Polyploidy question.

ProGroWannabe · Dec 15, 2008

Thanks grizz, Zoo!

Here's a couple of shots of her:

ProGroWannabe · Dec 15, 2008

Zoolander said:
I've had more then a few with 3 at each node all the way thru flower .

Well I guess it's not as unusual as I thought then....lol. She has four at each node, but 3....4.....no real difference there I suppose.

Finalopagus · Dec 16, 2008

Zoolander said:
I've had more then a few with 3 at each node all the way thru flower .

What strains were these Zoo? Have you tried to stabilize this trait?

Ya'll think it is a Indica only or Sativa only trait?

grizz · Dec 17, 2008

I think its way more prevelent in idica that sativa's, its rare to get them to stay tri or quad all the way throuh flower, mine are usally on one branch or just the main stem.

BombBP · Dec 18, 2008

Zoolander said:
I've had more then a few with 3 at each node all the way thru flower .

The first purple wreck I grew had 3 a node and was a female. Retained the growth pattern throughout flower too:).

ProGroWannabe · Dec 18, 2008

Nice one BombBP!

Thisn one just showed itself as a female...yeaaa! Now lets see if I can capitalize on the extra branching with vertical bulbs.

grizz · Dec 18, 2008

I know its a newbee question but what is the deffination of polyploid ?

BombBP · Dec 18, 2008

Polyploidy in plants

Polyploidy is pervasive in plants and some estimates suggest that 30-80% of living plant species are polyploid, and many lineages show evidence of ancient polyploidy (paleopolyploidy) in their genomes.[4] Huge explosions in angiosperm species diversity appear to have coincided with the timing of ancient genome duplications shared by many species.[5] Polyploid plants can arise spontaneously in nature by several mechanisms, including meiotic or mitotic failures, and fusion of unreduced (2n) gametes.[6] Both autopolyploids (eg. potato) and allopolyploids (eg. canola, wheat, cotton) can be found among both wild and domesticated plant species. Most polyploids display heterosis relative to their parental species, and may display novel variation or morphologies that may contribute to the processes of speciation and eco-niche exploitation.[7] The mechanisms leading to novel variation in newly formed allopolyploids may include gene dosage effects (resulting from more numerous copies of genome content), the reunion of divergent gene regulatory hierarchies, chromosomal rearrangements, and epigenetic remodeling, all of which affect gene content and/or expression levels.[8] Many of these rapid changes may contribute to reproductive isolation and speciation.

There are few naturally occurring polyploid conifers. One example is the giant tree Sequoia sempervirens or Coast Redwood which is a hexaploid (6x) with 66 chromosomes (2n=6x=66), although the origin is unclear.

From Wikipedia:).

BombBP · Dec 18, 2008

Oops, guess I could've added the definition:).

Polyploidy is a state different from most organisms which are normally diploid meaning they have only two sets of chromosomes - one set inherited from each parent; polyploidy may occur due to abnormal cell division. It is most commonly found in plants. Haploidy may also occur as a normal stage in an organism's life. A haploid has only one set of chromosomes.

Polyploidy occurs in some animals, such as goldfish, salmon, and salamanders, but is especially common among ferns and flowering plants (see Hibiscus Rosa-Sinensis), including both wild and cultivated species. Wheat, for example, after millennia of hybridization and modification by humans, has strains that are diploid (two sets of chromosomes), tetraploid (four sets of chromosomes) with the common name of durum or macaroni wheat, and hexaploid (six sets of chromosomes) with the common name of bread wheat. Many agriculturally important plants of the genus Brassica are also tetraploids; their relationship is described by the Triangle of U.

The occurrence of polyploidy is a mechanism of speciation and is known to have resulted in new species of the plant Salsify (also known as "goatsbeard").
Speciation via polyploidy: A diploid cell undergoes failed meiosis, producing diploid gametes, which self-fertilize to produce a tetraploid zygote.

Polyploidy can be induced in cell culture by some chemicals: the best known is colchicine, which can result in chromosome doubling, though its use may have other less obvious consequences as well.

ProGroWannabe · Dec 18, 2008

Hey thanks BombBP! That's a load of info. Ya gotta love Wiki.

Finalopagus · Dec 19, 2008

Polyploidy can be induced in cell culture by some chemicals: the best known is colchicine, which can result in chromosome doubling, though its use may have other less obvious consequences as well

yea.... is there anyway to tell if the seed/mom has been treated with colchicine? besides polyploiding which can happen naturally

ProGroWannabe · Dec 19, 2008

Someone else may be more knowledgeable on this one Final, but I believe the only way would be a DNA test to count the chromosomes.

grizz · Dec 19, 2008

Damn I asked a simple question and I get a answer that must be in the russian langauge. Got most of it Bomb, remember reading that stuff about tweanty years ago, lol..

Kojiman · Oct 9, 2017

ProGroWannabe said:
Hey fellers, I have a plant in my garden that is exibiting an odd growth pattern. At each node, there are four leaf stems coming out from the main stem. They aren't in perfect alignment, but they are all there within 1/4" of each other.

My question is, can one tell whether a plant is a polyploid by it's external appearance, or is true determination only possible by examining and counting the chromosomes under a microscope?

Only by digestion and microscope but check this out, I have the exact same thing going on and haven't even opened my Surflan AS jug and haven't processed the Colchicum Autumnale corms (which were pricey)to make any stock or working solutions. I ran a polyploidy strain from Washington state in the late 80's and I swear that NOTHING compares to that. I couldn't grow it fast enough. better than hash and that smell!
I am going to do whatever it takes to get a poly strain going and if you stumble across(or know how to create one easily) any methods please let me know. visa versa

BioStimz · Oct 9, 2017

Kojiman said:
I am going to do whatever it takes to get a poly strain going and if you stumble across(or know how to create one easily) any methods please let me know. visa versa

I'm just at the early stage of researching colchicine-induced polyploidy, but from what I've gathered.... it's a real bitch to do from seed. The colchicine kills nearly all the seeds, so you have to have a LARGE amount of seeds to start with.

Not very practical. However, I am interested in toying with another colchicine method when I get back in the game. It involves making a colchicine/lanolin paste which you apply to the axil of a plant or cut.

If nobody sheds more light on this, I'll re-visit this thread and let you know how good or bad it went.

~

Toaster79 · Oct 9, 2017

Whorled phylotaxy:

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/breeding-for-whorls.63887/

Kojiman · Oct 9, 2017

Kojiman said:
Only by digestion and microscope but check this out, I have the exact same thing going on and haven't even opened my Surflan AS jug and haven't processed the Colchicum Autumnale corms (which were pricey)to make any stock or working solutions. I ran a polyploidy strain from Washington state in the late 80's and I swear that NOTHING compares to that. I couldn't grow it fast enough. better than hash and that smell!
I am going to do whatever it takes to get a poly strain going and if you stumble across(or know how to create one easily) any methods please let me know. visa versa

BioStimz said:
I'm just at the early stage of researching colchicine-induced polyploidy, but from what I've gathered.... it's a real bitch to do from seed. The colchicine kills nearly all the seeds, so you have to have a LARGE amount of seeds to start with.

Not very practical. However, I am interested in toying with another colchicine method when I get back in the game. It involves making a colchicine/lanolin paste which you apply to the axil of a plant or cut.

If nobody sheds more light on this, I'll re-visit this thread and let you know how good or bad it went.

~

be carefull. are you going to try smearing it on the cotyledon /meristem immediately after sprout?
I think i will make a stock solution of Surflan AS(oryzalin 40.4%) before i mess with the more toxic "C".
When i created my first polyploids(3 out of 40) they all died within 3 weeks of " birth". the stems were approx .75 wide and only about .o6 thick, curving left and right. crazy looking like a cactus, i was stoked, until they slowly ded. if u can get a poly to veg and keep it cloned, u will be soooo happy, i was.

MamaBear · Oct 12, 2017

Unfortunately, plants that are treated to become poly usually revert back at some point (they will split on their own). I have some that are natural - I did not treat them with anything - they just grew this way and even they reverted. If you've got 1 that keeps that multi-branching all they way to the end - KEEP HER AND CLONE HER LIKE CRAZY!
Here's a couple quads that split on their own into 2 regular branches.

On this one, it split and 1 side stayed quad - other side returned to normal. The quad side eventually split again and returned to normal also.

oregonized · Oct 12, 2017

Polyploidy is in genetic structure, a DNA analysis would be the 1st place to start.....then phenotypes will appear, not the other way around.

MamaBear · Oct 12, 2017

If ya really want to be sure - get it tested. You don't have to go for the full DNA test, just a simple chromosome count.

There's a big difference between polyploidy and whorled phyllotaxy. The latter (extra branching) is way more common and not always a sure sign of polyploidism.

Polyploidy question.

Polyploidy question.

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