 8% of your income

3. Federal subsidies/credits cover your share of the premiums (which is the case for most Americans)

4. You are covered by the government.


In the event that you are subject to the penalty, it will be the higher of one of the following:

1. Flat dollar amount @ $95 (this increases yearly through 2016, but does have a cap on it) per uninsured adult in your household + half that amount for each uninsured dependent child.

2. Percentage of your income @ 1% (2% 2015, 2.5% 2016) which is capped at the average cost of a bronze insurance plan through your state exchange (which will be just about the lowest possible cost for insurance in your state).

ALSO, the federal subsidies and tax credits for insurance have been expanded such that they cast an EXTREMELY wide net on Americans. If everyone files the proper paperwork, it is estimated that less than 4% of Americans will be subject to any penalty EVEN WITHOUT BEING COVERED.

Whoever sent you to that website is trying to get you to buy insurance (surprise, surprise)--they are NOT trying to save you money or tell you what the real deal is.

Even if a person making $25,000 were subject to the highest total tax (they are not) it would equal $250 per year, MUCH less than your calculation of ~$1700. In 2016 it wouldn't even cost 40% of that figure (it would be 2.5% of their income, again if they fell into this bracket which they would not, which is $625/yr)

In my book asking a person making $25,000/yr to pay 150 bucks (or even 250) is an INFINITESIMAL amount to ask from them as a contribution to their country to see that:

1. People who pay their premiums for 25 years cannot be denied care when they finally need to cash in on their insurance as a result of shady business practices from insurance companies.

2. 30million+ additional impoverished people (mostly children) can be covered under an extremely basic health insurance plan.

If ALL of my tax money were spent so well I'd be happy to pay them. Unfortunately that isn't the case, but this is a policy which--when it is all said and done and we're 20 years down the road from all of this bullshit and fanfare--goes a long way towards showing that we CAN spend tax money well in this country if we put our minds to it.

10 years from now when the sky hasn't fallen and life has barely changed for most Americans (excepting the millions of underprivileged children who had since been covered) I am going to be sure to remind conservatives that this was them circa 2008:

Hopefully by that time they will have realized that it's precisely this type of behavior which is marginalizing their party more and more, because I am a true believer in the two party system. Even while I'm a liberal democrat I hate to see the republican party falling on its sword--because I know that uncontested liberals are as bad as sore loser republicans.

squiggly said:

Whoever sent you to that website is trying to get you to buy insurance (surprise, surprise)--they are NOT trying to save you money or tell you what the real deal is.

Click to expand...

Thank you for making my point so clearly.

That website is from the state of California, it is the cost estimator for the ObamaCare exchange.

"In 2010, California was the first state in the nation to enact legislation to implement the provisions of the federal Affordable Care Act by creating a health care marketplace – Covered California."

Cort said:

Thank you for making my point so clearly.

That website is from the state of California, it is the cost estimator for the ObamaCare exchange.

"In 2010, California was the first state in the nation to enact legislation to implement the provisions of the federal Affordable Care Act by creating a health care marketplace – Covered California."

Click to expand...

I bolded the important part of your quote (which is where you're missing the bus, I think).

Here you go dude:

http://www.healthinsurance.org/learn/obamacare-penalty-calculator/

Not missing the bus.

In #132 I clearly state, if they cant afford the requirement to buy insurance (a 7% tax for a single adult making 25k) they can always pay the penalty.

Forcing one to buy insurance that, even though its only $140 a month, many cant afford or fining those who dont. What was solved for those who cant afford insurance but dont qualify for handouts? 25k a year aint exactly big pimpin.