Please help settle our argument over defoliating

Worldwomble · Jul 14, 2024

Hi fellow farmers.
Please help settle this longstanding (sometimes rather heated) debate between my husband and I (both somewhat inexperienced growers with knowledge gleaned from mates, Google and the local hydro shop).
One of us is of the opinion that the plants should be regularly defoliated to allow light and air through the plant and then, during budding, pretty much all of the leaves should be either removed or cut right back to allow every bud to receive as much light as possible, as shown in the first 3 photos.
The other believes that the plants need as many leaves as they can get to produce the energy needed to grow bigger buds and that the only leaves that should be removed are those that are either dead, damaged, taken during LST or fimming etc or shading other buds as shown in the last 2 photos.
If you have the time to share your thoughts, we’d really appreciate if you could please explain why or point us to some further (not too complicated ) reading on the subject.

Both of us have indoor grows
Coco peat medium in 20l fabric pots
Full Hy-Gen 2 part coco nutrient schedule every 1-2 days to run-off
Flushed with straight water once a fortnight
Grown using the SCRoG method
Lumatek 600 lights - distance from plants adjusted according to manufacturer recommendations
Light schedule of 18/6 during veg and 12/12 during flowering.
Averaging 25*C and 45% humidity

Stokes · Jul 14, 2024

I think the effect of defoliation is greatly exaggerated when it comes to bud growth. However, lightening up the canopy for improved airflow and removing lower bud sites that never grow and only leech nutrients is crucial tho

Your buds look good but there is a serious lack of fan leaves

Novaracer69 · Jul 14, 2024

I think I depends on the grow environment for me. Because I grow a majority of my flowers outside. I defol a bit in veg but a majority of it outside is before and during stretch and then I just remove leaves that are blocking but site's.

Thatoneguyyouknow_ · Jul 14, 2024

im going to go make a video of my plants to answer this question, becuse its actually somewhere in the middle.

There is actually a right way to defoliate a domesticated plant thats being fed unnaturally. And it's not a cannabis specific thing when practiced properly, nor is it an indoor or outdoor specific thing.

Brotofsky · Jul 14, 2024

I too clean everything that is not in the upper canopy. I only remove fan leaves if I’ve removed the branch that is meant to support. All other fans are left until it’s branch has depleted it of energy towards harvest

Metalman1 · Jul 14, 2024

Thatoneguyyouknow_ said:
im going to go make a video of my plants to answer this question, becuse its actually somewhere in the middle.

There is actually a right way to defoliate a domesticated plant thats being fed unnaturally. And it's not a cannabis specific thing when practiced properly, nor is it an indoor or outdoor specific thing.

That's exactly what I was going to say ! It's right in the middle of both of you. And, yes a video would be cool.

Thatoneguyyouknow_ · Jul 14, 2024

The way a cannabis plant uses storage leaves in veg and flower differed a little bit. And the plants behave a little differently in domestication then they do in nature and how they naturally evolved as well

One thing I didn't mention, is keeping under growth clean. And the amount of lower lollipopping you have to do and when, is a little different with each plant.

I also actually don't recommend doing your final lollipop until after the initial flowering stretch is done, because you will see exactly which lower shoots the plant does and doesn't push up into the canopy, and if you wait till after the stretch you can (counter intuitively) reduce the stress lollipop and causes by only lollipopping away the shoots that the plant has aborted the production of auxin in. Which also removes the lower growth sites that have a higher probability of going hermy, usually the following week

The trick to all of it, even though really there is no trick, is knowing when a cannabis plant naturally moves auxin production around, and where and why. If you do the wrong kind of pruning, in the wrong place, at the wrong times, your plants will slow down, yields diminish, even if health does not visibly suffer.

Budtirement · Jul 14, 2024

Looks like you got some dank buds growin' there in your pictures. Like seeing that!

Since you both have the same setup I would submit that the both of you are perfectly suited to provide the experimental evidence to enhance the case for one of the two strategies. You do it your way, Partner does it the other way. Compare results. Please let us know.

Imho I think any leaf that gets enough light, water and nutrients to remain green is using light to produce food for the plant. In a tent with a stationary light above, leaves at the bottom are going to have a hard time. If it's yellow, remove it, sure. Inproper watering can also lead to yellow leaves lower down. Once they turn, cut 'em off. But it would be better to try to get light onto healthy leaves lower down on the plant or under the canopy with various strategies, and those leaves could be making food. Having more food at its disposal should help in the production of all new tissues. Training the plant to keep space between colas should negate the need to remove useful leaves from the canopy. Fan leaves are solar panels powering the whole operation. Why reduce the juice?

I do think that all suckers on nodes below the budding areas should be removed in the weeks before the begining of flower so that the plant won't waste resources growing additional stems or larf. That energy needs to go up.

Thatoneguyyouknow_ · Jul 14, 2024

As far as defoliating in flower goes, just follow the veg defoliation, and* the lolipoppin and defoliating in flower advice i gave both, and youll be starring down colas like this in no time.

And even the bottom stuff develops in total shade fine, so long as their feeder fan leaves are in light and *not removed*. The cola on the left and right both were in total shade on the buds starting about halfway down. But their feeder leaves had no problem getting into light because i kept up with my veg defoliating properly. Most plants are pretty damn good at figuring that part out on their own, so long as you ket up with ideal veg defoliating and lolipopped the appropriate lower growth post-stretch.

Metalman1 · Jul 14, 2024

Thatoneguyyouknow_ said:
The way a cannabis plant uses storage leaves in veg and flower differed a little bit. And the plants behave a little differently in domestication then they do in nature and how they naturally evolved as well

One thing I didn't mention, is keeping under growth clean. And the amount of lower lollipopping you have to do and when, is a little different with each plant.

I also actually don't recommend doing your final lollipop until after the initial flowering stretch is done, because you will see exactly which lower shoots the plant does and doesn't push up into the canopy, and if you wait till after the stretch you can (counter intuitively) reduce the stress lollipop and causes by only lollipopping away the shoots that the plant has aborted the production of auxin in. Which also removes the lower growth sites that have a higher probability of going hermy, usually the following week

The trick to all of it, even though really there is no trick, is knowing when a cannabis plant naturally moves auxin production around, and where and why. If you do the wrong kind of pruning, in the wrong place, at the wrong times, your plants will slow down, yields diminish, even if health does not visibly suffer.

Good info. Thanks.

Captspaulding · Jul 15, 2024

Also, more leaves equals larger buds.
The leaves are what feed the plant, why in the hell take those? Never seen a defoliated plant do better than one that hasn’t been…..
It’s not like once you take the leaf the buds going to magically do the leaves job now?

Defoliation should be done to open up tops to the light, not every inch of every stalk,
Buds still swell even when they are covered, because they have a pantry (leaves) to grub.
Every time I see a massively completely stripped plant it makes me think of people who flush in soil.

HerbalEdu · Jul 15, 2024

less leaves = less carbon processed through photosynthesis

carbon is 50% of plant dry mass

Sunin · Jul 15, 2024

As usual you both have right whatever works
To know for sure you have to grow like your husband wants and then like you want and compare smoke and results. As far as marital projects go- this sounds interesting
Not removing fans makes maintenance a bit more intensive but in my opinion have difference in bud. I leave on as much as I can, even if it looks like shit a little bit
I even tie them up to leave them if they flop in my working area using them as counterbalance for smaller fast shoots to slow them down.

schwazzing is not for me (as what you have there is schwazzing) so I vote for not removing side.
All fans tell things in grow and flower allowing me to react fast if something is not right- I need them there. You can just tuck them under canopy with bit of work
And at the very end I like when plants suck out life of those fans loading it all in buds

Beachbumm · Jul 15, 2024

Worldwomble said:
Hi fellow farmers.
Please help settle this longstanding (sometimes rather heated) debate between my husband and I (both somewhat inexperienced growers with knowledge gleaned from mates, Google and the local hydro shop).
One of us is of the opinion that the plants should be regularly defoliated to allow light and air through the plant and then, during budding, pretty much all of the leaves should be either removed or cut right back to allow every bud to receive as much light as possible, as shown in the first 3 photos.
The other believes that the plants need as many leaves as they can get to produce the energy needed to grow bigger buds and that the only leaves that should be removed are those that are either dead, damaged, taken during LST or fimming etc or shading other buds as shown in the last 2 photos.
If you have the time to share your thoughts, we’d really appreciate if you could please explain why or point us to some further (not too complicated ) reading on the subject.

Both of us have indoor grows
Coco peat medium in 20l fabric pots
Full Hy-Gen 2 part coco nutrient schedule every 1-2 days to run-off
Flushed with straight water once a fortnight
Grown using the SCRoG method
Lumatek 600 lights - distance from plants adjusted according to manufacturer recommendations
Light schedule of 18/6 during veg and 12/12 during flowering.
Averaging 25*C and 45% humidity

View attachment 2219213 View attachment 2219218 View attachment 2219214 View attachment 2219235 View attachment 2219236

I've never removed a healthy leaf in my life!

Okay maybe a few here and there late in the grow but that's about it.

No growers did it back in the last century and it was just fine, because y'all smoked plenty of our weed back then, and it was arguably better weed for the most part too

Defoliation, like so many other things is just a trend in my humble opinion.

Edit: oh and I do strip down the bottom foot or so sometimes, if I'm feeling energetic

Captspaulding · Jul 15, 2024

Beachbumm said:
I've never removed a healthy leaf in my life!

Okay maybe a few here and there late in the grow but that's about it.

No growers did it back in the last century and it was just fine, because y'all smoked plenty of our weed back then, and it was arguably better weed for the most part too

Defoliation, like so many other things is just a trend in my humble opinion

Edit: oh and I do strip down the bottom foot or so sometimes, if I'm feeling energetic

Yeah I strip the bottoms of mine as well, but that actually serves a noticeable purpose. Defoliated plants remind of this dude
And shit I still tell new folks to leave sick leaves o. Bc a sick leaf is still a functioning leaf, just no optimal.

HerbalEdu · Jul 15, 2024

i also remove as less leaves as possible, i usually let the bottom leaves decaying until they fall by themselves.

this is the kind of defoliation i m doing: just a few leaves to give a better light exposure to some lower branches, usually between middle of flowering stretch to the end of flowering stretch.

Captspaulding · Jul 15, 2024

HerbalEdu said:
i also remove as less leaves as possible, i usually let the bottom leaves decaying until they fall by themselves.

this is the kind of defoliation i m doing: just a few leaves to give a better light exposure to some lower branches, usually between middle of flowering stretch to the end of flowering stretch.

View attachment 2219470 View attachment 2219471

Nice touch
Great work man

Captspaulding · Jul 15, 2024

oh also, full disclosure,
There are times, very rare and the circumstances are dictated by acts of god here. But take for instance that right now I’m ending day 7 of a blackout bc of a fucking dickhead named beryl. I’ve been on generator power for both veg and flower rooms the whole time, so my lights are allllll the way down to 1%, dropped a lot closer to offset the loss of wattage a bit, but then, the big one. The rh here is through the roof right now.and it’s crazy hot, so I cant run the dehumidifier without stressing things more. so i am actually doing hearty defoliation on the plants to mitigate that higher rh, bc my fans are running low and slow. I have my plants spread out a bunch also, my point there are objective uses for it. It’s just not something that I think should be, or ever be , standard practice.

Budtirement · Jul 15, 2024

Thatoneguyyouknow_ said:
The way a cannabis plant

Thanks for that lesson, very interesting

Budtirement · Jul 15, 2024

HerbalEdu said:
i also remove as less leaves as possible

Your grow canopy looks very healthy. Colas spaced out so light is getting to each and no need to prune much to keep them in the light.

Please help settle our argument over defoliating

Please help settle our argument over defoliating

Worldwomble

Stokes

Novaracer69

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Brotofsky

Metalman1

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Attachments

Budtirement

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Attachments

Metalman1

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

HerbalEdu

Sunin

Beachbumm

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Attachments

HerbalEdu

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Budtirement

Budtirement

Please help settle our argument over defoliating

Please help settle our argument over defoliating

Worldwomble

Stokes

Novaracer69

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Brotofsky

Metalman1

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Attachments

Budtirement

Thatoneguyyouknow_

Attachments

Metalman1

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

HerbalEdu

Sunin

Beachbumm

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Attachments

HerbalEdu

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Captspaulding

What’s the matter? Don’t like clowns? 🤡

Budtirement

Budtirement

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