Underfeeding question

[Konto]

Quick question.

When you underfeed do the bottom leaves start going first or is it like nute burn and just all over?

 

[paulycali]

Usually starts at the bottom and works it's way up to the bigger fan leaves

 

[ttystikk]

The plant conserves scarce nutrients by cannibalizing itself. It takes nutrients from where it needs them less to put them where they're needed most. In this case, that means taking from fan leaves and putting them in the budding sites as a way to help guarantee the plant's ability to make seeds and procreate effectively.

That's why you look at fan leaves for early signs of nutrient deficiency, but at buds and new growth tips for signs of whether the current batch of nutes is doing what it should.

As a corollary to this, remember you're trying to starve the plant of excess nutrients when you flush at the end of the bloom cycle. This helps the plant finish ripening and takes the harsh taste out. It also causes the plant to first yellow and then drop its unnecessary leaves. Consider this yellowing and color change a sign that you're getting the flush right!

 

[homebrew420]

Both underfeeding and infrequent watering can cause this as well.
As an add on to what Tty posted, this flush is only a must if you have overfed with phosphorous during the late flowering stage.

 

[montanamike1]

Generally, underfeeding during veg is expressed as a Nitrogen deficency, i.e. yellowing of fan leaves, while underfeeding during flower is generally Phosphorous and Potassium Deficencies, i.e. yellowing of leaf margins and necrosis on fan leaves. Magnesium and Calcium deficiencies can occur at all points in the life cycle, i.e upward curling of leaves and disfigured new growth.

I recommend http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54233 for more information.

 

[woodsmaneh]

I don't flush, yes lots of people do it, should you do it, well that depends so here is some help

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

The claim only ‘chemical’ fertilised plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic fertilised plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.


Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.



Trans-location:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the trans-location process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans located through the phloem. Immobile elements can’t be trans located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root-zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Trans-location is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins; most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu

Summary:

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or over fertilization and improper drying/curing.

:)

 

[Ohiofarmer]

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

Just wanted to throw in some stuff here; ^^These 2 methods are for the transport of ATP and long chain sugars within the plant cells. These are not mechanisms by which a plant uptakes nutrients through it's root zone. Nutrients are soaked up in the root zone via osmosis. active transport in roots in order to uptake nutrients doesn't make sense by the fact that the plant.....im not even goin into it but thats just silly. other then that some real good info here!!...take it easy

 

[Ohiofarmer]

Quick question.

When you underfeed do the bottom leaves start going first or is it like nute burn and just all over?

If plants are being underfed you will first see it in the new growth of the plant. the new growth will be a yellowish colour in comparision to old growth; after week 2 -3 of bud, strain dependent, you will see it in lower fan leaves as stated by pauly......hope this helps....take it easy

 

[woodsmaneh]

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

Just wanted to throw in some stuff here; ^^These 2 methods are for the transport of ATP and long chain sugars within the plant cells. These are not mechanisms by which a plant uptakes nutrients through it's root zone. Nutrients are soaked up in the root zone via osmosis. active transport in roots in order to uptake nutrients doesn't make sense by the fact that the plant.....im not even goin into it but thats just silly. other then that some real good info here!!...take it easy

Nutrient uptake depends largely on water flow from the substrate to the roots and then up to the shoots. Interestingly, of the total water absorbed by the plant, only 5% is utilized in biochemical processes; the rest is loss via transpiration—the loss of water through the leaves due to a concentration gradient between air surrounding the leaf and the leaf itself. While transpiration may be viewed unfavorably, it is responsible for cooling the plants (absorbing solar energy via photosynthesis produces heat) and, most importantly, moving water and nutrients to the leaves where they are needed. Transpiration also creates water demand in plants. As the leaves lose water, transpiration creates a suction or pull that brings water and nutrients up through the xylem—imagine this process as a person sipping from a straw.
Another concept, osmosis, is the net movement of water driven by solute concentrations across a membrane that is semi-permeable and selective. If the solute concentration is higher on one side of the membrane, water will move to create an equilibrium between intracellular (inside a cell) and extracellular (outside the cell) solute concentrations. This movement of water creates a pressure either inward or outward. For example, think of a balloon filled with solute (NaCl). Next, imagine that balloon is surrounded by pure water. Since the concentration of salt inside the balloon is high, water will move into the balloon and place pressure that will inflate the balloon. Without outward rectification, the balloon would pop; thus, salts must be transferred out to reduce this water (osmotic) pressure.
I'm not calling your answer silly but sometimes there are people who have a difference of opinion so school us bro, we don't want bad info out there do we. What would complete the above ^^^^ science marches on with or without us.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

I'm not sure if this^ is a question or a statement, but everything you said is good info. i'm simply stating that active transport and passive transport are mechanisms of cells not of roots, and have little to do with nutrient uptake and more to do with atp movement. I wasn't tryn to bust your balls man was just commenting so somone with little knowledge that reads this doesn't confuse the mechanisms of plants. Also while growing cannabis is about 60% cellulose and after being dried drops to about 45% net weight in cellulose. anyways take it easy