If you take a strain to f10 and still have hermies, your first couple selections were bad. Why does it matter where it comes from at that point, you've obviously failed from the start.

I'm just having a hard time applying the squares to anything useful in my home brew style of pollen throwing. Can you use an example of a strain and how it's useful so my uneducated brain can soak it up? @lino

I know you asked lino, I hope you don't mind me giving an example regardless.

A good example is breeding in auto traits.

If you cross a photoperiod plant with an auto, all the F1 will be photo plants. If you cross two F1, some (roughly 75%) will be photos, the rest autos. If you pick two of those autos, you will have only autos, which will produce only autos every generation.

From that you can derive:

AA is photo
aa is auto

AA caps because photo dominates auto, making auto recessive.

The F1, based on punnet, are all Aa (one side can contribute only A, the other only a). This is why F1 should be extremely uniform, but is not stable for breeding.

Crossing two F1, so Aa with Aa, gives based on punnet results, 25% AA, 50%Aa, and 25%aa plants.

AA is photo, aa, is auto, but Aa is also photo just like all the F1. The A (photo gene) is "complete dominant" over the a (auto gene) so a doesn't get to express itself. So, you get 75% photo, 25% auto.

Breeding a trait true, pure, means crossing homozygous with homozygous, which in this case means crossing an aa plant with another aa plant.

So when you pick two autos in the F2, you get punnet aa x aa which is all aa in every plant, which means auto is bred true.

That's an easy example because the desired trait is recessive. Recessive traits only show when they are homozygous.

Imagine however, having to breed photo "true" from that F1. The only way to do that, is to breed out the 'a' gene, which in turn is done by crossing two AA plants.

In that case you cross the F1 into F2 to recombine the Aa plants into that typical F2 ratio 1:3:1, giving you 25% AA, 50%Aa, and 25%aa plants.

From that you need to pick two AA plants, but how do you distinct AA from Aa plants? If you pick two Aa plants (photoperiod phenotype but not homozygous genotype) you will end up with that same ratio again, again with photo and auto plants. If you pick one AA plant and one Aa plant, you get according to punnet results 50% AA, and 50% Aa. They will be all photoperiod plants, but it will not be bred true, it will not make good breeding stock for a photoperiod F1 as long as that 'a' is in there.

And that's where understanding Mendel's work comes into play, it's what allows you (through test crosses and/or observing inheritance every generation) to select that AA instead of the Aa. That the phenotype-genotype distinction thing I linked to.

If this like a lot to take in, punnet squares are easier than multiplication and division, which we all had to do a few times to before it goes automatically.

Again, there's more to it than Mendel's simple rules of inheritance and doing punnets, but it's it has been the foundation for plant breeding for about a hundred years now. It's indirectly what resulted in the green revolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_plant_breeding

Mendel is great for theory, reality is another matter. Punnete squares are only as accurate as your ability to categorize traits. Unfortunately it's all we got. Initially it's worthless but used by an accurate observer could be used to make roundabout predictions once the researcher is familiar enough with a particular line. Personally I'm breeding more in the style of Mengele than Mendel. Only ze best will make ze final selection.

We try to stay away From AA and Aa cause all our charts blend together ...

breeders best friend next to a guard dog,


how hermies fool us, Dom red could be a hermy or dom or recessive wht could be a hermie and you'll get 100% hermies or no hermies on F1. in other words wht could have been recessive as a hermy that was recessive produces the same results.

If red were a hermy than breeding with a red hermy anytime after this F1 cross would and could be a hermy outbreak. And that is what cannabis seed resellers experience today cause they dont understand that a hermy is not breeding stock. 90% of the new strain have a hermy lurking somewhere in the Punnett Chart.

definitions


How to breed for Pink veins in cannabis


Dialing in the Pink vein breeding


How to create strong OG taste and here is where we drink beer and argue which direction to breed


And now I can guarantee what these seeds will produce and this is all done AFTER we have removed 98% of the pathogens in our embryos thru Punnett breeding and chemicals.

This is how to breed to eliminate hermies from you BREEDING stock as we know many transsexuals produce champs . Just dont want to breed em till they have been genetically and germ clean, thats how I do it...

read @Sativied last post and look at my charts and you can start playing with Punnett... How many times have your read "My strain throws this trait 80% of the time. Punnett chart would show that trait was produced at 75%....

WalterWhiteFire said:

If you take a strain to f10 and still have hermies, your first couple selections were bad. Why does it matter where it comes from at that point, you've obviously failed from the start.

I'm just having a hard time applying the squares to anything useful in my home brew style of pollen throwing. Can you use an example of a strain and how it's useful so my uneducated brain can soak it up? @lino

Click to expand...

@Sativied your last post was stellar and looks like you wrote it, no copy paste crap. Nice explaintion... You get a A+ on your paper...

But I think @zeke has a good point, who the hell has enough time to Punnett Chart 50 plants. Find the champs, breed em and see what happens,,, then A guy could all fancy with chemicals and Punnett maps

This all made for excellent reading, thanks so much for the input, I agree with all that say the Punnett Square is essential, I require more in depth educaton regarding how plants breed, can anyone recommend some literature?

Thanks for your Participation everyone

lino said:

But I think @zeke has a good point, who the hell has enough time to Punnett Chart 50 plants. Find the champs, breed em and see what happens,,, then A guy could all fancy with chemicals and Punnett maps

Click to expand...

Said seeds in the original post ideally should all be champs already. Assuming the original breeder did everything right. In one of Michael Starks books he indicates that some strains will express different genes based on the environment they are grown in and thus adapt genetically to that environment suggesting an outdoor strain grown indoors might express itself totally different than it would outdoors and breed differently than expected. I have also read about changing light cycles actually will change the way the plant expresses itself outwardly.

Aanything

Canalchemist said:

Said seeds in the original post ideally should all be champs already. Assuming the original breeder did everything right. In one of Michael Starks books he indicates that some strains will express different genes based on the environment they are grown in and thus adapt genetically to that environment suggesting an outdoor strain grown indoors might express itself totally different than it would outdoors and breed differently than expected. I have also read about changing light cycles actually will change the way the plant expresses itself outwardly.

Click to expand...

Anything can cause a plant to express differently,nutes,temps,light, or stress,i agree the punnet is important,if I could understand the freaking things,iv been at for a long time,i still can't work these things out,76

Canalchemist said:

Said seeds in the original post ideally should all be champs already. Assuming the original breeder did everything right. In one of Michael Starks books he indicates that some strains will express different genes based on the environment they are grown in and thus adapt genetically to that environment suggesting an outdoor strain grown indoors might express itself totally different than it would outdoors and breed differently than expected. I have also read about changing light cycles actually will change the way the plant expresses itself outwardly.

Click to expand...

Phenotype = Genotype + Environment
light cycle = photo period = short day or long day plants

lino said:

But I think @zeke has a good point, who the hell has enough time to Punnett Chart 50 plants. Find the champs, breed em and see what happens,,, then A guy could all fancy with chemicals and Punnett maps

Click to expand...

What chemicals are breeders using and why?

So if I interpret your graph correctly you prefer a flash of light roughly in the middle of your dark period of what looks to be about 30 mins. Or am I interpreting incorrectly.

In Michael Starks book he mentioned he suspected a mutagen being used on Thai strains as he observed some freakish type phenos appearing in the lineage. Pretty Dangerous experimentation in my opinion. Plants are like little chemical labs, you never know how a mutagen may effect the chemical profiles of the plant and its effects on human consumption.

WalterWhiteFire said:

What chemicals are breeders using and why?

Click to expand...

test tube breeder - what in front of me right now
benzylaminopurine
sodium bicarbonate - pure baking soda
acetic acid - pharm grade vinegar
amino
L-Arginine
L-Asparagine BioReagent
L-Glutamine
Auxins and regulators effect upon
(2,4-Dichlorophenoxy)acetic acid sodium salt monohydrate
1-Naphthaleneacetic acid
2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid
and 5 others I use
Cytokinins
Thiamine hydrochloride
6-(γ,γ-Dimethylallylamino)purine
Adenine hemisulfate salt
Kinetin
and many compound forms of Zeatin
these can be hazardous and even more dangerous stuff that change cell structure like
Colchicine and other inhibitor of microtubule polymerization which blocks chromosome segregation during meiosis which is used to induce polyploidy (tetraploid) in plant cells.
Just name a few chemicals I use.
WHY - I'm trying to develop a mother room kit and seed propagation kit for cannabis. Currently there is nothing I have found effective without a PHD standing by.

But before any of this test tube plant breeding will be effective in a test tube the embryo and explant must be purified and this list of chemicals is even longer. If you look at test tube cannabis seed propagation you'll find an abundance of pathogen problems. Thats from all the closet breeding for 100's of years. The hardest part is getting cannabis pure. Some of my work in Seed Embryo Rescue techniques were used to successfully Re-create extinct animal and plant species. tech to purify an animal or plant embryo are incredibly similar.
WHY - all your work is useless if the test tube grow pathogens

EXPERIMENTS ARE NOT MENT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION!

Canalchemist said:

So if I interpret your graph correctly you prefer a flash of light roughly in the middle of your dark period of what looks to be about 30 mins. Or am I interpreting incorrectly.

Click to expand...

NO, i dont use any light interruption, ZERO! The graph showed that cannabis, a short day plant, will not flower/bud properly with light interruption.

Understood

Thanks for all the info guys! Greatly appreciated. Now, I know for certain I don't need any of this science BS. Heh.

Did you mean science bull shit or Bachelors of Science? Ironically, they both share the same acronym.

Sativied said:

I could not agree less with that advice. And that last statement is just wrong. It's not how most cannabis breeders breed that I can give you. It's however how plants breed, and cannabis is just that, a plant. While not all traits and genes inherit according to 'simple' Mendelian rules throwing it out the window is like a carpenter throwing away his hammer, i.e. an essential tool. Mendel squares is about turning the unknown into known.

Click to expand...

I've never smoked a bowl of theory, does that contaminate
your garden as well?