Plants Losing Vigor, Yellowing and Slow

[WalterBlack]

Hey knowledgeable people!

My plants seem to be losing vigor around early to mid flower resulting in buds that just don't get as big as they should and i just can't figure out why.

I run a 4x4 , with an S44 Ac Infinity LED

Temp with light off is about 24c and light on is around 18c (Got a Heater coming to regulate it better)
Humidity is always 60%
I get 800-1000 light readings at the top of the plant

2 Plants are in Fabric pots on Wicking Bases and other 2 are in just regular plastic pots
Grow medium is "Quality" seedling soil mixed with coco and perlite and few cups of quality worm castings.

Ive top fed them with worm castings twice and seen the roots grow through it
and i am bottom watering 90% of the time

I tested the soil PH with 2 different methods and both show 6.5 - 7 depending on which plant.

They are all different cultivars, one thing of note you can basically tie a knot in the leaf stalks they are rubbery

I don't know, i am stumped and annoyed i feel defeated
Any input would be appreciated

 

[Greenadian]

Hey there @WalterBlack plants really arent looking too bad! I myself have never measured the ph in soil, just make sure the water going in is around 6.0
I would say its about time to give them a watering or two from the top side, use up the nutrients that you blended into the soil.
All the plants look equally the same light green/yellow so I would say its time to up the nutrients as they look hungry.

 

[Jmaes Mabley]

Yeah, it looks to me the plants are starving.

 

[ArtfulCodger]

Another vote here for hunger. The combination of top feeding while bottom watering probably isn't the best, just because all the water isn't pulled through your amendments by gravity. Also, there might be an issue of what's being fed, depending on the nutrient content of your worm castings.

 

[RoadKillSkunkHunt]

They are hungry.

The problem with organic farming methods is the nutrients must break down to a useable form before the plant can uptake it. So many things can alter the timing of nutrient availability in an organic grow. If it were mine, I would give the plants a salts based nutrient feeding. With synthetics, nutrients are readily available for the plant to uptake it. This is why synthetic nutrient fed plants typically produce better yields. Also, for those who see organic farming as a "superior method," a nitrogen or a phosphorus atom looks and tastes the same to the plant regardless of whether it was produced synthetically or organically.

 

[WalterBlack]

Appreciate all the input , and i was actually thinking of just using a salt based feed to try and correct it a bit i will grab some on monday and see how it goes, do you think i should remove any residual worm castings left on top before feeding with salt based nutes?

 

[FamerJ]

Hey there! A few thoughts from my experience with similar issues. Your PPFD (800-1000) at canopy level seems adequate, but use your PAR meter to check light penetration deeper in the canopy - lower buds might be starving.

 

[JIMKSI64]

You do realize that a salt based diet will kill bacteria good and bad. The issue is top feeding and bottom watering. Run and get some organic top dress nutes like Dr earth flower girl or gia green or foop or any other choice and start watering from the top to pull down nutrition. Problem is this will take a while to break down and feed.
Whatever chemical ferts you throw will be a huge change for the plants from organic to chemical. Getting the strength correct will be tough without measuring output EC.
Good luck

 

[Bobcat.Branch]

They are hungry.

The problem with organic farming methods is the nutrients must break down to a useable form before the plant can uptake it. So many things can alter the timing of nutrient availability in an organic grow. If it were mine, I would give the plants a salts based nutrient feeding. With synthetics, nutrients are readily available for the plant to uptake it. This is why synthetic nutrient fed plants typically produce better yields. Also, for those who see organic farming as a "superior method," a nitrogen or a phosphorus atom looks and tastes the same to the plant regardless of whether it was produced synthetically or organically.

Uh-oh! It's on now!

 

[RoadKillSkunkHunt]

You do realize that a salt based diet will kill bacteria good and bad. The issue is top feeding and bottom watering. Run and get some organic top dress nutes like Dr earth flower girl or gia green or foop or any other choice and start watering from the top to pull down nutrition. Problem is this will take a while to break down and feed.
Whatever chemical ferts you throw will be a huge change for the plants from organic to chemical. Getting the strength correct will be tough without measuring output EC.
Good luck

The problem with your suggestion is exactly that ... it will take time to break down and feed. So while we are waiting for the microbes to break everything down, the plant's conditions continue to get worse. It's an easy fix if a grower gives the plant a one or two time light dose of synthetic nutrients. We're not talking about a permanent change midstream. We're talking about a boost like taking a multivitamin. Microbes will replace themselves.

Your post has truths to it, but its not the whole story. For most new growers, organic gardening gives more headaches than it solves. With synthetic nutes, the microbes are not needed to feed the plant which is the very point of my suggestion in giving the plant a round of synthetics. It's readily available. I think we have reached a point looking at the grower's plant photos where the one or two time application of diluted and properly pH'd nutrients like GH Flora Series for example would bring new nutrients to the plants and buy the grower the extra time. I you're really concerned about microbe loss, it can be countered with a dose of Recharge.

Edit: Here's what Gemini said when presented with the whole situation the grower faces:

Given the scenario of a grower with struggling plants (likely due to a combination of nutrient deficiencies and watering issues) in an organic system, and having now seen photos of the plants, your suggestion of a one-time, diluted, and properly pH'd application of a well-regarded synthetic nutrient line like Flora Series, followed by a beneficial microbe product like Recharge, presents a compelling argument for a potential intervention.
Here's why your approach might be the most pragmatic way to provide immediate relief and buy the grower time:
Arguments for Your Approach:

• Rapid Nutrient Delivery: Flora Series, being a readily available synthetic nutrient, will deliver essential elements directly to the roots in an easily absorbable ionic form. This bypasses the slower breakdown process required in a purely organic system and can address severe deficiencies much more quickly.
• Precise Nutrient Targeting: By using a well-balanced nutrient line like Flora Series, the grower can provide a broad spectrum of macronutrients and micronutrients in ratios that are generally suitable for cannabis at various growth stages. Diluting the solution minimizes the risk of shocking the plant with excessive salt concentrations.
• pH Correction: Ensuring the nutrient solution is properly pH'd is crucial, especially if the soil pH has been affected by watering issues. This will optimize nutrient availability for the plant's immediate uptake.
• Recharge for Microbial Support:Your suggestion to follow up with Recharge is key. Recharge is a popular product containing a diverse blend of beneficial bacteria, fungi (including mycorrhizae), and other biostimulants. Applying this after the diluted synthetic feed can help to:
  • Re-establish Microbial Populations: Counteract any potential die-off of beneficial microbes caused by the synthetic salts.
  • Improve Nutrient Cycling: Enhance the breakdown of existing organic matter and any subsequent organic amendments.
  • Promote Root Health: Support a healthy root environment for better nutrient absorption.
  • Bridge the Gap: Help transition the plant back towards a more biologically active and organically driven system.

Considerations and Caveats:

• Dilution is Key: The success of this approach hinges on using a significantly diluted nutrient solution to avoid shocking the plant with high salt concentrations. Starting with a quarter or even an eighth of the recommended strength would be wise.
• One-Time Application (Initially): This should ideally be viewed as a temporary intervention to stabilize the plant. The grower should aim to return to a primarily organic feeding strategy once the plant shows signs of recovery.
• Monitoring is Crucial: The grower needs to closely monitor the plant's response after the synthetic feed and Recharge application. Look for signs of improvement (greening up, new growth) and any signs of stress.
• Addressing Underlying Issues: While this approach can provide immediate nutrients, it's still essential to address the likely underlying issues of poor watering practices and potentially imbalanced soil. Correcting these will be crucial for long-term success in an organic system.

Conclusion:
Given the urgency implied by the struggling plants in the photos, your suggestion to use a one-time, diluted, and pH-adjusted application of Flora Series followed by Recharge offers a pragmatic way to provide a rapid influx of necessary nutrients while also attempting to mitigate potential harm to the soil microbiome and support its recovery. This approach could indeed buy the grower the time needed to correct their watering practices and further amend their soil organically for long-term health and a return to a fully organic feeding strategy. It's a balanced approach that acknowledges the immediate needs of the plant while considering the grower's organic goals.

 

[mancorn]

Lots of good reasons to grow organic.

But synthetic nutes don’t kill microorganisms. But they can change the makeup of the microorganisms by favoring the fast-growing bacteria over slower-growing fungi and bacteria. This leads to lower overall diversity as the microbes that exploit the readily available NPK dominate, while the microorganisms that are better adapted to decomposing the organic matter are reduced.

It’s analogous to human gut biome. Your diet affects the composition and diversity of the gut microbiome. Diets high in simple sugars and low in fiber favor fast-growing gut bacteria, while fiber-rich diet promotes more diversity and beneficial bacteria. Using synthetic ferts is like eating a Big Mac, flooding the soil with simple, highly available nutrients (like nitrate or phosphate), favoring fast-growing, short-lived microbes.

Obviously eating a burger isn’t going to kill you. And if you’re starving it definitely makes sense to have one. So use the synthetic nutes. Short term use isn’t going to destroy an organic grow. (Well it won’t be organic anymore, but as long as you’re not at the farmers market selling organic weed, not a big deal. ) But just like you’re better off not eating burgers everyday, no reason to give up on using organic once your get your grow back on track.

As far as microbial inoculants (like Recharge or “mycorrhizal fungi” products) they don’t integrate well into your established soil because these new microbes either can’t compete or don’t match the soil environment. So these products might be fine if you have sterile soil, but probably a waste of money (since most of these MO will quickly die) if you already have a good living soil.

In OP case, there might be abundant organic ferts, but a shit MO population. If so then it would be better to just grab some local soil and brew a AACT which will have the MO that will work best for your environment. Of course being indoors you might not actually have an “local environment” if you started with a bag of Home Depot dirt and microbes in a bottle.

 

[WalterBlack]

Well plants look much healthier they got their green look back, did a half strength A/B nutrients and half strength Cal/Mag/Iron
thanks everyone, sorry it ended in a Synthetic vs Organic debate lol good read thought i must admit

 

[empty]

Hey knowledgeable people!

My plants seem to be losing vigor around early to mid flower resulting in buds that just don't get as big as they should and i just can't figure out why.

I run a 4x4 , with an S44 Ac Infinity LED

Temp with light off is about 24c and light on is around 18c (Got a Heater coming to regulate it better)
Humidity is always 60%
I get 800-1000 light readings at the top of the plant

2 Plants are in Fabric pots on Wicking Bases and other 2 are in just regular plastic pots
Grow medium is "Quality" seedling soil mixed with coco and perlite and few cups of quality worm castings.

Ive top fed them with worm castings twice and seen the roots grow through it
and i am bottom watering 90% of the time

I tested the soil PH with 2 different methods and both show 6.5 - 7 depending on which plant.

They are all different cultivars, one thing of note you can basically tie a knot in the leaf stalks they are rubbery

I don't know, i am stumped and annoyed i feel defeated
Any input would be appreciated

Your plants look hungry. Phosphorus deficiency and/or cold temperatures can cause purple stems. An organic solution like bone meal or compost tea should help and is worth trying.

Edited: Just read the whole comment, good to hear they’re back to being healthier.​

 

[WalterBlack]

Your plants look hungry. Phosphorus deficiency and/or cold temperatures can cause purple stems. An organic solution like bone meal or compost tea should help and is worth trying.

Edited: Just read the whole comment, good to hear they’re back to being healthier.​

Yeah i just got the heater sorted out average temp is now 25c i think low temps and lack of food slowed everything right down
Appreciate everyone who stopped to comment

 

[hightech316]

You mentioned you top feed. Nice! Keep those hungry feeder roots busy.

Next time , for a quick course correction. . Try Organics Alive. They have a sample kit. It includes a 0-10-8 , 0-10-2 and a 0-2-10 . ( Among others ) .

Your plants will love it ! They use some special technique ,Build-A-Soil pushes it on their website , that's were I found it .

I ran into this on my last run. I kept trying to correct, just was not happening in timely manner .

 

[WalterBlack]

Just thought i would post an update on how they look after
7 East Genetics , Roundhouse / Grape Dragon f2 and Pineapple Punch Bx2