How are they qualifying? I am only regurgitating info from personal conversations. Ready to learn more.

I was told that synthetic fertilizers will kill beneficial bacteria in the range of 5%v/v, which is so high that if you applied a 5%v/v solution to your plants it would surely kill them.

I was told that the use of synthetic ferts will kill microbes, but it will kill them by starving them of organics.

The people who tell me these things are all PhD's in the field so I just believe them, but like I said I am always willing to learn. Can you send me some links?


Bacteria are the most hardy organism in the world. They live in the salty ocean where hot magma spews from the earth.

There's bennies in the ocean on kelp seaweed Corals etc I believe the correct bennies will be fine as long as they have a food source to keep them happy . molasses ewc etc.

Capulator said:

How are they qualifying? I am only regurgitating info from personal conversations. Ready to learn more.

I was told that synthetic fertilizers will kill beneficial bacteria in the range of 5%v/v, which is so high that if you applied a 5%v/v solution to your plants it would surely kill them.

I was told that the use of synthetic ferts will kill microbes, but it will kill them by starving them of organics.

The people who tell me these things are all PhD's in the field so I just believe them, but like I said I am always willing to learn. Can you send me some links?


Bacteria are the most hardy organism in the world. They live in the salty ocean where hot magma spews from the earth.

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Erg, no, I can't because what I've been reading is in hardcopy (Acres, USA). I'll do some digging through my copies, but it won't be for a few days yet as we're still ramping up for our weekend. I'll try to get some names at least, ok?

Are you saying that *all* bacteria are extremophiles or can switch on extremophile genes/behaviors/phenotypes? I have been laboring under the impression that, like other organisms, hardiness is as much a function of demands placed on them as evolution.

larebowm said:

There's bennies in the ocean on kelp seaweed Corals etc I believe the correct bennies will be fine as long as they have a food source to keep them happy . molasses ewc etc.

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Larebown, the 'bennies' that live in coral are decidedly different than what lives in the soil. Similarly, while often discussing the same genus of critters (Nitrosomonas, for example), we can't simply expect marine Nitrosomonas to perform for us the same way and especially under the same conditions as freshwater Nitrosomonas do. I extrapolate that to soil Nitrosomonas, I'm assuming we're dealing with a different species that has its own requirements. What lives *in* coral is again, entirely different. I can discuss zooxanthellae of small or large polyped corals vs zooxanthellae found in other Cnidarians for quite a while, but it'd be a hell of a digression.

Seamaiden
Every thread that gets started about organic vs synthetic reminds me of questions that I feel have been answered already is there a proper thread that contentrates all this info if so where and if not can't we or you concentrate all this info


Something tells me the answers are already here on the farm somewhere.....

Another great thread thanks OWLFARM

wasnt implying they were the same just referring to salt contents.
throw a fresh water fish in the ocean its dead yes i understand theyre diff.
just saying its a harsher envirement then our rez and ive been using ogbiowar for a while and it does great.so they dont die off to fast or they wouldnt do anything.
after brewing a tea i even place the tea bag directly in my res for about 3 days with no prob.
if the bennies were dead that would turn into a slimy root kiling mess.

Capulator said:

I was told that the use of synthetic ferts will kill microbes, but it will kill them by starving them of organics.

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I expect that's largely true--but I think ultimately this has a lot to do with the ionic strength of that solution you're providing. It has to do with how localized all of the nutrients are. Instead of applying something which, through a series of processes and reactions at or near the root, maintains an optimal or near-optimal balance of the proper ionic species for the plant, you are attempting to apply that same "ideal" concentration throughout the entire soil.

A problem with this is that the bacteria's job is to produce these "nutrients" (for the plant) as waste products. As with any organism, a waste product is a waste product for one reason. It is harmful to the organism. There is no nutritive value in it. As you increase the concentration of waste products you are in effect suppressing the metabolism of the bacteria and you are also, for all intents and purposes, bathing it in a sea of it's own shit.

When you think of it from that nuts and bolts physical perspective it's easy to see why this might not be an ideal environment.

Bacteria are the most hardy organism in the world. They live in the salty ocean where hot magma spews from the earth.

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That is certainly true of bacteria as a whole, but organism to organism they can be quite frail. Microbiological life in soil strikes a very delicate balance in nature, it is not all that difficult to throw off from the ideal. Humans have been doing it for centuries now.

Edited to add a lot:
I mean just go water some table salt into your lillies for a month and then come back and tell me what the soil analysis looks like in terms of what microbiology is there. The before and after would be striking. At the smallest levels of biological machinery a lot of what is being employed for energy is maintaining a charge differential across membranes.

If one side of a membrane has a higher concentration of cations (+ charge) versus the other side's population of anions (- charge), it can pump cations across that membrane to equalize the charge. The pump itself acts as a motor, (a lot like a hydroelectric power plant actually) which can be turned by the pumping action--imparting some chemical energy so that a molecule of ATP or other such energy rich molecule can be made. Furthermore, many proteins are held together by ionic bridges. These are only stable in solutions of proper ionic strength. This is why it is possible to purify some proteins by a process called "salting out".

At the organic scale (bonding between atoms to form molecules), the whole thing is basically about following the charge. So introducing positive and negative charges has an effect on that, especially if they are being preferentially taken up on one side of the equation (plants mostly gobble up cations).

When you amplify that up to the next level of complexity in unicellular life--it's obvious there is going to be an effect.

I should clarify, that analogy is a vast oversimplification. Bacteria are much more crude creatures than to think of their waste as purely their "shit", however there are oxidative stresses that these waste products do put on the organism and that's why they want to get rid of it. The relationship with the plant is symbiotic in this way because it's constantly removing the waste. When that balance is off you end up getting a lot of salty, desiccated, dead bacteria.

Capulator said:

@Tnelz You are better off using unsulphured black strap molasses because it is cheaper and does not have high phosphoric acid levels. I do not know how healthy your microbial force is. What substrate are you in anyway? Azos is just azospirillum.

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Left out voodoo and piranha. I am in coco and promix hp also hempy but wouldn't expect there I a ton of microbes there. As for the black strap is the a major difference between that and the earth juice high brix? It's just molasses for plants. Or is Sugar cane molasses that different. I guess the entire reason behind my question would boil down to am I wasting my time on these products if the benes aren't Eve beneficial. Thanks for the response bro.

@Tnelz voodoo and piranha are over priced bullshit at best. Yes they have good species but concentrations are low and price is way too high.

Seamaiden said:

Jeez! Then I guess Jeff Lowenfells and all these other cats that have been writing about it for years are flat out wrong. Help me/us understand what you're saying better, please. I've spent so much time reading about this stuff, and every time the author, from Hugh Lovell to the TWM folks to... gonna have to go through and find more names to put to this, but every time the author is talking about how chemical salt fertilizers kill microbes and they're not qualifying their statements as you have (with regard to organic matter content).

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Capulator said:

@Tnelz voodoo and piranha are over priced bullshit at best. Yes they have good species but concentrations are low and price is way too high.

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Cap I could've bet a million dollars you'd say that lol. Your the man on benes so I accept that as fact. Also figured as much so that's why I was trying the azos. However I've Def got good results. That's besides the point here though. I plan on using better stuff as soon as a. I know it's worth it and b. Exactly what should I buy. As far as the fungi goes I also have great white and mykos. Have only used the mykos on seeds and seedlings. Works amazing. But not sure of another product that's reputable to introduce the microorganisms. To be clear I realize it's worth it to have the benes but as seeing we r discussing how beneficial they actually are along side of synthetics I'll wait till I know that definitively it's worth the investment. And thanks for the wisdom brother it is immensely appreciated!

Tnelz said:

Cap I could've bet a million dollars you'd say that lol. Your the man on benes so I accept that as fact. Also figured as much so that's why I was trying the azos. However I've Def got good results. That's besides the point here though. I plan on using better stuff as soon as a. I know it's worth it and b. Exactly what should I buy. As far as the fungi goes I also have great white and mykos. Have only used the mykos on seeds and seedlings. Works amazing. But not sure of another product that's reputable to introduce the microorganisms. To be clear I realize it's worth it to have the benes but as seeing we r discussing how beneficial they actually are along side of synthetics I'll wait till I know that definitively it's worth the investment. And thanks for the wisdom brother it is immensely appreciated!

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The root and nute pack will replace every other inoculant on the market... cheaper, more diverse, more concentrated in every way. You don't have to believe me just look at the labels.

Capulator said:

The root and nute pack will replace every other inoculant on the market... cheaper, more diverse, more concentrated in every way. You don't have to believe me just look at the labels.

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Looks like u should expect an order soon as payday rolls around. Gonna give caps benes a shot. Look forward to it. Thanks brother!

last order i placed only too 3 days to recieve and that was during holiday rush.
cant beat it awesome product as well

larebowm said:

last order i placed only too 3 days to recieve and that was during holiday rush.
cant beat it awesome product as well

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""only too 3 days"" lol im to toned to stype

good post

get the best of both worlds and do 50% chems, 50% tea. i prefer 75% chems and 25% tea in my tables. even the biggest pot snobs think that this 25% organic is 100% in odor and taste

you will get bigger yileds and more trichs and whiter buds with chems

med-man

i also would have asked that pretentious depo ownder/operator where they get all their stuff 3rd party certified so you can go test yours, and seen the reaction lol haha

med-man

med man said:

good post

get the best of both worlds and do 50% chems, 50% tea. i prefer 75% chems and 25% tea in my tables. even the biggest pot snobs think that this 25% organic is 100% in odor and taste

you will get bigger yileds and more trichs and whiter buds with chems

med-man

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Sure you already know this but that's exactly the basis that humboldt county's own deep fusion series is based on. Pretty good stuff.

hey tnetz

med-man brand has had its own nute line for quite some time now based on this 25% model. most award winning nute line in the market available, and also the most cannabis specific :-)

med-man

med man said:

hey tnetz

med-man brand has had its own nute line for quite some time now based on this 25% model. most award winning nute line in the market available, and also the most cannabis specific :)

med-man

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Interested as hell send me a link if u have one and I'll look into it ASAP!

That's pretty interesting med man. So you're running 75 percent synthetics and then brewing tea and using that straight for the other 25 percent?