Sugar leaves vs buds for BHO/GLASS?

juggernaut · Jul 13, 2013

The person I give my sugar leaves and bud to, turns it into BHO/Glass . The first time i gave him buds and he produced some very nice shatter/glass. The next time I gave him all sugar leaves and I ended up getting bho (a thick oil).
When I asked him he said he can't produce glass using leaves only buds?
Is this true.
Just looks like he didn't evaporate the alcohol (or what he's using) enough.
Any thoughts?
I'm thinking he is just taking a bigger cut?

Skunkmasterflex · Jul 14, 2013

You can get glass/shatter from both sugar leaves or buds. Iv achieved glass with both personally. When it comes to blasting bho to make shatter if you use a zip of flowers a good return would be around 25%. ( so right around 7 grams of glass/shatter per 28 grams of buds). Sugar leaf is a bit harder to give ya a good estimate as it really depends on how sugar coated the trim is. It wont be as much as flowers though for sure. You can def tell the difference between oio made from trim and oil made from buds. Oil made from buds will always smell and taste better.....and iv noticed it to be stronger. If purged right and done right you can still get some wicked good oils from trim still.

Skunkmasterflex · Jul 14, 2013

Also just to add.....iv heard people say some strains they were not abkle to get I to glass/shatter from. Iv heard people say they coukdnt get girl scout cookies to turn to shatter but im pretty sure iv blasted girl scout cookie buds and did get shatter

Ohiofarmer · Jul 14, 2013

As far as i know you can get shatter from any species of bud no two ways about it. producing good shatter is really about getting the method down pat and not over-de-carboxylating it, or rather to de-carboxylate it fully but keep the temperatures low. The best shatter i've produced was using strickly left over dry sift and left over bubble.hope this helps......take it easy

germinator · Jul 14, 2013

juggernaut said:
The person I give my sugar leaves and bud to, turns it into BHO/Glass . The first time i gave him buds and he produced some very nice shatter/glass. The next time I gave him all sugar leaves and I ended up getting bho (a thick oil).
When I asked him he said he can't produce glass using leaves only buds?
Is this true.
Just looks like he didn't evaporate the alcohol (or what he's using) enough.
Any thoughts?
I'm thinking he is just taking a bigger cut?

My thought is you have to be present and observe his technique, or youll never know.

Graywolf · Jul 14, 2013

Shatter is carboxylic acid. All cannabinoids start in that form regardless of where on the plant they occur and when decarboxylated become softer and more oily.

Material will decarboxylate naturally as it ages, so older material is less likely to be stiff than fresher material.

The trichomes on the fan leaves and stems tend to be more mature than the ones in the flowers and more likely to be decarboxylated.

A soft extraction usually means that the extraction is retaining solvent, or that it is at least partially decarboxlated.

If you gave him high quality young trim, there is no good reason that I know of that he can't keep it in carboxylic acid shatter form.

The key to most of the qualities that we seek, is the starting material. We can screw it up and make the end product worse, but we can't make it better.

Dynamite · Jul 14, 2013

Graywolf said:
Shatter is carboxylic acid. All cannabinoids start in that form regardless of where on the plant they occur and when decarboxylated become softer and more oily.

Material will decarboxylate naturally as it ages, so older material is less likely to be stiff than fresher material.

The trichomes on the fan leaves and stems tend to be more mature than the ones in the flowers and more likely to be decarboxylated.

A soft extraction usually means that the extraction is retaining solvent, or that it is at least partially decarboxlated.

If you gave him high quality young trim, there is no good reason that I know of that he can't keep it in carboxylic acid shatter form.

The key to most of the qualities that we seek, is the starting material. We can screw it up and make the end product worse, but we can't make it better.

I have the exact opposite issue , my leaf makes flawless shatter and nug comes out cloudy , or "wax" .. 4 crops in a row now , same thing everytime ? I let the plants go to a nice finish , I'm after quality nugg more then something for making oil

not a major concern as I just melt it all down by using Graywolf's method of decarbing in a hot oil bath for 20min's @250deg's .. it gets some coconut oil and goes into capsules for my father inlaw , big thanks to Graywolf , he lost 15pounds in 4 days when he ran out of oil , without this oil the chemo would have killed him already (2nd round with the highest dose they'll administer) .. on the oil he eats and sleeps everyday , without the oil both are near impossible for him <<off topic , but something dear to my heart

Dynamite · Jul 14, 2013

a buddy of mine blows into a teflon bag , put that in the freezer , removes the solids and waalaa , shatter from pretty much any material ... or so he says , maybe GW can comment on that method ?

leadsled · Jul 14, 2013

Dynamite said:
a buddy of mine blows into a teflon bag , put that in the freezer , removes the solids and waalaa , shatter from pretty much any material ... or so he says , maybe GW can comment on that method ?

The freezer a.k.a. winterizing will allow you to filter out the waxes so you are left with an absolute. Thin film purge then you got absolute shatter.
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/getting-the-green-and-waxes-out-afterwards/

after 12 hours in freezer, going for 48 hours

waxes that were filtered out

thin film vacuum purge produces absolute amber shatter (from trim)

Hope that helps, healing vibes to you and yours.. and others too.

Dynamite · Jul 14, 2013

By Absolute , how is that different shatter ? is the absolute a "shatter" consistency ? .. how the 2 final products consistency vary from one another is what im curious of

leadsled · Jul 14, 2013

Dynamite said:
By Absolute , how is that different shatter ? is the absolute a "shatter" consistency ? .. how the 2 final products consistency vary is what im curious of

Here is my take, like to hear more from Graywolf as well.. Only my observations nothing solid.

absolute is free of waxes, water soluble plant material.
So cleaner to vaporize and what is left is a higher % of thc.
yes a shatter consistency. spread thin then vacuum purged. If you use too much etoh and do not vac it off, it can then be runny.
stable shatter at room temp

final consistency:
The difference seems to be is whether the waxes are present or not and whether all the moisture was removed. You can get a shatter type product than then waxes up or turns more milky looking vs clear. Sometimes that takes time to happen. Looks clear when you make it, but later turns milky waxy or has streaks in it.

Ever seen that happen? the shatter sat out and got warm.

Maybe the waxes/water soluble materials present are why the different textures and apearance.
extract will "wax up" once the solvents and moisture is removed. Therefore the swiss cheese look after all the moisture is gone with waxes present.
lack of waxes,solvents and moisture is maybe why the absolute stays clear and hard.

Dynamite · Jul 14, 2013

My shatter if it sits for a few weeks always seems to get a little cloudy , never had shatter around the house longer then 3weeks or so tho

here's a few of pic's , my methods are always the same , low temp vac purges after scraped outta the pan , but consistency of the oil varies dramatically based on the strain more then any other factor , Chemdog#4 will not wax up , and cheese will not make "shatter" ~ it's wax when it hits the pan ,other strains I can get to do either or

Dynamite · Jul 14, 2013

this batch here(in the top pic) was wax that even when heated to 150deg in the vac chamber would not melt or change consistency at all !! was a very hot sunny day and the pan sun purged itself very well before I scraped it and put it on parchment paper .. was weird to see something in such a stable state that was wax

2nd pic is leaf vs bud of the same strain .. why did the leaf make shatter and the nuggs wax gak ? maybe the nuggs are not dry enough ?

With all the pic's I'm hoping Juggernaut see's how the strains and other variables like inside and outside temp and humidity , and purge time and temps effect the outcome of the final product too .. not trying to highjack the thread :)

If I were he . I'd want to know exactly what process the person was using to the oil

(edit) I get 8-12% return from most leaf , and 15-25% from buds

Graywolf · Jul 15, 2013

Dynamite said:
a buddy of mine blows into a teflon bag , put that in the freezer , removes the solids and waalaa , shatter from pretty much any material ... or so he says , maybe GW can comment on that method ?

FOAF developed that process and posted the procedure on Forum X, but the process is simple. He collects the oil and butane in a PTFE Teflon bag from http://www.welchfluorocarbon.com/custom-manufacturing/standard-products/teflon-bags/?_kk=df15a62d-cdc7-44c0-989e-4f865bfb3527&_kt=5850100701&gclid=COfHqcXqsbgCFWNxQgod2zkAcw.

He boils away the butane, by setting the bag in warm water, and then freezes the bag to make the resin easy to pop free.

It will still require further processing to get rid of the residual butane, or you can redissolve it in a polar solvent at this point and winterize it to make an absolute.

Graywolf · Jul 15, 2013

Dynamite said:
By Absolute , how is that different shatter ? is the absolute a "shatter" consistency ? .. how the 2 final products consistency vary from one another is what im curious of

Technically an Absolute is an essential oil extracted using a non polar solvent, to make a Concrete, or a Oleoresin, after which it is redissolved in a polar solvent, before dropping the temperature to cause the non polar plant waxes to coagulate and fall out of solution, so that they can be filtered out. The concentrated product, sans waxes, is the Absolute.

An Absolute can be either in carboxylic acid or non polar form, and can be either a hard resin or an oil.

jump · Jul 15, 2013

Graywolf said:
An Absolute can be either in carboxylic acid or non polar form,

Please explain why you counterpose carboxylic acid and a non-polar form? Carboxylic acid is a polar form?
On this basis, I have met the erroneous assertion that the carboxylic acid is insoluble in non-polar solvents and even that they are water soluble.

Dynamite · Jul 15, 2013

Graywolf said:
FOAF developed that process and posted the procedure on Forum X, but the process is simple. He collects the oil and butane in a PTFE Teflon bag from http://www.welchfluorocarbon.com/custom-manufacturing/standard-products/teflon-bags/?_kk=df15a62d-cdc7-44c0-989e-4f865bfb3527&_kt=5850100701&gclid=COfHqcXqsbgCFWNxQgod2zkAcw.

He boils away the butane, by setting the bag in warm water, and then freezes the bag to make the resin easy to pop free.

It will still require further processing to get rid of the residual butane, or you can redissolve it in a polar solvent at this point and winterize it to make an absolute.

Exactly .. But he is not purging it any further after the boiling and freezing process ,then releasing the product to dispensaries around PDX , I told him his product was not as clean as a vac purged oil .. Thank you for the link on the bag , I've been wanting to try the process myself , but where he purchased the bag he was blowing into was a "trade secret" he said , really bothers me when people do that .. so I greatly appreciate the insight

Graywolf said:
Technically an Absolute is an essential oil extracted using a non polar solvent, to make a Concrete, or a Oleoresin, after which it is redissolved in a polar solvent, before dropping the temperature to cause the non polar plant waxes to coagulate and fall out of solution, so that they can be filtered out. The concentrated product, sans waxes, is the Absolute.

An Absolute can be either in carboxylic acid or non polar form, and can be either a hard resin or an oil.

I feel a method to achieve a "hard resin" , or "shatter" , EVERY TIME , without a vac oven seems to be the the holy grail question of making oil :)

Ohiofarmer · Jul 15, 2013

Graywolf said:
Shatter is carboxylic acid. All cannabinoids start in that form regardless of where on the plant they occur and when decarboxylated become softer and more oily.

Material will decarboxylate naturally as it ages, so older material is less likely to be stiff than fresher material.

The trichomes on the fan leaves and stems tend to be more mature than the ones in the flowers and more likely to be decarboxylated.

A soft extraction usually means that the extraction is retaining solvent, or that it is at least partially decarboxlated.

If you gave him high quality young trim, there is no good reason that I know of that he can't keep it in carboxylic acid shatter form.

The key to most of the qualities that we seek, is the starting material. We can screw it up and make the end product worse, but we can't make it better.

the de-carboxylated oils will form shatter as well, however i noticed that it is easier to get it to shatter when it's not

jump · Jul 15, 2013

Ohiofarmer said:
the de-carboxylated oils will form shatter as well,

Decarboxylated never hardens. Partial decarboxylation works as the softener and prevents brittle amber consistency.

jump said:
Please explain why you counterpose carboxylic acid and a non-polar form?

I think it would be correct to oppose the carboxylic vs phenolic or acidic vs neutral.

sanvanalona · Jul 15, 2013

Now I am sure some of you will not agree with this, but I have seen "shatter" simply by blasting cold and not whipping the material. If allowed to dry properly it seems that shatter is inevitable.

Sugar leaves vs buds for BHO/GLASS?

Sugar leaves vs buds for BHO/GLASS?

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Sugar leaves vs buds for BHO/GLASS?

Sugar leaves vs buds for BHO/GLASS?

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