Ecompost said:

unlikely mate, since this is out of sequence with a plants exudate release which would not process chitin carbohydrates beyond about day 21 bloom

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Shit you're right, we discussed it in that frass thread a month back, ha! I'll have to try the coconut water trick, think it'll do well if I add it at the 15ml/l rate in a tea with some ewc, kelp, and humic?

Savage Henry said:

Shit you're right, we discussed it in that frass thread a month back, ha! I'll have to try the coconut water trick, think it'll do well if I add it at the 15ml/l rate in a tea with some ewc, kelp, and humic?

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I tend to swerve kelp in bloom buddy, it has a few too many things that i know upset my plants in bloom, eg premature pistols and what not,.We had a discussion here sometime ago and other growers also verified this impact of kelp in bloom, i will try to find it but it was a long time ago. No reason why it wouldnt work with a humate add or ewc. I find my liquid inputs for ACT are based on a total vol input(s) of 0.50% so I would need 5gallons is it to use 15ml in a tea, and I would use less if i added a liquid humate since the two things would amount to 0.50% total;, how I split that would likely be in favor of the humate rather than the coconut water, say 3:1. I can say i have never tried it buddy but its worth a shot.
If i added in EWC or a combined dry input, i tend to find 2.5% max is sufficient by vol

I cant say if it will be a winner mate since I havent tried in teas, but direct fed at 15ml/L does work well no question. I also use a mix of sea water at a mix of 1:30 sea water to fresh, this is an awesome ripening agent and comes free to those whom live near a clean bathing spot.

UgrewWHAT said:

I'm enjoying this. Great education.

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good on you mate, I am very happy to have engaged you. I bet there are teachers in schools crying for their students to say something like that :-)

Ecompost said:

good on you mate, I am very happy to have engaged you. I bet there are teachers in schools crying for their students to say something like that :)

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Oaksterdam University in Oakland, CA, some 9 miles from me doesn't offer what I'm finding in this thread and especially not what's coming from you. You've got it going on!

Glad to be here even after getting my ass chewed. Lol!

UgrewWHAT said:

Oaksterdam University in Oakland, CA, some 9 miles from me doesn't offer what I'm finding in this thread and especially not what's coming from you. You've got it going on!

Glad to be here even after getting my ass chewed. Lol!

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we all live and learn buddy, that you stayed here and didnt cut loose says good things about you brother

Hi @Ecompost, great info for a new farmer, I'm really enjoying the reading.
1 question...."Ca in the right ratio with Mg is critical" What would that ratio be? I've seen others mention 5-1, and read 3-1 somewhere else too.

Aaelariadeu said:

Hi @Ecompost, great info for a new farmer, I'm really enjoying the reading.
1 question...."Ca in the right ratio with Mg is critical" What would that ratio be? I've seen others mention 5-1, and read 3-1 somewhere else too.

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Thanks for the feedback, in answer, hold on to your hat.... since it rather depends on your growing medium buddy. Are you in soil and if yes what base??

Here is my gen for that....Soil users should really avoid the marketing of ideal ratios of cal mag in bottles, since it (Cal/Mag) seldom limits plant growth so long as pH is maintained.
If you are growing in soil, I personally dont recommend calcium inputs in order to meet any such suggested ratio.
The calcium to magnesium ratio is merely a statement of the relative proportions of available calcium and magnesium in the soil. It does not give any information about the actual levels of these elements. For example, one soil may have exchangeable calcium and magnesium levels of 250 and 50 lb/a, respectively,while another soil may have 2,500 and 500 lb/a of exchangeable calcium and magnesium. Both have identical Ca:Mg ratios. However, in the first soil mentioned, both nutrients would be marginally low, and in the second soil, they would be present in adequate amounts.
The matter is exchangeable calcium really, when I say ratio I should be more clear.

Ca:Mg ratios can be misleading in other ways. For example, a low Ca:Mg ratio reflects one of two possible situations: (1) a soil with low exchangeable calcium and normal magnesium, or (2) a soil with normal exchangeable calcium and high magnesium. It is impossible to distinguish between these two cases using only a ratio. On the other hand, a high Ca:Mg ratio means there is either (A) too little magnesium relative to calcium, or (B) calcium is excessive relative to magnesium.

The idea that a proper Ca:Mg balance is necessary for good plant growth was conceived by New Jersey researchers in 1901: They recommended a total Ca:Mg ratio of about 5:4.However, soil scientists soon recognized that total element analysis is difficult and not necessarily a good measure of the amount of these nutes available. Measuring the amounts of exchangeable elements is the best way to know what might be available to a plant for example, but this is media dependent largely based around the total amount of clays
For example, the New Jersey study determined that the “ideal alfalfa soil”should have 65% of the cation exchange sites occupied by calcium, 10% by magnesium, 5% by potassium and 20% by hydrogen. However, further research has shown that these percentages can vary considerably without affecting crop yields. For example, the percent of exchangeable sites occupied by calcium
can range from 55 to 75% without yield reduction, as long as magnesium and potassium are present in adequate amounts.

Sorry this isnt more definite but I do hope it helps explain the matter. Based on the ratio you are presenting, I would anticipate a high loam content, fairly silt based soil. Those in more sandy soils need to pay more attention to the K rates and a ratio for CalMag in sandy media would be about 1.5:1. If you are in soil-less, I see no reason 1.5:1 or 1:1 would not work well. Again soil less media requires attention is paid to the ratio relative to K+ and H+ so pH is more critical here. ranges from 6.0 to about 6.4 will work in soil less to maintain exchangeable elements

@Ecompost , "Sorry this isnt more definite" ...Ha! you've certainly explained the matter, and eased some concerns. Thanks

Aaelariadeu said:

@Ecompost , "Sorry this isnt more definite" ...Ha! you've certainly explained the matter, and eased some concerns. Thanks

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no problem buddy. You might look at adding a humic/ fulvic acid based product to any feed program. This will help to keep your Calcium in a plant ready state, it also helps to do the same to Iron, Zinc among other micros.
Because Humic is an Acid, this can be helpful to give us a hand in moving any calcium that is binding and so becoming more plant unavailable.
You can extract your own if you have a compost pile mate, there are plenty of resources on line to show you how to do this, shout if not.

from a study on Fulvic acid and cucumber growth rates

Ive got some Humic acid, 'fraid I bought it ages ago which is a path I'm trying to stay away from now. But from a bit of reading, it sounds as though Fulvic acid is better suited for my feed program as its ideal for foliar feeding, helping the uptake of nutrients.

"Because of the relatively small size of fulvic acid (FA) molecules they can readily enter plant
roots, stems, and leaves. As they enter these plant parts they carry trace minerals from plant
surfaces into plant tissues. Fulvic acids (FAs) are key ingredients of high quality foliar
fertilizers. Foliar spray applications containing fulvic acid (FA) mineral chelates, at specific
plant growth stages, can be used as a primary production technique for maximizing the plants
productive capacity. Once applied to plant foliage fulvic acids (FAs) transport trace minerals
directly to metabolic sites in plant cells. Fulvic acids (FAs) are the most effective carbon
containing chelating compounds known. They are plant compatible, thus non toxic, when
applied at relatively low concentrations."

Aaelariadeu said:

Ive got some Humic acid, 'fraid I bought it ages ago which is a path I'm trying to stay away from now. But from a bit of reading, it sounds as though Fulvic acid is better suited for my feed program as its ideal for foliar feeding, helping the uptake of nutrients.

"Because of the relatively small size of fulvic acid (FA) molecules they can readily enter plant
roots, stems, and leaves. As they enter these plant parts they carry trace minerals from plant
surfaces into plant tissues. Fulvic acids (FAs) are key ingredients of high quality foliar
fertilizers. Foliar spray applications containing fulvic acid (FA) mineral chelates, at specific
plant growth stages, can be used as a primary production technique for maximizing the plants
productive capacity. Once applied to plant foliage fulvic acids (FAs) transport trace minerals
directly to metabolic sites in plant cells. Fulvic acids (FAs) are the most effective carbon
containing chelating compounds known. They are plant compatible, thus non toxic, when
applied at relatively low concentrations."

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Depends on the clay content of your soils mate, and or the type of humic acid and its base, so if its Potassium Humate, then this will have a higher pH value than your existing media might like and this tends to bind to elements at this higher pH range. Effectively what Humic acid does is to Chelate your micros, esp things like Iron and Calcium. Chelate means simply, to bind a mineral to an amino acid so that it can be taken by a plant. Humic acid performs this binding with some mineral elements, and so it does impact the uptake of otherwise non plant assimilate metals etc. In the wild, it is typically secreted by fungus to assist a biome of mineralising bacteria to bind said metals etc after these have been decayed from matter such as lignin. Fungus likely holds some elements, eg Phosphates, but kicks away other elements in to the rhizosphere, which puts it in reach of colonies of bacteria where it is stored on the bodies, waiting for a plant to tickle its release, or to be consumed by a higher microbe where its again released as an ionic soup or plant ready amino poop :-)
Cannabis is a odd plant mate, since it is an annual and so likes bacteria eg this equating to a more base media by nature of bacterial biology in soils, but like Tomatoes, it forms Mycorrhizal relationships. Cannabis is a relatively early succession plant, coming just after weeds, and brassicas like a grass, only where they, the brassicas, having slightly more lignin than base weeds can enable to germination of fungal spores. We find fungus appearing to decay the remnants and so begins the journey of our soil in to a state that is better suited to growing hardy annuals and eventually perennials and forests. get your fungus and bacteria levels up to 1:1 then try to get the weight of these populations per gram of media to 600micrograms, if you get this, you can kick back buddy, focus on the biology in the soil and they will deal with your plant. 300micrograms per gram of soil is the base, 600 = 150% more growth and yield. Simply this means more, faster access to nutrients and water etc for your plant.

:-)

@Ecompost , Mate, I'm rapt I found this place! Did your folks baptise you in cannabis oil? lol, you got all the info. :)

I make my own soil so there's bugger all clay in it, if any. Homegrown ewc's and compost make up the base, with the usual stuff thrown in.

Ecompost said:

but like Tomatoes, it forms Mycorrhizal relationships.

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A lot of people say that because it has such a short life, in the bigger scheme of things, that these associations don't fully form.??? I'm trying ways around this; living mulch, teas, innoculation products, using soil that has had other plants growing in it, but my girls roots are only in the soil 10 - 12 weeks max. Enuff time?

Aaelariadeu said:

@Ecompost , Mate, I'm rapt I found this place! Did your folks baptise you in cannabis oil? lol, you got all the info. :)

I make my own soil so there's bugger all clay in it, if any. Homegrown ewc's and compost make up the base, with the usual stuff thrown in.



A lot of people say that because it has such a short life, in the bigger scheme of things, that these associations don't fully form.??? I'm trying ways around this; living mulch, teas, innoculation products, using soil that has had other plants growing in it, but my girls roots are only in the soil 10 - 12 weeks max. Enuff time?

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@Moto just put a picture up using my Mycos, his plant is covered in Glomus and so i would beg to differ. This is the thing, MJ is really in the same band as Grass, it is more complex than a cabbage, but less complex than an apple tree, it falls in the middle, and so grows like a cereal crop for example, in that it likes a balanced mass of fungus to bacteria.
I would be inclined to agree poor rated products would struggle, esp lab grown Mycos where there would always be a latent response due to a lack of life experience and necessity to Quorum sense the world its poured in to, however, it is very likely that reusing old media, and planting with a living root, would result in near instant connections and the symbiosis would be full benefit for the entire life cycle. Indeed using Mycos as a seed soak again will benefit the plant by both antagonizing the seed casing and leaping on to the tap root from day dot.
Most people add high levels of water soluble P and so in these conditions, there is no signal from the plant to associate with the Mycos, hence you would never see benefit and this is more likely what is being reported. People need to stop seeing mycos and the lifecycle in terms of a human calenders or a plant life cycles per say. These mini helpers move, replicate, grow and die in matters of hours, but can live for hundreds of years, possibly more, and so i see no benefit in applying 3 months to a microbe the same way three months is to a human bro :-)

Lots can impact fungus and so Glomus interactions. If you add elemental S, then you add fungicide, so it really depends mate, but I can tell you, all my plants are benefiting from Mycos and any one using Better Organix would be getting the same deal. I dont use much P mate, not even indoors, having only 2 products with any, none in the first 4 weeks and none in the last 4 and this being Organic. And in most cases where organic media is used, like that you make, there is little requirement for it. when using good mycos and relevant bacteria. Indoors we may need to add a bit, but outside i never do mate, i have birds, seeds, insects everywhere, old roots, decaying lignin, cellulose etc etc.
I have a system that doesn't require P to be added, and in time i know this will be regulated and people will have to stop using it anyway. I wont care, i already avoid its use in general via Mycos.
organics only works because of microbes, fungus and bacteria alike, but we might argue the most beneficial fungus for cannabis are not Mycos but rather DSE type like Trichoderma and Yeasts etc which may provide a wider range of secondary metabolites fundamental to plant health.

its all still for debate mate, this is why i love it, it changes as we learn more, refine studies and review

added, somewhere there is a paper which discusses seeds and how plants go about collecting microbes which then get sealed in to the seed casing alongside the genetic data of the new plant. It might be that all the relevant Mycos and biomes of all bacteria needed are already bound up in the seeds of all associating plants from day one. Until very recently, it was thought Plants did not actively consume microbes, but then we found Rhizophagy ....... :-)

Thanks mate, appreciate your time and learning lots off ya:party1:

Aaelariadeu said:

Thanks mate, appreciate your time and learning lots off ya:party1:

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my pleasure mate, the only way for us to be sure, is to acquire the skills to do it ourselves. Once this silly system of trying to feed people with chemicals and annuals finally fails, we will all need to be able to grow, or we wont have enough food and that will suck :-) If we can all share what we know and give some momentum to another, then we are winning whatever happens to the boat with holes in.

Did someone Say Mycos? LOL

Root Better roots from initial watering. :) I like my roots hairy and white..LOL


If you have any questions feel free to ask. :)

Moto

@Moto thats some hair!
gunna read thru your BO thread and see whats going on, not that I've seen the product on these shores. and I'm trying to stay away from bottles. But you got some knowledge to learn, for sure

Aaelariadeu said:

@Moto thats some hair!
gunna read thru your BO thread and see whats going on, not that I've seen the product on these shores. and I'm trying to stay away from bottles. But you got some knowledge to learn, for sure

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I understand what you mean. :) Thanks for reading through my thread when you get time and I hope you enjoy the content friend. :D

Best Wishes
Moto

Aaelariadeu said:

@Moto thats some hair!
gunna read thru your BO thread and see whats going on, not that I've seen the product on these shores. and I'm trying to stay away from bottles. But you got some knowledge to learn, for sure

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ships globally, can help you take some of the guess work out of microbe life :-) We have sent some to Oz and NZ before now. We get about :-) We just dont do stores that might struggle to deal with a range that ultimately commits commercial suicide. If you use the products correctly, you will need less and less and less, until such time as you are really only supplying bioN to maintain the colonies of mineralising microbes and soil health, plus adding the extra for those plants that exist outside of the known tolerance of your soils current capacity to supply 42 essential elements on demand.

We have a farm if you want to come see us, but we ship direct to clients in most countries outside of those we could reasonably service with a local store that we can properly support on the ground ourselves from our European base.

I am really not sure if people get me here sometimes? I am not really bothered by wealth in paper money outside of keeping our uncomplicated lives functioning as with everyone, I prefer to know that the current systems on which we stand are crumbling. If we dont recover the land, the legacy for my children will be soils that are Radioactive, Plasticized, Oil and Chemically polluted, laced with Insecticides and Poisons. And I will have to hold my hands up, as someone that knew, but that did fuck all, or I can try as I am here and elsewhere, to recover small groups of people who dont either have the space, time, or the skill to manage soil biota, and so BOX is a solution for the land these folk own and manage, so that they can live free, or more free shall we say, and in learning along the way how little we actually need bottles, eg I always encourage small amounts, so 1L of my Bio Veg can make 2000L of tea, and this concept will be enlightening for many, hopefully these people will share what they know for others to be free also. I mean free from buying 1L bottles every 3 months that support 400L of solution, or adding liquids that literally stripping essential soil carbons such as Synthetic N types
No point waiting for mr big to help us. We must do what we can, all that is within our means today. We must at least try to recover the land we inhabit, or we will fail our children and the planets future. It is that serious for me!
My business, my human soul, could likely not cope if everyone in the world became a BOX client tomorrow and wanted something from us. My intention is to keep to a limit that our carbon grid free farm allows for now. Beyond this I have no desire to be in everyones garage or shed etc but I do have a desire to see people adopting less harmful gardening practices, and i can see you are right at the side of light brother, BOX or not :-)
Keep up the organics over there, you have lots of fossil fuel errors to overcome, those miners dont give two shits what state the land is left in after they have been and rinsed it out.