Watering till runoff - fabric pots

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Eclipted said:
yeah I don’t let them get like completely dry the rootball will still be holding a little moisture when I look at the plants the smaller leaves closest to my base stem will sag a little bit, not necessarily like my big fan leaves or anything like that. It’s kind of like I look for the very first sign of droop then water her up, my only thought process behind that was it’s allowing the roots to dry out hopefully avoiding gnats/root rot. But whatever harp says pay attention this dude is a plant guru he can get you right

Thank you but I am probably an "intermediate". There are many things I'm learning and still need to learn. One thing I'm pretty good at is taking notes, making lists, I do follow-up research/reading.....

I hear you about the fungus gnats. Those bottom leaves that droop a bit? If they're not getting any light, and are near or even on your soil......if they're old and not helping, and they probably aren't......trim them. Open up that bottom space to improve air flow, help you water, you can occasionally hit it with a very quick shot of bug spray without it hitting leaves, and the plants can put their energy above where it will be more productive.

Ponky · Jun 27, 2023

Harpua88 said:
I just don't agree with that one. Maybe if the 5gallons was all sponge......but that's going to be overwatered with runoff. I have 11gallon pots and anything more than 5 quarts is pushing it. That's more tyan enough to thoroughly soak the soil, and if it isn't, I've probably let the soil (and roots) dry out too much.

Over watering is the act of watering too frequently. The quantity of water isn't a cause. And you should water until there is run off. That's how you rinse out the salts. Vaccum the rest. Or let it dry off. Don't fear the run off. You need it.

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

i water to run off no run off = salt build up overwatering is caused by too much water too frequently not too much at 1 time if the pot is draining overwatering wont be a issue.

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Ponky said:
Over watering is the act of watering too frequently. The quantity of water isn't a cause. And you should water until there is run off. That's how you rinse out the salts. Vaccum the rest. Or let it dry off. Don't fear the run off. You need it.

Is that what it is...? ;)

We disagree

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Itscheese94 said:
i water to run off no run off = salt build up overwatering is caused by too much water too frequently not too much at 1 time if the pot is draining overwatering wont be a issue.

Not if you use large pots, with rich soil, amendments like worm castings, blood meal......if you transplant into large pots halfway through veg you're not depleting your soil......if you top dress with more rich amendments during veg.....then you won't need to add the kind of stuff that leads to salts buildup. I'm 30 days into flowering and all I've added is a little bit of epsom salts, twice, a little bit of gypsum and bone meal......once, and a little bit of bloom nutes, once. I've added a little bit of elemental sulfur just to keep the Ph a smidge below 6.5.......no runoff, no buildup, no oversoaking the pots.

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

every1 has there own watering technique. what works for me might not work for u sort of speek soon ill be trying a bottom water vs top water with identical plants

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

Harpua88 said:
Not if you use large pots, with rich soil, amendments like worm castings, blood meal......if you transplant into large pots halfway through veg you're not depleting your soil......if you top dress with more rich amendments during veg.....then you won't need to add the kind of stuff that leads to salts buildup. I'm 30 days into flowering and all I've added is a little bit of epsom salts, twice, a little bit of gypsum and bone meal......once, and a little bit of bloom nutes, once. I've added a little bit of elemental sulfur just to keep the Ph a smidge below 6.5.......no runoff, no buildup, no oversoaking the pots.

i dont use large pots harpua because my soil i use is time released. it releases too much nutrient in the medium if pot size is too large

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

In large pots, you have less chance of buildup because the roots have access to more space. For instance, if you have build up at a certain part of the root zone, so it can just move more nutrients from another part because its not root bound at the root zone. Also, when watering in large pots, it's correct to not water too much at once because there's no runoff, so the plants only take in what they need, and a large watering will release too much nutrient in the medium.

memnoch · Jun 27, 2023

I do not do it simple because I do not have drainage to do so. But I cannot say it has negatively affected my grow. They get plenty of water that goes to the bottom of the pot. Just not running through it. No big deal in my opinion.

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Ponky said:
Over watering is the act of watering too frequently. The quantity of water isn't a cause. And you should water until there is run off. That's how you rinse out the salts. Vaccum the rest. Or let it dry off. Don't fear the run off. You need it.

And by the way.....overwatering isn't only "too frequently". That seems to have become some sort of mantra. You can turn your pots into mud and drown roots in water.......if your plants aren't big enough to suck it up for a couple of days, and/or you recently transplanted into larger pots and the roots haven't worked their way through yet, if it happens to be cool and humid......it can take many days to get that excess water to evaporate out and for the plants to work through it. In the meantime you have days of mud. You'll be making a fungus gnat hotel.... ;)

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Itscheese94 said:
i dont use large pots harpua because my soil i use is time released. it releases too much nutrient in the medium if pot size is too large

You can use any pot size you like. ;)

Ponky · Jun 27, 2023

Harpua88 said:
And by the way.....overwatering isn't only "too frequently". That seems to have become some sort of mantra. You can turn your pots into mud and drown roots in water.......if your plants aren't big enough to suck it up for a couple of days, and/or you recently transplanted into larger pots and the roots haven't worked their way through yet, if it happens to be cool and humid......it can take many days to get that excess water to evaporate out and for the plants to work through it. In the meantime you have days of mud. You'll be making a fungus gnat hotel.... ;)

Over watering is what you call it when you water the plants too soon. And destroy the roots. Because you're a terrible worker who wanted a long weekend and made up their own techniques. You simply can't provide too much water at once. If you have stagnant over flow sitting there and no process to deal with it. You're a terrible grower and shouldn't have made a deal. Either have pumps or drains. If its just a single tent. Who cares. Do whatever. But if you're in charge of a 1000 amps. Better have run off. And better not try and squeak one by with a half watering. Like what a shock. The one time consuming task and the new guy found a secret way to make it faster. And saving food. And that guy costs money. We know. It costs money. The stack is thinner. The truck is on site for fewer and fewer minutes. He doesn't come everyday after awhile. Then its once every 3 days. And it's the difference between decades of growing. And decades of ruined grow relationships. If you have a tent get a mini shop vac. Water until run off.

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

Itscheese94 said:
every1 has there own watering technique. what works for me might not work for u sort of speek soon ill be trying a bottom water vs top water with identical plants

Eledin said:
I have 20 liter pots to, I water with 6 liters more or less, if I get some runoff is very little and because sometimes I use more than 6 liters just in case there's a dry pocket down there, I let the water leak a bit and the pot reabsorbs it in a few minutes. That said I dont have them lifted from the ground because Im still buying stuff little by little, is not terrible but yes ideally if theyre not touching the bottom you wont have more moisture accumulating on the bottom at it will be more uniform, I think its better to do that and lose a bit of nuted water but as also said before, if you go always for runoff youre gonna slowly deplete your soil with whats in there or the ammendments you used, I wouldnt go for runoff every time I water but some people prefeer it that way, I guess for coco is totally fine. I do runoff when I flush the soil, I like to keep it more or less clean for the next run since Ill be adding more ammendments and the plants take the nutes from the leaves anyway. I do 1 flush only, but I use a lot of water, usually 1 week before or a little more so it has time to dry, they dont drink much in the last week.
EDIT: forgot to mention, I always water them in parts, I think this is specially helpful for textile pots. I give 2 liters go to the next, 2 liters and so on til they have their 6 liters, that way the soil absorbs like a papel towel like other user mentioned before, much better than dumping all the water in there and having leaks and dry pockets.

Absolutely slow watering is best. And I think I'll get to 6 liters per pot per watering in another 2, 4 weeks as they continue to get bigger. But 1 liter of water for every 3-4 liters of soil seems like somewhere around the max that soil can comfortably hold. Maybe larger buckets can handle it better just due to volume. I certainly wouldn't water a houseplant in a small 3 liter pot with an entire liter of water...

I'd like to get to the point where I make (and top dress a couple of times and use "teas") such a rich soil.......I like that "living soil" thing......that I don't have to use any or hardly any feeding nutrients at all. It's about maximizing what the plant needs, not a contest to see how much you can feed it. Vegetables are good for us, that doesn't mean we should eat 75 salads and 50 heads of broccoli a week. There's a limit to how many vitamins we can take. With some, like C and Bs, we just end up peeing out what our bodies don't use. Others that aren't water soluble can start getting toxic.

And there really isn't a lot of time for plants to deplete soil (provided there's enough, we certainly don't want to get rootbound). Unfortunately, in almost every case of soil growing, unless we're using huge pots, the roots are going to hit all the pot space, at least near the last month. It may not qualify as "rootbound", but at least "root filled". But as far as time spent in their final pots if you figure 80 days of flowering, but no feeding for around the last 10, and the first 25 days of seedling stage is in 16oz cups, you transplant, veg for maybe another 30? That's 110 days the plants are in their final container. We need a soil that's rich enough to get them through the majority of those 110 days. 100 if we only water the last 10. 50 days or less if the soil is good enough.... If we need to feed them so much additiinal liquid nutrients, "formulas" that we need to make runoff to prevent toxic buildup? I don't know, for me I can't have pots sitting in dirty nutrient runoff water, or set up a network of drainage systems........what if I go away for a few days......

I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm sharing my thoughts and approach and (hopefully) some reasoning. Everyone should do what they want......heck even try things you don't want to......and see for yourself how things go, what you think is best, and what you like.

Harpua88 · Jun 27, 2023

memnoch said:
I do not do it simple because I do not have drainage to do so. But I cannot say it has negatively affected my grow. They get plenty of water that goes to the bottom of the pot. Just not running through it. No big deal in my opinion.

We certainly don't want our pots to sit in trays of water waiting to evaporate, or for us to come drain/dump them.....or use a shop vac??....(not saying you do this). ;). We also don't want to get our floors wet with runoff and make a mess.

It's a good idea to have trays that the pots sit on top of......in case we happen to overwater. I don't want to stare at my now wet floor and go oops! Ha! The answer seems to be these raised saucer trays, like a hollow frisbee. The pot rests on the top part, which has many holes........any drippings runs through the top part, down into the bottom tray part of the saucer, so that the pots are still raised up and have air, not sitting in the runoff water.

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

Harpua88 said:
Absolutely slow watering is best. And I think I'll get to 6 liters per pot per watering in another 2, 4 weeks as they continue to get bigger. But 1 liter of water for every 3-4 liters of soil seems like somewhere around the max that soil can comfortably hold. Maybe larger buckets can handle it better just due to volume. I certainly wouldn't water a houseplant in a small 3 liter pot with an entire liter of water...

I'd like to get to the point where I make (and top dress a couple of times and use "teas") such a rich soil.......I like that "living soil" thing......that I don't have to use any or hardly any feeding nutrients at all. It's about maximizing what the plant needs, not a contest to see how much you can feed it. Vegetables are good for us, that doesn't mean we should eat 75 salads and 50 heads of broccoli a week. There's a limit to how many vitamins we can take. With some, like C and Bs, we just end up peeing out what our bodies don't use. Others that aren't water soluble can start getting toxic.

And there really isn't a lot of time for plants to deplete soil (provided there's enough, we certainly don't want to get rootbound). Unfortunately, in almost every case of soil growing, unless we're using huge pots, the roots are going to hit all the pot space, at least near the last month. It may not qualify as "rootbound", but at least "root filled". But as far as time spent in their final pots if you figure 80 days of flowering, but no feeding for around the last 10, and the first 25 days of seedling stage is in 16oz cups, you transplant, veg for maybe another 30? That's 110 days the plants are in their final container. We need a soil that's rich enough to get them through the majority of those 110 days. 100 if we only water the last 10. 50 days or less if the soil is good enough.... If we need to feed them so much additiinal liquid nutrients, "formulas" that we need to make runoff to prevent toxic buildup? I don't know, for me I can't have pots sitting in dirty nutrient runoff water, or set up a network of drainage systems........what if I go away for a few days......

I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm sharing my thoughts and approach and (hopefully) some reasoning. Everyone should do what they want......heck even try things you don't want to......and see for yourself how things go, what you think is best, and what you like.

watering small amounts at a time requires measuring and adjusting the water as the plant grows. watering too run off no need to measure and adjust accordingly. also when watering little amounts at a time, sometimes nutrients in the root zone build up too the point where the plant cant uptake from high ppm.

MICHGANDER9 · Jun 27, 2023

Dance_Instructor said:
Hey everyone,

I have a question about watering till runoff. Is it important to have runoff? And why it should not be going runoff if I'm giving them more than enough water?

My pots are 20 liters, plants are 5 weeks old, today I topped them, defoliated some leaves, and gave nutrients (Advanced Nutrients Jungle Juice) and B52. Media is Soil + added some coco coir and perlite.

The last time I watered them was a week ago, I was checking pot weight regularly and today I felt it was light and needed watering so I watered them with 6-7 liters, but still didn't get runoff. Should I give 1-2 more liters of water with nutrients to get the runoff, or should it be enough as the 6-7 liter is around 30+% of the total pot size?

Many thanks and I love this forum, got very useful advice.

Edit:
Temp 24-25C
Humidity: 50-60
Light: Mars Hydro TSW2000, 26-28 Inch height, 100% Dim

Get a Blumat moisture meter it reads soil tension 80/120 millibars is where you want to be looks like they are to wet I say that because of how yellow they are and the clawing, between runoff and evaporation especially evaporation. it looks as if they need nitrogen I don't run off at all I keep at about 100 mb to 120 mb soil tension hope this help I run a grassroots fabric 4×8 bed Blumat sells an analog meter as well if you don't like digital. Outside is a little more difficult if it rains Alot where you are then you might need to cover them

Eledin · Jun 27, 2023

I think in the end its just that, what works for everyone. We are using different soils with different water retention and Im using enzymes, chelated aminos and epsom salts so I dont fear salt accumulation but since I dont know what this guy uses I shouldnt have recommended no runoff. In my case the salts get dissolved with the liquids I use so for me there's no need of runoff unless I want to meassure ph and ec of runoff. Also thats for my 5 gallon pots, my 2 gallon pots I always get runoff because its hard not to in small pots but I let it reabsorb it since its little and I use the same liquids for them. Another thing worth nothing is that if youre gonna go for runoff frequently you need to have them lifted from the ground, I think it wasnt mentioned but I did read a lot and my information retention capability is not very high

MICHGANDER9 · Jun 27, 2023

And after all that excessive water you might want to check soil pH

Bilber · Jun 27, 2023

I've gotta pitch in on this subject.....

I am by far a professional grower.....

But.......

I feed till run-off.....

5 gallon buckets......sloooooowly feed till I get at least two solo cups full of run-off.....

Not a flush, but enough to clear the plants feces.....

Yes.......plants have waste also....I try to clear it up.....

That is another reason why I don't " bottom feed " my plants......

I am not trying to step on anyone's toes, but this just seems logical.....it makes enough sense to me....

And for shits and giggles, I've recently installed these......paper plate holders....

Hope this helps....

Itscheese94 · Jun 27, 2023

Right, so I'm going to say I've seen this happen in nature outdoors when a big rain comes, the ground gets washed, which causes the plants to grow like mad. When there's little rain, the plants grow slowly, so if you replicate these big waterings.

Watering till runoff - fabric pots

Watering till runoff - fabric pots

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Watering till runoff - fabric pots

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