Watts/lumens per square foot ?

Crysmatic · Dec 17, 2012

Thanks for showing up Whazzup! Great info. I didn't want to be banned for linking to another forum...I want to save it for insulting someone ;)

I went with the 1000 over the 600 because it's much cheaper per umol. I'll soon have 12 girls under it - small trees, or more correctly bushes. I'll find out first hand how it penetrates bushes. I'll trim most of the undergrowth.

@outwest you need a bigger space to fit two 1000s :D

outwest · Dec 18, 2012

Crysmatic said:
Thanks for showing up Whazzup! Great info. I didn't want to be banned for linking to another forum...I want to save it for insulting someone ;)

I went with the 1000 over the 600 because it's much cheaper per umol. I'll soon have 12 girls under it - small trees, or more correctly bushes. I'll find out first hand how it penetrates bushes. I'll trim most of the undergrowth.

@outwest you need a bigger space to fit two 1000s :D

You are correct. What I have deduced from this discussion is that I need a 5x10 tent with 2 1000s and the LEP in between positioned over 3 3x3 tables. Or 2 4x4s?

outwest

kushsmoker30 · Dec 18, 2012

Crysmatic said:
Thanks for showing up Whazzup! Great info. I didn't want to be banned for linking to another forum...I want to save it for insulting someone ;)

lol

purpleberry · Dec 18, 2012

outwest said:
You are correct. What I have deduced from this discussion is that I need a 5x10 tent with 2 1000s and the LEP in between positioned over 3 3x3 tables. Or 2 4x4s?

outwest

5x10 is different than a open room, You have 4 walls right there to reflect the light. If you use xxxl hoods 2 will cover pretty good, and your yeild will be higher in the tent when you cover the larger canopy.
Yeild per watt Ill put my money on 2k in a 5x10 tent over 3k on 4x10. Ive done both several times.

ttystikk · Dec 19, 2012

Mayhaps I was a bit brash above- my experience with high light loading is exclusively with sealed and ducted hoods, which of course aren't hot ansd aren't too efficient. Gavitas are going to be much hotter and brighter, so I too will be following whazzap's spacing reccomendations. Sometimes, it pays to think it through more than once... or twice...

whazzup · Dec 19, 2012

purpleberry said:
Yeild per watt Ill put my money on 2k in a 5x10 tent over 3k on 4x10. Ive done both several times.

Easily. That 3K is a lot of overkill. Remember though that you can also boost a Pro 1000 15%, so that's 2400 µmol per lamp. That's 600-900 µmol more than what we measured is on the market today in single ended lamps. That's a lot of light.

You will gain yield very fast when you increase light levels from 500-1000 µmol s-1 m-2, that curve is almost linear. After that the increase in yield is no longer linear to the increase in wattage, so less efficient. Above 1500 it is very questionable if you will get any more.

Introducing CO2 would be the next step if you purely want to increase yield per watt.

LexLuthor · Dec 19, 2012

whazzup said:
Easily. That 3K is a lot of overkill. Remember though that you can also boost a Pro 1000 15%, so that's 2400 µmol per lamp. That's 600-900 µmol more than what we measured is on the market today in single ended lamps. That's a lot of light.

You will gain yield very fast when you increase light levels from 500-1000 µmol s-1 m-2, that curve is almost linear. After that the increase in yield is no longer linear to the increase in wattage, so less efficient. Above 1500 it is very questionable if you will get any more.

Introducing CO2 would be the next step if you purely want to increase yield per watt.

Is there a formula to figure out the u-mol of a bulb just by using lumens, watts, Kelvin temp, ect.??

whazzup · Dec 19, 2012

Unfortunately not. It all depends on the spectrum. Lamp manufacturers in Europe have since long switched to specifying it in PPF (specified µmol s-1) when specifying lamps for plant growth. I wish lamp manufacturers in the US would do that too, but they are stuck to lumens. Lumens are for humans, not for plants.

We tested the lamps with an adjustable 1000W electronic ballast, which could be tuned to exactly the correct output power within 2% accurate. To get the output at the tested lamp power multiply wattage by efficacy. Lamps have pre-run to burn in, measurements in calibrated Ulbricht sphere.

El Cerebro · Dec 19, 2012

whazzup said:
Unfortunately not. It all depends on the spectrum. Lamp manufacturers in Europe have since long switched to specifying it in PPF (specified µmol s-1) when specifying lamps for plant growth. I wish lamp manufacturers in the US would do that too, but they are stuck to lumens. Lumens are for humans, not for plants.

We tested the lamps with an adjustable 1000W electronic ballast, which could be tuned to exactly the correct output power within 2% accurate. To get the output at the tested lamp power multiply wattage by efficacy. Lamps have pre-run to burn in, measurements in calibrated Ulbricht sphere.
View attachment 276891

so what's the scoop on the new 1K SE for north america? anyone here using those?

Whaz you got a spectral chart on that one yet? and how about spd for the DE too?

whazzup · Dec 19, 2012

HPS spectrum is pretty boring, you can download it from the philips ecat. Unfortunately the E39 1000W SE lamp we have postponed 3 times already because we were not happy enough with the construction. We don't bring it out until we are completely satisfied with it.

El Cerebro · Dec 19, 2012

whazzup said:
HPS spectrum is pretty boring, you can download it from the philips ecat. Unfortunately the E39 1000W SE lamp we have postponed 3 times already because we were not happy enough with the construction. We don't bring it out until we are completely satisfied with it.

so will the SE be 'enhanced' hps or just similar basic spectrum to the philips?

do you not have an spd from whatever lamp was used in the above ppf chart? was that a prototype or something? obviously 1.93/4 could make it the go-to choice.

purpleberry · Dec 20, 2012

whazzup said:
Easily. That 3K is a lot of overkill. Remember though that you can also boost a Pro 1000 15%, so that's 2400 µmol per lamp. That's 600-900 µmol more than what we measured is on the market today in single ended lamps. That's a lot of light.

You will gain yield very fast when you increase light levels from 500-1000 µmol s-1 m-2, that curve is almost linear. After that the increase in yield is no longer linear to the increase in wattage, so less efficient. Above 1500 it is very questionable if you will get any more.

Introducing CO2 would be the next step if you purely want to increase yield per watt.

whazup, i got ahold of one of your DE set ups and put itin a room with alot magnum xxxl hoods all open bulb, And your DE bulb is brighter, BUT that hood does it no justice The plants under the magnums are alot more uniform over the 4x4 areas and seem to be doing better. Im not giving up on your DE bulb just waiting for sunlight to put the DE magnum hood out.

whazzup · Dec 20, 2012

@elcerebro: That lamp will be available as an enhanceed lamp (for standard 1000W digital ballast) and as a pro-line version (for high frequency 400V ballasts). The output of the lamp indicated is the pro-line version, the enhanced version has about the same output, slightly less (about 1900 compared to 1930 of the Pro). But there are a few lamps on the market that don't perform bad at all as you can see.

There are other double ended lamps coming to the market, but until now they do not perform as good as the Philips. The Ushio does about 1850, slightly better than the HortiLux, but neither of these double ended lamps can not be air cooled: they lose 10-15% of light when you chill them.

@purpleberry:
The reflector is specifically designed for creating overlap and deep penetration of the crop. Bringing light only down doesn't doe the light justice. The sun doesn't stand straight above your plants either.

If you use them in combination you will see that the uniformity is great, You can also counteract the light losses from your walls this way. You can try to create a square field from a lamp that has wide spread (HPS lamps only shine left and right) but that will inevitably create losses. The HR96 has an efficiency of 96% bringing the light down as it does

You will never get uniformity from a single lamp, of any single lamp. You should compare a lot of magnums to a lot of HR96 reflectors, or do the 1-1 comparison. In the end what counts is:

- Amount of light you bring down (efficiency)
- Total uniformity of the installation (for which you always need to combine more fixtures, any fixtures)

Try measuring one lamp in one tent to see the differences. There is a topic on ICmag where they make iso diagrams of different single hoods, this gives you some insight.

LexLuthor · Dec 20, 2012

I'm helping someone set up/build a growroom, his room is about 5' wide and over 10' long, but only about 5'x4' of actual canopy space is available. I was gonna throw down 2 600's on that spot.

If anybody has any suggestions if they think different light(s) would work better please let me know.

d420dool · Dec 20, 2012

kick ass thread tx kid!!! i have a 4x4 tent and have a really big filter(active air 30d16 or suttin) so i hung it up but after reading this thread i want to run my 400 halide with my 600 hps(hortilux/micromole/sunspot6) but i dont have enough room to hang all three things, so my question is if i put the filter in the back corner of the room, up high on top of suttin about 1 foot by 1 foot and out of the way of the reflectors. so basically im sayin would sacrificing a squarefoot of space in the back corner be worth adding 400 watts of halide to the mix, this would bring me to about 62 w/ sq ft at 16 sq ft but if u think about it im takin away a square foot so i f u go by that i would b gettin 66.66 w/sq ft. any ideas or comments or NETHING would b great thanx farm u all r great

outwest · Dec 20, 2012

d420dool said:
kick ass thread tx kid!!! i have a 4x4 tent and have a really big filter(active air 30d16 or suttin) so i hung it up but after reading this thread i want to run my 400 halide with my 600 hps(hortilux/micromole/sunspot6) but i dont have enough room to hang all three things, so my question is if i put the filter in the back corner of the room, up high on top of suttin about 1 foot by 1 foot and out of the way of the reflectors. so basically im sayin would sacrificing a squarefoot of space in the back corner be worth adding 400 watts of halide to the mix, this would bring me to about 62 w/ sq ft at 16 sq ft but if u think about it im takin away a square foot so i f u go by that i would b gettin 66.66 w/sq ft. any ideas or comments or NETHING would b great thanx farm u all r great

Keep your filter way up high. Look that growzilla. Awesome for a 4x4.

outwest

d420dool · Dec 20, 2012

thank u much for the reply outwest. well its going to stay high im puttin it on top of suttin in the corner, should only take up a square foot, so the height of it isnt an issue its the trade off of space to light

Crysmatic · Jan 8, 2013

whazzup said:
- Amount of light you bring down (efficiency)
- Total uniformity of the installation (for which you always need to combine more fixtures, any fixtures)

I just bought my second 1000 DE the other day. I turned them both on, and DAMN they're bright! I need sunglasses. I can't even look at the floor to gage uniformity. fwiw, although my basement room isn't sealed yet, both lights only raise temps by 2-3C, when the furnace isn't running. The first night I had them on (and the furnace was on) it went to 29C - and got me a little worried. I could probably handle 4 lights with just an 8" fan (I'll find out soon).

Imo, lights are best arranged parallel to each other (1.75 m apart), so that one light fills in for the other. They throw so much light sideways, it's best to have it spill over onto the plants, rather than the floor. Do you agree whazzup? I see almost every grower run their lights the wrong way - usually because they're air cooled.

@whazzup I recall reading that the lights should always be started in 1000W mode, THEN turned down. I want to start a bunch of cuttings in 600W mode. Do I have to be there at startup EVERY day to turn it up and back down?! Or can I set it to 600W and forget it?

My big question to you: professional greenhouse growers use sunshine meters to measure radiation sum, which is crucial to their irrigation strategy. How many average W/m^2 (or J/cm^2) does the 1000DE put down? How would I determine radiation sum without a sunshine meter? Do I assume they drink 2.0 ml/J and measure how long it takes them to drink? At least I don't need a climate computer, because it's always sunny in my room :)

LexLuthor · Jan 8, 2013

If 1.75 m is ideal for 1k's, what about 600's, how far apart should they be?? About 1 m??

whazzup · Jan 11, 2013

the problem is that you can not see this separate from the distance to your crop and the number of lights!

Generally what you do in a multi-lamp room is get them in rows in-line. The wide overlap is longer than the narrow part of the reflector, so the spacing between the fixtures in-line should be smaller than the distance between the rows.

Now another problem is that SMALL rooms are seldom the right size for a good uniform lighting, not only because of the measurements but also because of the amount of wall area per surface. When I have some more time I'll post a few light calculations to illustrate.

As for running a 1000W DE lamp at lower wattage: It is recommended that you at least burn-in the lamp for 100 hours in total on 1000W before you dim it to stabilize. A bit longer is even better. After that you can start it up at lower wattage but always remember that efficiency decreases when you dim (see earlier published attachment).

As for greenhouses: Light is added based on DLI (daily light integral). That is defined/measured in micromol per square meter per day in lighting recipes. At a ppfd of 1000 umol s-1 m-2 you will have in a DLI of 1000x3600x12=43 umol/m2 per day!

here is everything you need to know about DLI.

Watts/lumens per square foot ?

Watts/lumens per square foot ?

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