Struggling with Organics, need input

[botanicalbishop]

Hey everyone, this isn't my first grow but it is my first run with 100% organics in my new house. Im at my wits end here honestly, plants are showing lots of stress on new growth (twisting/canoeing) and I'm chasing my tail now.

Not sure where to start but the girls are a little over 2 months in veg and were started from seed. Used Coots mix/recipe, and have been using ACTs every other week or so.

I know the general consensus is one shouldn't have to ph organics but my water (well) is on the high side around 7.8ph with a 200-220ppm. I wondering if this is affecting things? Or am I just over watering or is something else going on here?

Everything was going fairly good until I gave them a yarrow/nettle tea about a month back. They were showing a N deficiency or so I thought at the time.

I also thought it might be mites at one point but I havent been able to find any with my cheap microscope. I kind of ruled this out as the plant in middle isn't showing the same signs as the other 2 or isn't nearly as bad. That one is also in a smaller (3g) air pot, the other 2 are in 5 gallon if that means anything. Lights (fc1500) are sitting at 32inch with ppfd around 250.

Appreciate any input and advise, I've tried searching around here and am just getting more confused honestly. Trying not to freak out or change too much at once either.

I did flip a few days ago because I'm running out of room and tired of pruning while trying to figure this out. I might have to flip back or start over with hydro or salt based chemicals but I would rather not. I thought organics was suppose to be easier lol or am I just over thinking things?

I can get more pictures tomorrow if need be.

 

[Stokes]

They look heavy in nitrogen. You should be between 400-500 ppfd at this stage, if you turn the light up it should allow them to use the excess nitrogen quicker.

What made you think it was a nitrogen deficiency? Do you have pics what they looked like then?

 

[Mikedin]

Hey everyone, this isn't my first grow but it is my first run with 100% organics in my new house. Im at my wits end here honestly, plants are showing lots of stress on new growth (twisting/canoeing) and I'm chasing my tail now.

Not sure where to start but the girls are a little over 2 months in veg and were started from seed. Used Coots mix/recipe, and have been using ACTs every other week or so.

I know the general consensus is one shouldn't have to ph organics but my water (well) is on the high side around 7.8ph with a 200-220ppm. I wondering if this is affecting things? Or am I just over watering or is something else going on here?

Everything was going fairly good until I gave them a yarrow/nettle tea about a month back. They were showing a N deficiency or so I thought at the time.

I also thought it might be mites at one point but I havent been able to find any with my cheap microscope. I kind of ruled this out as the plant in middle isn't showing the same signs as the other 2 or isn't nearly as bad. That one is also in a smaller (3g) air pot, the other 2 are in 5 gallon if that means anything. Lights (fc1500) are sitting at 32inch with ppfd around 250.

Appreciate any input and advise, I've tried searching around here and am just getting more confused honestly. Trying not to freak out or change too much at once either.

I did flip a few days ago because I'm running out of room and tired of pruning while trying to figure this out. I might have to flip back or start over with hydro or salt based chemicals but I would rather not. I thought organics was suppose to be easier lol or am I just over thinking things?

I can get more pictures tomorrow if need be.

I agree with stokes nitrogen tox, might be something else going on too but that may be an after effect of the nitrogen, you already flipped so might be best to ride the course, back off on nitrogen and let her eat it up in stretch hopefully she can grow outta it, I also don’t PH but 7.8 out the well is pretty far outta range, not sure what effect that’s have on soil conditioning, have you had any analysis done of the water? Probably full of good minerals for organic runs but you’d wanna know if something else is off in there

My tap Ph is 7.3 my soil average is around 7 without PH’ing anything I just have a meter in my soil to monitor it to see any major swings just a cheapo one from the garden store

 

[Imzzaudae]

I would like to see some better pictures. I downloaded a copy of the photo, blew it up many times this size.
For the most part. I'm seeing light stress related issues. Dried out crispy, blistered looking leaves rather than nitrogen toxicity.

What size pots are your plants in?
What light are you using? How far from the light to the plant tops and light power setting?
As you flipped them it's to late to do much now. Re Vegging will not do anybody any good.
Google indoor Organic cannabis. There are many pretty good web pages devoted to the subject.
Spend 90 days studying and find yourself a simple product to use.

You can expect great results with ether of these products.

Gaia Green.



Dr Earth

 

[botanicalbishop]

They look heavy inor nitrogen. You should be between 400-500 ppfd at this stage, if you turn the light up it should allow them to use the excess nitrogen quicker.

What made you think it was a nitrogen deficiency? Do you have pics what they looked like then?

Unfortunately I didn't grab a pic then. At that time the older leaves were showing yellow in between the veins. They were getting progressively lighter from the outer leaf margins in and had some serious purple/red stems.

Although I understand the latter can be a sign of phosphorus def and some strains are just red or purplish to begin with.

I probably did get over zealous with the kelp and alfalfa. Having not done this for nearly a decade I knew I was going to fumble. Especially with a new environment and different process.

I turned down the lights because I thought they were showing heat stress, Ill turn them up 400-500 and see how they do.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate everyone's input

 

[botanicalbishop]

I agree with stokes nitrogen tox, might be something else going on too but that may be an after effect of the nitrogen, you already flipped so might be best to ride the course, back off on nitrogen and let her eat it up in stretch hopefully she can grow outta it, I also don’t PH but 7.8 out the well is pretty far outta range, not sure what effect that’s have on soil conditioning, have you had any analysis done of the water? Probably full of good minerals for organic runs but you’d wanna know if something else is off in there

My tap Ph is 7.3 my soil average is around 7 without PH’ing anything I just have a meter in my soil to monitor it to see any major swings just a cheapo one from the garden store

I haven't had a water test done, other than when we bought the house back in 13' but I believe they just checked for nitrates and bacteria then.

I'm honestly not sure where to get it tested without spending a couple hundred dollars. The county we live in just started doing water clinics this year, so I'm going to give them a shout next time they have one.

I use to have a moisture meter and ph combo tester but I never really trusted it. I got a budget ph pen right now and just mixed up a slurry of distilled water and dirt (1:1). After the particles settled roughly 30min later it tested out at 6.5ph.

I've considered using critic acid to lower pH some but wasn't sure how it would affect the soils biology long term. I played around with adding about a 1/4 tsp to a gallon water and it bought the water down to 6.8ph with a ppm of 185

 

[botanicalbishop]

I would like to see some better pictures. I downloaded a copy of the photo, blew it up many times this size.
For the most part. I'm seeing light stress related issues. Dried out crispy, blistered looking leaves rather than nitrogen toxicity.

What size pots are your plants in?
What light are you using? How far from the light to the plant tops and light power setting?
As you flipped them it's to late to do much now. Re Vegging will not do anybody any good.
Google indoor Organic cannabis. There are many pretty good web pages devoted to the subject.
Spend 90 days studying and find yourself a simple product to use.

You can expect great results with ether of these products.

Gaia Green.



Dr Earth

I know my post was lengthy but I thought I put that I was using a 3 gallon air pot for the middle plant and two 5 gallon air pots for the other two.

I definitely concur that they look stressed from the lights and that's why I ended up raising them and also lowered the ppfd despite being so late in veg. Its my first run with these LEDs and I've heard they can be finicky sometimes. I'm running Two mars fc1500s in a 2x4.

I've done nothing but read the last six months, anytime I have a spare moment I'm on here or searching other forums. Even busted out my old Marijuana Horticulture by Jorge Cervantes a few times just to give me a refresher. Yes it's probably dated but I prefer a book as it's easier on my eyes.

Not really a fan of using any one product, as most of the big brands are snake oil or overpriced at least in my opinion.

Honestly I was really trying to do this with what available resources I already had at my disposal. Been working the hot compost pile every couple days and started a worm bin this spring aswell.

I may end up having to go back to a proven system but my other non-cannabis plants have been looking great since I started doing AACTs and other supplemental brews as needed.

I added a few more photos from the other day. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate everyone's feedback and expertise over here.

Let me know if there's anything else I can add or forgot to mention. I just ordered a USB microscope so I can start uploading those here when I finally get it.

 

[botanicalbishop]

What the fuck are you even talking about?


Show me the excess nitrogen. I see dark green plants, indicating nitrogen is being metabolized into plant metabolites.

Do you internet retards think nitrogen is green?? Please explain why nothing these forums say ever makes a God damned bit of sense.

Increasing light will make the P B Zn Fe deficiency worse. No fucking clue why youre talking about nitrogen. Not a God damned clue in the world where you idiots get your bullshit.

Hey, Bone I get the frustration but everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Ask a question and your going to get a different answer from every person.

I get the dark green and clawing might look like a nitrogen toxic. I do have concerns about increasing the light anymore as they are already stressed. We'll see how the next couple of days go.

It's highly likely there could be a few deficiencys or lock outs here as the mix is pretty hot.

I have a feeling I should of let it sit longer and gone easier on the teas. Also believe I'm getting a lockout from the calcium in my water, which can bind to the phosphate in an unusable form.

The plan is to get RO or rain water if I can't get my well water tested soon. It's the only unknown at the moment and I got a feeling it's one of the culprits.

 

[HerbalEdu]

the way new growth is affected, look a lot like it could be some kind of virus (may be beet curly top virus). Could also be a genetic chimera.

 

[Sunin]

I agree- looks virusy
Why to put plant in this shape into flower is beyond me

 

[botanicalbishop]

the way new growth is affected, look a lot like it could be some kind of virus (may be beet curly top virus). Could also be a genetic chimera.

I guess Im a little skeptical about it being a virus or at least beet top as I thought that's only spread from a specific type of grass hopper.

Maybe I'll throw some aspirin in the next watering and see how they respond. If its a immune reaction I should see a improvement or least I would think.

As far as the genetics go, they started off really healthy and these seeds are from a reputable source.

I know Zittles is a clone only strain but the master kush should be pretty stable. As it has skunk#1 in it which is an IBL if I recall correctly.

I did take a few clones of each plant a couple of weeks ago. I'll be curious if those still show any of the symptoms once they get going since they are in coco at the moment.

 

[Farmermarc]

Hey everyone, this isn't my first grow but it is my first run with 100% organics in my new house. Im at my wits end here honestly, plants are showing lots of stress on new growth (twisting/canoeing) and I'm chasing my tail now.

Not sure where to start but the girls are a little over 2 months in veg and were started from seed. Used Coots mix/recipe, and have been using ACTs every other week or so.

I know the general consensus is one shouldn't have to ph organics but my water (well) is on the high side around 7.8ph with a 200-220ppm. I wondering if this is affecting things? Or am I just over watering or is something else going on here?

Everything was going fairly good until I gave them a yarrow/nettle tea about a month back. They were showing a N deficiency or so I thought at the time.

I also thought it might be mites at one point but I havent been able to find any with my cheap microscope. I kind of ruled this out as the plant in middle isn't showing the same signs as the other 2 or isn't nearly as bad. That one is also in a smaller (3g) air pot, the other 2 are in 5 gallon if that means anything. Lights (fc1500) are sitting at 32inch with ppfd around 250.

Appreciate any input and advise, I've tried searching around here and am just getting more confused honestly. Trying not to freak out or change too much at once either.

I did flip a few days ago because I'm running out of room and tired of pruning while trying to figure this out. I might have to flip back or start over with hydro or salt based chemicals but I would rather not. I thought organics was suppose to be easier lol or am I just over thinking things?

I can get more pictures tomorrow if need be.

Organic go with just Roots Organic terp teas throughout the whole grow. Get only grow and bloom (green and red bag) and fish shit. First 14 days just water, transplant and give it a teaspoon of grow per plant and keep it at that till late veg and bump it to a tablespoon, when ready to flower flip them lights and do a 1:1 ratio of grow and bloom so now 1 tablespoon grow, 1 tablespoon bloom. Next feeding do a 75/25 mix of bloom/grow cause you’ll need less grow. Use organic calmag for minor deficiencies if you get any for N, and for the rest of flower table spoon per plant of bloom. I run fish sh*t with it which is easier than cO2 and if you are organic like me then you’ll love the product just add to your brew at the last hour. You’ll need a pump and air stones to brew! It just looks like not enough defoliation and maybe some over watering. I water once a week and call it terp Tuesday. Hopes this helps for future grows!

 

[Justlovetogrow]

Even hlvd virus? Thrips cause weird twisted leaves but leave like tiny white spots behind as do mites dunno man but hope u get on top of it

 

[HerbalEdu]

I guess Im a little skeptical about it being a virus

not to fear you but:

Virus-Induced Diseases in Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) Plants:

More than 100 microorganisms (fungi, bacteria, virus, etc.) can cause disease in cannabis. In many studies conducted; hemp streak virus (HSV), hemp mosaic virus (HMV), alfalfa mosaic virus (AMV), cucumber mosaic virus (CMV) and arabis mosaic virus (ArMV) have been reported to cause diseases in hemp varieties. Also, tobacco mosaic virus (TMV), tobacco ringspot virus (TRSV), tobacco streak virus (TSV), tomato ringspot virus (TomRSV), eunoymous ringspot virus (ERSV), elm mosaic virus (EMV), and foxtail mosaic virus (FMV) are isolated from hemp plants. In recent years, studies on cannabis viruses have reported that beet curly top virus (BCTV) and lettuce chlorosis virus (LCV) infect cannabis plants.

you could also have transmitted a virus with your hands or cutting tools etc ...

 

[botanicalbishop]

I agree- looks virusy
Why to put plant in this shape into flower is beyond me

I agree- looks virusy
Why to put plant in this shape into flower is beyond me

Because I got nothing to lose or gain at this point, was hoping they would improve. If I have to start fresh then so be it but I don't think all hope is lost yet. Worst case I'll just toss em outside.

You really think this is a virus? Any way to easily test it without sending it to a lab? I have access to few high powered microscopes if need be.

I did give them a strong dose of alfalfa and yarrow awhile back. From what I gather you can get some freakish growth from overdoing teas..

The middle plant in the smaller pot has recovered tremendously since I've stopped feeding a few weeks ago. It's this reasoning that I thought the other two might bounce back once they deal with the excess.

 

[Farmermarc]

It’s most definitely root rot. They way they curling or wind burn possibly? Just remember always be patient and address problems at first sight so you can correct them quickly. I haven’t had this happen but my first time I got all the buds to flower but I was watering too much and mold was forming on the inside to out and they got trashed, keep your head up it’s a passion. It took Thomas Edison 1,000 failed experiments before he got one which was the light bulb. Failures teach you what not to do next time. That’s why always starting growing you shouldn’t be spending too much on your first seeds either, cause this could also be genetics but that’s rare

 

[Farmermarc]

I know my post was lengthy but I thought I put that I was using a 3 gallon air pot for the middle plant and two 5 gallon air pots for the other two.

I definitely concur that they look stressed from the lights and that's why I ended up raising them and also lowered the ppfd despite being so late in veg. Its my first run with these LEDs and I've heard they can be finicky sometimes. I'm running Two mars fc1500s in a 2x4.

I've done nothing but read the last six months, anytime I have a spare moment I'm on here or searching other forums. Even busted out my old Marijuana Horticulture by Jorge Cervantes a few times just to give me a refresher. Yes it's probably dated but I prefer a book as it's easier on my eyes.

Not really a fan of using any one product, as most of the big brands are snake oil or overpriced at least in my opinion.

Honestly I was really trying to do this with what available resources I already had at my disposal. Been working the hot compost pile every couple days and started a worm bin this spring aswell.

I may end up having to go back to a proven system but my other non-cannabis plants have been looking great since I started doing AACTs and other supplemental brews as needed.

I added a few more photos from the other day. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate everyone's feedback and expertise over here.

Let me know if there's anything else I can add or forgot to mention. I just ordered a USB microscope so I can start uploading those here when I finally get it.

Also low on phosphorus the leaves are a dark green purple, also turn the lights up more if you can!

 

[botanicalbishop]

Even hlvd virus? Thrips cause weird twisted leaves but leave like tiny white spots behind as do mites dunno man but hope u get on top of it

I'm not familiar with all the viruses and pathogens, there's allot out there. It would definitely be a first for me but anything is possible.

I hope it's not thrips or mites, I've been applying IMBs weekly. Also been using the scope but haven't seen much activity or evidence. I'll throw up some micros when I get my camera.

Appreciate it, man I hope I can figure this out too. I hate not knowing what it is.

 

[HerbalEdu]

I've been applying IMBs weekly.

imb ?

and thrips not for sure ... and if it was russet mites we would see them at this stage of decay.

 

[Sunin]

You really think this is a virus?

It does look like it from here

From what I gather you can get some freakish growth from overdoing teas..

It might be overdrive on something. but from feed? naah
how about whatever you applied to control pests? what was it?