Let me repeat something from the last post, because I think it underlines perhaps the biggest under-recognized power and efficiency drain of the whole lighting enchilada; the light depreciation curve of all HID lights, HPS especially.

You guys have heard the growers talk about bulb replacements; a new set every 2 cycles, or even every one. Why? Because of lumen depreciation, of course- but how much? And just how quickly? I haven't seen a lot of graphs, but if it becomes necessary to change the bulbs every 1000-1500 hours due to light loss, then I would say there's a lot of inefficiency left on the table; just how long do they maintain their rated value, anyway? For replacement to make sense, I am guessing that the bulbs lose 10-15% of their rated PAR. OR MORE. It's that second part that especially concerns me.

You see, lighting is the single most expensive part of most growing operations. It's expensive to buy the gear, distribute the light, upgrade the wiring... and of course, pay the bill every month. The bigger the op, the bigger the bills.

I think that once you consider that standard 1kW HPS bulbs gradually but constantly lose PAR efficiency from the very first moment they're lit- adding up to a loss of some 15% by the time it's retired at the end of 1 or 2 crops, the fact that a Philips/Gavita bulb that does NOT dim more than 1% per 2000 hours of operation- 3 crops- becomes an energy saving efficiency proposition, not just a bulb maintenance issue. Okay, so change the bulbs yearly if you must- but with that kind of performance maintenance, the lumens you gain every day more than outweigh the extra initial expense- and then the lower bulb replacement cost pays for itself!

Nevermind that better lighting consistency from one crop to the next allows you to eliminate that worry from your mind every new run in the quest to dial things in ever better. Yields won't decline, costs are contained.

Running my bulbs at a higher wattage than they were designed for is going to make them last longer?

Didnt Einstein say something about this not being possible? Your the professor, you should know this one.

Edit: Lol I totally misread your post. I see we are talking about the specific bulb, not all bulbs in general.

Oregon Panda said:

Running my bulbs at a higher wattage than they were designed for is going to make them last longer?

Didnt Einstein say something about this not being possible? Your the professor, you should know this one.

Edit: Lol I totally misread your post. I see we are talking about the specific bulb, not all bulbs in general.

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I didn't say that HPS bulbs would last longer, the data I've seen don't say. What I'm saying is that most HPS bulbs are slightly more efficient when they're overdriven. That is, they produce more PAR light than the increase in power alone would account for.

What the Gavita paper also said was that their bulbs will last 10,000 hours 'to 10% bulb failure', meaning that by the time you've pulled 30 8 week crops on average one in ten of your bulbs will have quit! ...while having lost up to 5% of total initial lumens. That's less total lumen loss than the difference between many HPS bulb mfrs' initial lumen output, let alone their depreciation over time!

All I can say is that if these specs are true, then the new stuff is just plain cheaper to run in every way, except initial cost. I priced the bulbs; $170 each. Steep, but not twice what a Horti runs, and considering how well they last replacement cost puts you way ahead. So far ahead, in fact, that the first few years of operation can nearly pay back the entire cost of the unit in bulb replacement savings alone, even if you go with cheapie bulbs. Example:

30 crops of Philips/Gavita operation; 3 bulbs at $170 each, that's $510.
30 crops of standard HPS operation; 30 bulbs at $30 each, that's $900.

Lumen depreciation Gavita; 1% per 2000 hours, average for bulb life; 1%
Lumen depreciation for HPS; 7-10% per crop (670hrs), avg for bulb life; 3-5%

umol efficiency for Gavita; 2.07 umol/watt = 2070 umol@1000w, 2380@1150w
umol efficiency for HPS; 1.71umol/watt = 1710umol@1000w, 1.78x1150w= 2047umol
That's an efficiency improvement of 21%, peeps- not bad. I used Plantmax 1kW HPS data for the 'cheapie' bulb, and its performance is over 95% ofHortis'- and better than most.

And tell me just how much fun you have replacing bulbs all the time, huh? Fun enough to do it ten times as often??

What's at least 5% extra lumens, all the time, worth in extra yield? 5%? Hmmmm...
If you cheat and replace the cheapies every other crop, you'll pay less in bulbs, but your lumen depreciation will be double so now you're leaving 10% of your lumen efficiency on the table... which even without the improved PAR efficiency of the Gavita is still by itself enough to pay for the system many times over.

I know a post is good when I have to read it several times.
Unfortunately I still dont understand.

Gonna have to bring it down a notch to get me to spend my money on new tek.

Okay. Gavita uses Philips double ended 1kW bulbs and:
1. increases efficiency from about 1.75 umol/watt to 2.07- that's over 20% better.
2. bulb life is up to three years, instead of 15 weeks.
3. lumen depreciation is 1% every 2000 hours, instead of 10-15% per 1300. That means a 3 year old Philips bulb (10,000 hours!) is still making 95% of its initial lumen rating...

Or, 'better, cheaper, better'. Simple enough yet? ;)

ttystikk said:

Okay. Gavita uses Philips double ended 1kW bulbs and:
1. increases efficiency from about 1.75 umol/watt to 2.07- that's over 20% better.
2. bulb life is up to three years, instead of 15 weeks.
3. lumen depreciation is 1% every 2000 hours, instead of 10-15% per 1300. That means a 3 year old Philips bulb (10,000 hours!) is still making 95% of its initial lumen rating...

Or, 'better, cheaper, better'. Simple enough yet? ;)

Click to expand...

gavita's are the bomb, if ya got the cash they pay for themselves 5 times over in the first crop, upgrading all my lights to gavita next round, i shud be wearing sunglasses when i go in my tent lol

I should clarify that my Lumateks in particular @ 4.5 amps of 240v are supposed to be like 1080 watts at super lumens setting.

Rereading that chart is going to make me look up plantmax prices now.
Thanks everyone for their input.
We will use this info to grow more weed.
More weed is better than less weed.

Dude those DE lamps are so cool.

Hey who has the cheapest prices for Plantmax 1k HPS lamps?

Oregon Panda said:

I know a post is good when I have to read it several times.
Unfortunately I still dont understand.

Gonna have to bring it down a notch to get me to spend my money on new tek.

Click to expand...

Ah, but grasshopper, maybe shorter post has everything you need to know. Wise gardner post short koan, then generous 'big kids' who do homeworks for many months/years show up to explain in detail. Wise gardener sleeps in on saturday morning and saves much typing..

Alright you guys I am seeing Plantmax 1ks at Bulbstock.com for 28.90 so far. No idea of the shipping cost. Hopefully one of us can find them even cheaper.

That also translates to, Bingo, those guys just said it. Go read all the threads we're in on the subject, and it'll save you time wondering/debating. There's a guy here named whazzup who posts very nice visual aids made on real test-equipment, instead of silly line drawings and marketing-art like his lighting industry competitors all do.

dankworth said:

Alright you guys I am seeing Plantmax 1ks at Bulbstock.com for 28.90 so far. No idea of the shipping cost. Hopefully one of us can find them even cheaper.

Click to expand...

I bought plantmax 600s for $23.xx somewhere online recently.

El Cerebro said:

I bought plantmax 600s for $23.xx somewhere online recently.

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Kick down, fucker!;)

Dank, have you seen the later charts from what ttystikk posted? Where do you think the cost/eff threshold is for the SEs? Are hortis worth it for 1k? Can't remember why now but I wrote them off for my 6s, maybe price vs the others. Solarmax have had difital ignition probs I think? To me the value is prob in ushio, plantmax, digilux, and spectrums between those vary. Haven't found even an spd drawing for plantmax, but have used them with good results last run. There are others contenders missing from that chart, but I'd rather not risk and stick with known (maxlume?, eiko?, new gavita hps? - i know ultrasun had run of bad 600s so steer clear). If whazzup is around, can we check out SPDs for the new SEs?

I am very curious about the cost/benefit ratio for the new Gavita SEs. I would not want to run them only, I am still pretty stuck on doing 1/2 digilux MHs, but they would complement the 1/2 MH spectrum well with their abundance of red. And the PAR values are pretty badass.
I personally will not use Hortis, too much money, artificial price structure, etc.
I should see if I can find Ushios for cheap, they are all extra red about their 1ks if I remember correctly.
I should probably make it a point to spend a bunch of hours getting caught up on Whazzup's posts, I really have let you guys do most of the work on that one.
If the Gavita SEs are a reasonable price, it certainly seems that they would be the best lamp choice for the HPSs in my room.

I don't think he posted reports on them yet, but I'm sure the quality will be good and the product well thought-out or they wouldn't bother (major advantage of going with real ag-lighting company instead of hydro-scam bullshit being sold to us otherwise). We need to ask whazzup for spectrocoloromiter readouts for the bulbs in question, although he might not want to go so far on the competitors stuff.

The DE system obviously provides the best value for horizontal overheads. I think ttystikk attached the spd on page one, so you can see its nothing special and rather in-exciting aside from its main desirable attribute (intensity/efficiency). This lamp needs other spectrums mixed in just as standard hps.

Thank u all for ur comments n replies, it's these type of post that help us all better ourselves.


Thanks everyone for their input.
We will use this info to grow more weed.
More weed is better than less weed.

^^X2 dankworth^^. i don't care how much some1 knows, there's aways room to grow.

ttystikk Thanks for all that info, i know me n at least few others r soaking up game.

Has any1 heard of or used a Interlux bulb? found a add on craigs list (bay area) a hydro shop is advertising em, saying the interlux bulb that is made for digital ballast is better then a horilux when put on super limens i think 159,000 lumens or something along those line give or take. they cost around $30 -$80 depending on "where" u buy em n if it's the super lumens or the reg 140,000 lumens for a magnetic ballast, according to him lots of bay area growers r now using em cuz they are cheaper n just replace em to keep getting the most lumens for fatter yields>

How many of these lamps we're discussing are built by the same oem mfgs and marketed under various brand names? Seems like a few bulb shapes and wire-frame configs common to a lot of companies.

Not much info on interlux, again not even bullshit spd drawings like most have..

I'm not so sure about the Gavita SE model- I think the way to go is the Digi Proline ballast and the GreenPower DE bulb. Someone mentioned that the spectrum is ho-hum HPS conventional. This is true, but the efficiency (2.07 umol/watt, the best out there by a wide margin) with which its gained more than makes up for the difference in price, especially when relative lumen depreciation is factored in. And, there are some interesting alternatives for adding spectrum now appearing on the horizon...

ttystikk said:

I'm not so sure about the Gavita SE model- I think the way to go is the Digi Proline ballast and the GreenPower DE bulb. Someone mentioned that the spectrum is ho-hum HPS conventional. This is true, but the efficiency (2.07 umol/watt, the best out there by a wide margin) with which its gained more than makes up for the difference in price, especially when relative lumen depreciation is factored in. And, there are some interesting alternatives for adding spectrum now appearing on the horizon...

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Damn why you gotta be all mysterious. Now I am in suspense and I hate that shit. Now I have to go get high and eat red meat. What the fuck.
I am really high right now.

do the gavitas run vert?