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Oh My God, He Turned It INSIDE OUT!!!

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  • Start date Start date Apr 6, 2013
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Oh My God, He Turned It INSIDE OUT!!!

ttystikk Apr 6, 2013 381 Replies 55,854 Views
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Am I nuts? Or, does an inside-out tree make sense to you?

  • He's whack! No way will this work.

    Votes: 3 6.8%
  • Plants can put up with a lot, but this isn't going anywhere.

    Votes: 4 9.1%
  • Anything is possible- it could work, right?

    Votes: 25 56.8%
  • I like it, but it's no revolution.

    Votes: 10 22.7%
  • This is the Future of indoor gardening!

    Votes: 11 25.0%

  • Total voters
    44
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ttystikk

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#1
So back in my covering to trees thread, I asked a lot of questions about how others were growing their trees- and I got even more than I asked for. Thank You! My head was spinning with ideas about growing bigger plants than I ever had before, and with questions about how to deal with the extra heat, the ventilation, and so on. I just kept looking at my drawings and being disgusted at all that light going places there weren't plants.

I read Cap's thread about his wall o' dank, and listened carefully to Jalisco Kid's comments about both his hedges and his concerns about ventilation. I ruminated, I smoked a few bowls, I put it down and came back, and still I did not like the trees approach I was taking. It just seemed like an incredible waste of power- and, inspiration struck!

TURN THE TREE INSIDE OUT! The 4' tall field fencing I was going to trellis the trees with, about 3.5' in diameter, would now be the trellis for vertical wall o' dank style grow, only now I'm putting the bulb INSIDE the cylinder! Now, I know you have a thousand questions, so let me cover the basics first:

"It" is two half circles of 4" square mesh field fencing, four feet tall by 5.5 running feet. Two of these together make a four foot tall by about 3.5 foot diameter trellis. Doing the math; that's 22 square feet for each half, or 44 sq ft per cylinder, and 4 cylinders will fit in the room! That's 176 square feet of CANOPY SPACE in a room that is only 100sq ft in size! These are wired together at the ends so they can hinge a bit when closed, or open easily for the grower to get inside and work. These are also hung from the ceiling, eliminating stands, feet, etc. Under each half moon is a 27 gallon tuffbox with one 10" net pot in it. The net pot is full of chowmix and fed with top drop irrigation- water comes from the RDWC beneath. The 8 tuffboxes in the room make up the RDWC feeding all these plans.

1. Heat- with a whole 21" from bulb to trellis, how am I going to avoid burning everything? I designed a vertical light mover, to raise and lower the bulb and socket up and down the centerline of the cylinder. Since it moves, it eliminates the hot spot. In addition, leaf shading is also a memory. I'm kitting up the vertical mover now; total cost of parts is about $50. If anyone is interested in McGuyver's latest gadget, let me know and I'll start a thread about it, over in the advanced techniques forum.

2. Ventilation- how do I get air to the plants? Well, since it's a vertical cylinder, the things ventilate themselves! If needed, I can place a fan in the middle blowing straight up, cooling everything and making a lovely breeze- cool and co2 laden air up from the floor, hot air exhausted out the top. Too easy!

3. Lighting- how does this 44 square feet get adequate light? Hang a 1000w bulb vertically in the middle, and let my little vertical light mover lift and lower than bulb through those 4 feet all day long... This is the heart of the system; nearly 100% efficient utilization of the bulb's light output. Next to no light will escape; early on, I will wrap mylar around the lower part of the cylinder to help it grow, but once the canopy fills in, even this will be unnecessary. So now every square inch of the entire 44sq ft canopy is all at the exact optimum distance from the light.

I will elaborate on my progress regularly. Ask any questions you like, I think that between the cylinder and the vertical light mover, this is a brand new concept.
 
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M.S.T.

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#2
Sounds sweet, can't wait to see it in action. Best of luck with progress, Mac.
 
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psilo

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#3
Just curious, have you considered 2 600's instead of a 1k and mover?
 
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ttystikk

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#4
psilo said:
Just curious, have you considered 2 600's instead of a 1k and mover?
Click to expand...

Yes. I have 1000w systems and no 600w units, plus I have lots of experience building and using light movers. Moving the bulb eliminate the hot spot, two 600s would not. A moving 1000 will eliminate leaf shading and will light the top and bottom ends, twin 600s would not.

All the above being true, I plan to build a cylinder sized for a moving 600 soon.

Finally, this thing has 44sq ft of canopy space in it; I'm thinking I need as much light as I can cram in there!
 
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ttystikk

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#5
Parts list for the Pogo vertical light mover; see pic below.
Vertical mogul socket- 240v lumatek digi with dimming and superlumens.
String, will wind around the motor spindle.
Reversing button style switch.
Tamiya dc motor and reduction gearbox kit.
AC adapter and power supply.
There are a few more odds and ends needed, like a stick and mounts for the switch and motor, etc.

Should have something cobbled together in a few days!
 
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AlterNation

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#6
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/diy-arena-style-vscrog-v2-0.49030/

-Sooooo, basically, you're doing this? (And I chuckle, because that is also my plan.)
 
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Theoneandonly Z

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#7
so are you thinking something similar to this but only with one tree?


(no credit to me, this pic is borrowed from marlo on another site)
Z
 
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ttystikk

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#8
Z man! The size and shape look similar. Since I can't see the light, I can't speak to the potential differences there. My setup is very carefully designed around the bulb to trellis distance. I will copy n paste a table I posted in another thread, it will help shed more light on my approach's specific details.
 
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Theoneandonly Z

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#9
Theoneandonly Z said:
so are you thinking something similar to this but only with one tree?
View attachment 304151

(no credit to me, this pic is borrowed from marlo on another site)
Z
Click to expand...

EDIT: pic was originally posted by Bud-Boy and shared by Marlo* overlooked the reference.

ttystikk said:
Z man! The size and shape look similar. Since I can't see the light, I can't speak to the potential differences there. My setup is very carefully designed around the bulb to trellis distance. I will copy n paste a table I posted in another thread, it will help shed more light on my approach's specific details.
Click to expand...
thats awesome ttystikk, will be interesting to see how yours works out. Curious on your findings of how to keep the temp down. ive seen people use vertical hanging "Cool - Tubes". Nice pogo setup by the way! Much luck.Z
 
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fishwhistle

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#10
ttystikk said:
Parts list for the Pogo vertical light mover; see pic below.
Vertical mogul socket- 240v lumatek digi with dimming and superlumens.
String, will wind around the motor spindle.
Reversing button style switch.
Tamiya dc motor and reduction gearbox kit.
AC adapter and power supply.
There are a few more odds and ends needed, like a stick and mounts for the switch and motor, etc.

Should have something cobbled together in a few days!View attachment 304084
Click to expand...
What no bicycle?LOL,bring it on.
 
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ttystikk

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#11
No 'repurposed' mountain bikes here, sorry! Your girlfriend's beater is safe-at least for now! LMAO!

I've seen Wavegem's ewok treegrow thread with his CUSTOM MADE cooltubes- that is an inspiration for this project! In the event that my cylinder doesn't act enough like a chimney, I will beg him to build me two of his cooltubes.

I will try that as a last resort, however; not only do I expect the chimney shape to naturally direct air up and out of the system, but I can place a fan at the bottom facing up and this will accelerate the air up through the trellis. I seriously doubt I will need additional cooling beyond that.

One main design goal of this particular project is to eliminate any and all barriers to light between bulb and buds. That means no reflectors, no wall treatments and no glass between plants and bulb- other than the bulb's own envelope, of course. That, and keeping my bike in the garage... lol
 
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ttystikk

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#12
I originally posted this in Alternation's thread:

You had mentioned in my thread that what you're doing and what I'm doing are about the same. While the vertical approach is similar, our systems have a lot of differences. Chief among these is that in the round cylinder of the design I'm working on, there will be no relatively dark spots in corners, or at either end. The reason for this is that your bulbs are stationary at a set distance from the canopy- far enough that stationary bulbs won't burn the plants. By contrast, my bulb is closer to the trellis, it is the same distance to all parts of the trellis- being round- and it is positioned close enough that if the light mover fails, the light will likely burn plants.

I'm not going to say what mine will produce, since i haven't done any runs with it yet. Therefore mine is not 'better', just 'different.' Have you done an exact count of the square footage of canopy space in your design? This became a critical measurement for my design; setting the desired distance between bulb and trellis also dictated the overall diameter. To be more specific:

24" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 4', total area is pi x 4' = 12.5 feet by 4 feet tall = 50 sq ft

21" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 3.5', total area is pi x 3.5' = 11 feet, by 4 feet tall = 44 sq ft

18" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 3', total area is pi x 3' = 9.4 feet by 4 feet tall = 37 sq ft

I chose the middle option since I'm designing the whole thing around the light mover; too close if the bulb doesn't move, but big enough for good growing space.
 
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ttystikk

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#13
Theoneandonly Z said:
so are you thinking something similar to this but only with one tree?
View attachment 304151

(no credit to me, this pic is borrowed from marlo on another site)
Z
Click to expand...

I'm doing two trees each; one for each 22sq ft half moon, or two per cylinder, or 8 for the whole room. Each plant is in a 27 gallon tuffbox RDWC site so it gets the room and the nutes to be able to sustain the plant when it fills in that whole canopy!
 
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Theoneandonly Z

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#14
ttystikk said:
I'm doing two trees each; one for each 22sq ft half moon, or two per cylinder, or 8 for the whole room. Each plant is in a 27 gallon tuffbox RDWC site so it gets the room and the nutes to be able to sustain the plant when it fills in that whole canopy!
Click to expand...
thats gonna be bitchn!
 
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ttystikk

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#15
Theoneandonly Z said:
thats gonna be bitchn!
Click to expand...

Totally! I am soooooooo stoked! As an engineer- by natural inclination, not education- doing stuff like this is seriously what I live for. Let other guys do the crosses and the breeding; I'm the guy to bring your precious babies to when it's time to get the very most out of them! I think the growing environment and approach has as much or more to do with the final quality of the product as genetics do, and anyone who says differently doesn't know shit about growing, lol
 
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kushtrees

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#16
This is very cool I'm all about vertical scrogs, especially in tree form. Please take some pics for us if possible :)
Have you ever thought about a fan above the light? You could put a larger fan above them without causing any wind burn and you may be able To pull more heat away that way. That way you could use larger fans than some of the small floor fans. Just a thought though.

Are you ending or starting at 21" away from the bulb?
 
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psilo

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#17
I've heard of guys using a muffin fan right underneath the bulb. I'm sure you can figure out a way to mount those.
 
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ttystikk

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#18
Here's the thing about this verti-can grow; since it looks and acts like a chimney, I won't need to push things along much. The other use for a gentle breeze is to deliver co2 to the leaves, and this is why I'm going to use a fan that has the rotating disc on the front that pushes the air off axis while it slowly spins. The effect is a nice intermittent breeze that spirals around and up the cylinder. How 'bout them apples?
 
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ttystikk

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#19
There was a question about starting or ending at 21". That's the bulb to trellis distance. The diameter of the trellis is 42", and I'll train the plants along and around that. Once stretch is over, the buds can grow in towards the center by up to 6". This still leaves 15" to the bulb, acceptable because the bulb is constantly moving and does not remain in place long enough to burn.

So much for the downside, now for the upside; since the bulb will be only 15" from the buds, that really delivers an impossibly big peak watts per square foot number! That is incredible power that no plant could take for long! How can the plants take it?! Is possible because the bulb continuously moves, fast enough that no place gets blasted for long enough to do harm. I think this intermittent blast of ultra high light intensity will give the plants the energy to grow strongly, perhaps more strongly than in a lesser continuous lighting environment. Many professionals use the term daily light interval, or DLI. This is the total amount of light available to the plant all told through one day's cycle. If I can blast the plants with super high intensities of light for short periods, but repetitively, I can potentially get a higher DLI figure than other approaches, even including my older light rotator designs.

Thoughts?
 
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One Flip

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#20
I like the idea of using Wavegems's liquid cooled design..did he ever measure the reduction in light from being water cooled? it would be a good back up if your pogo idea doesn't pan out.. double stacked 6's or 1k's in a 5ft air cooled tube would be dope 2. I remember awhile back you made a compelling argument that air cooled / semi sealed is more efficient than bare / shitload of cooling. Personally.. I like 6's, aaw's & neg pressure.. Although, I find the more time I spend on this site the closer I get to being sucked down the bare bulb massive AC sink hole... I feel like I'm entering a timeless pit in search for total control of a perfect environment that will always be evolving and never completed..I guess that's what keeps everybody coming back :)
 
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Replies 381
Views 55,854
Started Apr 6, 2013
Latest post Feb 4, 2014
Starter ttystikk
Forum Tree Farming

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