Fermented Plant Extracts and making your own nutrient line

[A. Muse]

Thanks for the info dextr0. Hadn't seen the subcool recipe before but will take those ideas into consideration. There are some threads about it on here and in other forums.

As for the castings, I don't know if they'd ferment so I guess it's experiment time.

Good find on the tea brew, but am more interested in FPE than AACT due to solubility/availability of nutrients. Shelf life and high concentration is also a plus. The prospect of hiking pack-loads of tea all summer is not appealing whatsoever. Am all about maximum efficiency, and the organic/biodynamic/FPE approach seems to offer low risk (of diseases and stresses), high reward (quantity and quality), and set-it-and-forget-it ease of use (concentrated amendments, active cultural environment). Provided you've done your homework, of course. To borrow a phrase: "The dictionary is the only place where success comes before work."

Found a recipe for psuedo-fermented alfalfa:
No sugar/food is added to the mix so it's less of a fermentation than a anaerobic sludge, especially considering his mention of the smell dictating the finished product. More experimentation necessary, although it would be good to have some actual verification about the triacontanol availability before completely trusting the FPE to provide it. Just re-read the thread after you mentioned the EM-1 and found:

During fermentation EM-1 is able to ferment weeds and extract organic acids, bio-active substances, minerals, and other useful organic compounds from these materials which are able to promote plant growth and repel diseases or insects

Sounds like a close to perfect activator, though the 'useful organic substances' mentioned may or may not include hormones and enzymes present in the source material. I just contacted TeraGanix to get their take on this. Will report my findings back here. And will be getting some EM-1 for all FPE brews. Seems like a small price to pay for a large benefit. A liter will go a long way once activated, especially at 1-2tsp/gal of AEM per brew.

Brewer's tip: Using airlocks in your fermenting vessels will allow gases to escape (no burping required) while stopping unwanted organisms from entering your brew. Also, the use of sterile equipment reduces the risk of infection.

You make a good point about the hay. Pellets are just chopped hay (meal), but typically contain a binding agent (e.g. 1 - 3% of molasses, fat or colloidal clays) that may interfere with complete fermentation. Considering this I might go one step further and use green alfalfa due to the higher concentration of proteins, amino acids, and minerals. The best silage (fermented livestock feed) is made from alfalfa harvested before it achieves peak mass, as early harvested alfalfa has greater nutritive value (especially elevated protein content, which equates to higher N content). Finding a farmer that would let you harvest enough to fill your fermenter shouldn't be too difficult depending on where you are. One consideration would be reducing the amount of indigestible fiber (stalk) in your fermenter by using predominantly leaves and plant heads, thereby helping to concentrate the goodness:)

Regarding Vallisneria, the most relevant growth related info I could find was here: , where they mention that "Staminate inflorescences and pistillate flowers were high in crude protein (averaged 21.8% and 16.1% of the dry-weight, respectively". At 13%-19% Nitrogen content of proteins, this would equate to a moderate N source.

Spirulina, OTOH, seems like a wonder organism, with high amounts of everything. Have to wonder about the cost, though. And it's probably not part of my plants' hundred-mile-diet.

Cheers.

[rant]Stupid login timeout! Remember to save your work, kids![/rant]

 

[A. Muse]

Alfalfa

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4723720...ea-Grow-Technical-Description-Seaweed-Extract

AN's description of their tea. A good read from which most of their recipe can be gleaned, but skirts the triacontanol water solubility point (of course):

Advanced Nutrients has used alfalfa meal as a main constituent of Mother Earth Super Tea. For every batch of Mother Earth Super Tea we manufacture, we start off with a very potent organic base-tea made from a large complement of alfalfa meal. This tea-making-process is many days long and extracts the essences of the alfalfa meal as much as possible, bringing into solution every cellular component that can be suspended and solubilized. The pressed and dried leaves of alfalfa that we use yield many water soluble organic compounds but most importantly it is a source of Tricontanol.

I don't mean to thread-jack here, so will someone please let me know if this Alfalfa discussion should be moved into it's own thread? Thanks.

Muse

 

[Seamaiden]

Great stuff on the spirulina! I only ever used it for my fish, it really *is* a super-food that, if the animal won't take it directly can be fed via gut-loading of organisms it will eat. Boosts immune systems, animals color up gorgeously (better than with brine shrimp!) and it can often be the push that gets them into breeding form.

Interesting that you've teased out nutritional information on Vallisneria, too, good stuff should probably be submitted to wetwebmedia dot com (that site is a Googlewhack, great information to be found there, lots of slogging around).

As for the triacontanol, Muse, are you saying that it's not water soluble? If so, what have I been pulling from the alfalfa teas I make that the plants go nuts over? Is it better in this instance to go with Superthrive if I'm not getting the triacontanol from the alfalfa? And finally, do we believe them if they can't even spell triacontanol? I spend a total of one hour making alfalfa tea. Agreed on the utility of using pelleted feed versus any other form, I ask for the sweepings from my local feed store, has been working well.

I don't think the alfalfa bit should be moved in part because I don't think the mods know how to split threads and in part (mainly) because it's a plant extract and pretty much matches the topic of discussion.

 

[dextr0]

Wow. That's a tall order. :sweating Would it be OK if I just shared some of the info that I've been processing?:icon_dizzy:
I think the brew's the problem. Have you tried Budweiser? Actually, I've moved entirely away from beer and am running Gatorade now- electrolytes, sugars, excellent flavor selection etc. Lately, I've been adding a few cans of RockStar to the mix and the early results are very promising. Don't quote me on this, but cannabis plants seem to transpire faster when they're loaded on caffeine.:cool0041:

All jesting aside, I'm in a busy cycle- manicuring, transplanting and taking new cuts- am too distracted to get into it ATM but wanted to check in to let you know that I'm here in spirit.

^^^Lol, i cant help it man i got time on my hands and no matter what am always a bit of an experimenter. Anyway yea yea, take u time, just please got back to us as we need someone w a little experience.

Thanks for the info dextr0. Hadn't seen the subcool recipe before but will take those ideas into consideration. There are some threads about it on here and in other forums.

As for the castings, I don't know if they'd ferment so I guess it's experiment time.

Good find on the tea brew, but am more interested in FPE than AACT due to solubility/availability of nutrients. Shelf life and high concentration is also a plus. The prospect of hiking pack-loads of tea all summer is not appealing whatsoever. Am all about maximum efficiency, and the organic/biodynamic/FPE approach seems to offer low risk (of diseases and stresses), high reward (quantity and quality), and set-it-and-forget-it ease of use (concentrated amendments, active cultural environment). Provided you've done your homework, of course. To borrow a phrase: "The dictionary is the only place where success comes before work."

Found a recipe for psuedo-fermented alfalfa:
No sugar/food is added to the mix so it's less of a fermentation than a anaerobic sludge, especially considering his mention of the smell dictating the finished product. More experimentation necessary, although it would be good to have some actual verification about the triacontanol availability before completely trusting the FPE to provide it. Just re-read the thread after you mentioned the EM-1 and found:

Sounds like a close to perfect activator, though the 'useful organic substances' mentioned may or may not include hormones and enzymes present in the source material. I just contacted TeraGanix to get their take on this. Will report my findings back here. And will be getting some EM-1 for all FPE brews. Seems like a small price to pay for a large benefit. A liter will go a long way once activated, especially at 1-2tsp/gal of AEM per brew.

Brewer's tip: Using airlocks in your fermenting vessels will allow gases to escape (no burping required) while stopping unwanted organisms from entering your brew. Also, the use of sterile equipment reduces the risk of infection.

You make a good point about the hay. Pellets are just chopped hay (meal), but typically contain a binding agent (e.g. 1 - 3% of molasses, fat or colloidal clays) that may interfere with complete fermentation. Considering this I might go one step further and use green alfalfa due to the higher concentration of proteins, amino acids, and minerals. The best silage (fermented livestock feed) is made from alfalfa harvested before it achieves peak mass, as early harvested alfalfa has greater nutritive value (especially elevated protein content, which equates to higher N content). Finding a farmer that would let you harvest enough to fill your fermenter shouldn't be too difficult depending on where you are. One consideration would be reducing the amount of indigestible fiber (stalk) in your fermenter by using predominantly leaves and plant heads, thereby helping to concentrate the goodness:)

Regarding Vallisneria, the most relevant growth related info I could find was here: , where they mention that "Staminate inflorescences and pistillate flowers were high in crude protein (averaged 21.8% and 16.1% of the dry-weight, respectively". At 13%-19% Nitrogen content of proteins, this would equate to a moderate N source.

Spirulina, OTOH, seems like a wonder organism, with high amounts of everything. Have to wonder about the cost, though. And it's probably not part of my plants' hundred-mile-diet.

Cheers.

[rant]Stupid login timeout! Remember to save your work, kids![/rant]

^^^ Let Wiki explain a little more about what EM1 is for you so u can get a better understanding.

Effective Microorganisms, aka EM Technology, is a trademarked term now commonly used to describe a proprietary blend of 3 or more types of predominantly anaerobic organisms that was originally marketed as EM-1 Microbial Inoculant but is now marketed by a plethora of companies under various names, each with their own proprietary blend. "EM Technology" uses a laboratory cultured mixture of microorganisms consisting mainly of lactic acid bacteria, purple bacteria, and yeast which co-exist for the benefit of whichever environment they are introduced, as has been claimed by the various em-like culture purveyors. It is reported to include:

* Lactic acid bacteria: Lactobacillus plantarum; L. casei; Streptococcus Lactis.
* Photosynthetic bacteria: Rhodopseudomonas palustris; Rhodobacter sphaeroides.
* Yeast: Saccharomyces cerevisiae; Candida utilis (no longer used) (usually known as Torula, Pichia Jadinii).
* Actinomycetes (no longer used in the formulas): Streptomyces albus; S. griseus.
* Fermenting fungi (no longer used in the formulas): Aspergillus oryzae; Mucor hiemalis.

Origins

The concept of ‘Friendly Microorganisms’ was developed by Japanese horticulturist Teruo Higa, from the University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa Prefecture|Okinawa, Japan. He reported in the 1970s that a combination of approximately 80 different microorganisms is capable of positively influencing decomposing organic matter such that it reverts into a ‘life promoting’ process. Higa invokes a ‘dominance principle’ to explain the effects of his ‘Effective Microorganisms’. He claims that three groups of microorganisms exist: ‘positive microorganisms’ (regeneration), ‘negative microorganisms’ (decomposition, degeneration), ‘opportunist microorganisms’. In every medium (soil, water, air, the human intestine), the ratio of ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ microorganisms is critical, since the opportunist microorganisms follow the trend to regeneration or degeneration. Therefore, Higa believes that it is possible to positively influence the given media by supplementing with positive microorganisms.

With the Lactic bacilli recipe that i gave it only has one of those workhorses for us. By letting the rice water set out we gathered Indigenous Micro Organisms from the air around us, then we gave a specific food (in this case milk) to feed only a certain type to breed that and starve/kill off most or all of the others (some were good and others probably bad). The thing is we only breed one type of Beneficial. And different substances (what ever your looking to decompose/regenerate) have different needs. So though LAB is good, the way i understand from others who use em1 is what u wanna get as you get more benneficials that either work faster or on other substances that the LAB by itself cannot break down. I hope that makes sense.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4723720...ea-Grow-Technical-Description-Seaweed-Extract

AN's description of their tea. A good read from which most of their recipe can be gleaned, but skirts the triacontanol water solubility point (of course):



I don't mean to thread-jack here, so will someone please let me know if this Alfalfa discussion should be moved into it's own thread? Thanks.

Muse

^^^The alfalfa stuff is great, and no need for it to go anywhere else its about fermentation and trying to make your own nutrients. Very on subject. Thanx. I love ANs site just because of some of the info they give out. Sure we gotta do a little digging but hey its worth it to me.

 

[dextr0]

As for the triacontanol, Muse, are you saying that it's not water soluble?

Check this out sea i found this on this site they got cool stuff for sale too...
http://www.super-grow.biz/Triacontanol.jsp
Preparing
Dissolving
Polysorbate 20
Triacontanol powder is a wax-like flake that must be dissolved into a liquid. The best method of turning the Triacontanol powder into liquid is by using a food additive called Polysorbate 20. Among other uses Polysorbate is used in ice cream. You can find Polysorbate 20 on Ebay (www.ebay.com) and it's pretty cheap.
Heating

I placed one scoop (1/32 spoon) of the Triacontanol in a glass container with 50 ml of water and one scoop of Polysorbate 20. After heating it in the microwave and shaking it a bit the Triacontanol was completely dissolved.
Diluting

After the Triacontanol has been dissolved it's important that you add the solution to water and not the other way around. In this case we added enough to make 0.1 liters of a 100 PPM solution.

^^^Wonder what the story is on that...back to digging...

 

[Seamaiden]

What about the alfalfa tea I've been making and using, though? It sets no more than an hour, so I'm wondering what is in there now.

 

[dextr0]

Sea thats one little miracle worker...

http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/2294/

Alfalfa Tea, the natural flower booster by Trevor Inkpen

Dry alfalfa is a good slow-release source of nitrogen, but since you will be "digesting" it by letting it ferment in water, the resulting tea is a soluable, fast-acting nitrogen source.

Also, by making alfalfa (or manure) tea, you don't have to worry about weed seeds sprouting from the fertilizer.

Orchid and rose growers use alfalfa tea as a foliar spray. If you grow delphiniums and irises, they also love alfalfa tea. Some iris growers mulch their beds with alfalfa meal. And an additional benefit for delphiniums is that the Epsom salts in the tea help to ward off slugs and snails. In addition to nitrogen, alfalfa supplies enzymes and trace elements that are not present in chemical nitrogen fertilizers.

Alfalfa ingredients:
Triacontanol (growth stimulant)
Vitamin A (high concentration)
Thiamine
Riboflavin
Pantothenic Acid
Niacin
Pyridoxine
Choline
Bentaine
Folic Acid
co-enzymes
Crude proteins (16 - 25% in dry alfalfa)

Amino acids (% in alfalfa meal).
Tryptophan, 0.3 %
Aspartic Acid, 2.3%
Threonine, 1.0 %
Serine, 1.0%
Glutamic Acid, 2.7%
Proline, 1.2%
Glycine, 1.1%
Alanine, 1.1%
Cystine, 0.2%
Valine, 1.0%
Methionine, 0.3%
Isoleucine, 0.8%
Leucine, 1.6%
Tyrosine, 0.5%
Phenylalanine, 1.0%
Histidine, 0.4%
Lysine, Total, 1.1%
Arginine, 1.1%

Minerals (contained in dry alfalfa)
Nitrogen 3.75-5.5 %
Potassium .75 - 3.5 %
Phosphorus .3 - .7%
Calcium 1 - 2 %
Magnesium .30 - 1 %
Sulphur .2 - .5 %
Manganese 30-200 ppm
Iron 20-250 ppm
Boron 20-80 ppm
Copper 5-20 ppm
Zinc 20-70 ppm

The Mix:
Choose a garbage bin or barrel with no leaks and a tight fitting lid. Position it in an out of the way place - you don't want to have to move it once it's full. For a full size garbage bin (20 gallons) add 16 cups of alfalfa pellets or alfalfa meal (4 cups to every 5 gallons or 22 litres of water)

Add 1 - 2 cups of Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate crystals) (or one quarter to half a cup to 5 gallons) Optionally, add two tablespoons of Iron Chelate
Fill with water, put on a tight lid to prevent mosquitos from breeding in your "swamp"
Let stand for one week until it bubbles with fermentation. Your nose will tell you that it's ready.

Using it:

Apply alfalfa tea once per month in the spring and summer, especially after the first flush of flowers, to encourage repeat blooming. You can reduce or eliminate the Epsom salts in later batches.

Stop applying it in the fall, when you want the plants to start hardening off for the winter, and don't want to encourage soft new growth.

Put on some old clothes - you're going to get splashed, and you don't want to be socializing with anyone while wearing the alfalfa tea!

Scoop off the liquid with a bucket and apply.

Pour a gallon of tea per rose around the base of the plant; more for large climbers, less for potted roses and minis.

Soak small potted roses in a bucket of tea for 15 minutes each.

When you have scooped off most of the liquid, you will be left with a thick goop of alfalfa in the garbage bin. There are two ways to treat this:

Method A: You can add another quarter-cup of epsom salts, fill the garbage can one third of the way up again, and stir the mix briskly so that the alfalfa is suspended in the water. This slurry can be applied to your roses immediately. Choose the roses in the back of your beds for this tea, where the greenish brown puddle of alfalfa slurry won't be too visible.

Method B: Add the full dose of Epsom salts, refill to the top with water and let sit for another week. Use the liquid, and then bury the alfalfa dregs into your compost pile (by this time they will be pretty smelly)

Another Recipe:

May I share with you and your many gardening friends my recipe for "Alfalfa Tea". I use it to fertilize everything in my garden. I have wonderful results. I can water a plant with it and the next day the blooms are more intense in their color and the foliage is more healthy. The only drawback is the "barnyard odor".

ALFALFA TEA

32 GALLON TRASH CAN
10 CUPS ALFALFA PELLETS (obtained from feed stores)
1 CUP EPSOM SALTS
1 CUP FISH EMULSION

Add the pellets to the trash can. Fill trash can with water. Stir. Cover trash can tightly with lid. For the next three days stir "tea" several times a day in order to dissolve the pellets. Keep covered. On the third day add epsom salts and fish emulsion. It is ready to use on any vegetable, plant, tree or bush. I guarantee success.You will never want to use a commercially prepared fertilizer again. At times I have been out of epsom salts and the fish emulsion and I have omitted those products and the results have been good but not as spectacular. I store the "tea" in gallon plastic containers and hide these around my garden so that I don't have to always take the "tea" from the trash can.

When all the "tea" is used, there will be enough pellet residue in the bottom of the trash can that you again fill the trash can with water and make more "tea".

Rachel Reed

 

[Seamaiden]

Wow... all I do is take a handful of alfalfa hay and put it into about a liter (1/2 gallon) of warm to almost hot water, and let it steep for a half hour to hour. Strain off and use as is or mix with fertilizers of your choice. I also do not use it on plants that are nearing the end of their life cycle, as I don't want to encourage new vegetative growth.

Cool stuff!

 

[leadsled]

This is thread is excellent, been subscribed for a while.

Now Plant Steroids! sweet. great info on triacontanol. Have been interested and experimenting with it for a few grows.

all the brands of products with triacontanol all claim it is a extensive and expensive process. Some of the pricing of these products ouch.. canna boost/bioboost/ag organics.

TO be able to get same result with a homemade brew. that would be like a dream!

I have used both alfala and triacontanol, both give me excellent results. some alfalfa products did work better for me over others.

Alfalfa:
I have gotten the best results from MET tea and always suspected it was the alfalfa. I tried pura vida over pureblend pro because of the alfalfa on the label. Not as good results. AN is know to hide hormones/pgr's in there product and not tell you. Thanks for pointing out that in there marketing spiel.
That is one technique AN uses to trick you, not disclose the ingredient that actually makes the product work it magic.
(chitinase/salytic acid in rhino skin is one example of ingredient not listed on the label)

Seamaiden, triacontanol is in superthrive?

Triacontanol

more info (thanks Kosmo)

Triacontanol & little L-Amino Acids



BioBoost alfalfa meal extract (states triacontanol is not water soluble here)


Maybe another thread on plant steroids? or good to share here?

thanks,
Lead

 

[A. Muse]

Good stuff y'all. I found and kicked around the super-grow site as well. Tweaker heaven.

Sea, everything I've found about triacontanol states that it's water-insoluble. Except where AN contradict themselves later in that same paper and say that it IS water soluble, and that they do a hot water extraction. dextr0 mentioned the waxy nature of the TRI extract, and standard alfalfa literature talks about a waxy cuticle on the leaf preventing extraction. Just found this:
"In room temperature pure triacontanol is in solid form and the melting point is +85-90°C. Triacontanol is not water soluble. It is soluble in different organic, polaric and non-polaric solvents"
That AN paper also talks about TRI research and positive effect being realized with TRI present in "nano-molar" amounts. As they mention, if even a trace amount of TRI touched the plant tissue it would be affected. And it would be hard to believe that absolutely NO TRI was extracted in the AACT or FPE processes. Which brings up the interesting experiment of the effect of trace amounts vs. the pure extract (from Super-Grow). CAUTION: TRI can be over-applied to the point of being detrimental to results achieved at lower exposure, so you might want to be careful with the dosage of the more concentrated extract. Research seems to point to the 3-4 times/crop foliar as being the proper dosage.

So even though you're not performing an extraction, per se, your hot water soak seems to make sense. And while there're no doubting the repeated results people are getting, colour me skeptical that the tea recipe being used by the rose/orchid/iris growers is a great way to extract TRI. I'd be more inclined to believe that a higher percentage of TRI (and insoluble minerals & acids) existed in a "proper" fermentation (addition of molasses & EM-1, strain it off, etc.). Guess it's experiment time. And I'm guessing the fermented product doesn't smell as bad, either.

And yes, apparently TRI is one of the magic ingredients in SuperThrive as well, according to Interrnet rumour. As is NAA (Naphthalene Acetic Acid, another hormone available from Super-Grow).

 

[A. Muse]

Willow

My notes on Willow (yes, the tree).

The main ingredients that affect plant growth are Salicylic acid (a "plant growth regulator") and Rhizocaline (aka "Willow Rooting Substance" a non-auxin, it is still being studied but it works in unison with auxins to aid root development)

• Salicylic acid is a plant growth regulator that increases plant bioproductivity. Experiments carried out with ornamental or horticultural plants in greenhouse conditions or in the open have clearly demonstrated that they respond to this compound. Moreover, lower quantities of SA are needed to establish positive responses in the plants. The effect on ornamental plants is expressed as the increase in plant size, the number of flowers, leaf area and the early appearance of flowers. In horticultural species, the effect reported is the increase of yield without affecting the quality of the fruits. It is proposed that the increase in bioproductivity is mainly due to the positive effect of SA on root length and its density.
• Salicylic acid (SA) is a phytohormone; and a phenol, ubiquitous in plants generating a significant impact on plant growth and development, photosynthesis, transpiration, ion uptake and transport and also induces specific changes in leaf anatomy and chloroplast structure. SA is recognized as an endogenous signal, mediating in plant defense, against pathogens. It plays a role in the resistance of pathogens by inducing the production of 'pathogenesis-related proteins'. It is involved in the systemic acquired resistance [SAR] in which a pathogenic attack on older leaves causes the development of resistance in younger leaves, though whether SA is the transmitted signal is debatable. SA is the calorigenic substance that causes thermogenesis in Arum flowers.
• The theory is that auxin alone is insufficient to cause rooting; there must be an additional substance, tentatively called "rhizocaline," which acts with auxin to stimulate root formation. Plants with an abundance of both substances are easy to root with no external hormone applications. Plants which root easily with a commercial auxin preparation must have adequate natural rhizocaline, but they lack adequate auxin. Still other plants, which are difficult to root even with an auxin preparation, must lack natural rhizocaline. It is these plants which would benefit most from a willow water treatment.

http://www.bluestem.ca/willow-article1.htm :

"Make your own willow water:
Easily root azaleas, lilacs, summersweets (Clethra spp.) and roses by gathering about two cups of pencil-thin willow branches cut to 1-3 inch lengths. Steep twigs in a half-gallon of boiling water overnight. Refrigerated liquid kept in a jar with a tight-fitting lid will remain effective up to two months. (Label jar so you won’t confuse it with your homemade moonshine.) Overnight, soak cuttings you wish to root. Or water soil into which you have planted your cuttings with the willow water. Two applications should be sufficient. Some cuttings root directly in a jar of willow water. Make a fresh batch for each use. You can also use lukewarm water and let twigs soak for 24-48 hours."

As always, use chlorine-free water (RO, etc.). And consider macerating the stems before use. Like hitting them with a hammer.

I would also add willow to a FPE or AACT used for transplanting due to the rooting effects of the rhizocaline (which is water soluble :) ).

http://www.super-grow.biz/IndoleButiricAcidPlantRootingHormone.jsp#rhizocaline

 

[dextr0]

^^^made a new thread for some of this stuff as i feel it pertains more to this . Been meaning to do it for awhile now anyway. Good stuff, keep it coming Muse.

 

[dextr0]

This is thread is excellent, been subscribed for a while.

Now Plant Steroids! sweet. great info on triacontanol. Have been interested and experimenting with it for a few grows.

all the brands of products with triacontanol all claim it is a extensive and expensive process. Some of the pricing of these products ouch.. canna boost/bioboost/ag organics.

TO be able to get same result with a homemade brew. that would be like a dream!

I have used both alfala and triacontanol, both give me excellent results. some alfalfa products did work better for me over others.

Alfalfa:
I have gotten the best results from MET tea and always suspected it was the alfalfa. I tried pura vida over pureblend pro because of the alfalfa on the label. Not as good results. AN is know to hide hormones/pgr's in there product and not tell you. Thanks for pointing out that in there marketing spiel.
That is one technique AN uses to trick you, not disclose the ingredient that actually makes the product work it magic.
(chitinase/salytic acid in rhino skin is one example of ingredient not listed on the label)

Seamaiden, triacontanol is in superthrive?

Triacontanol

more info (thanks Kosmo)

Triacontanol & little L-Amino Acids



BioBoost alfalfa meal extract (states triacontanol is not water soluble here)


Maybe another thread on plant steroids? or good to share here?

thanks,
Lead

^^^Sup lead diddnt mean to ignore i just been busy trying to process all this information yall dropped on me.

I stayed up last night thinking about the little alfalfa situation and looking, and digging. This is what i came up with which is rather simple since its been right in our faces in the first place.

I THINK this guy gave us the game here when he said

"Triacontanol powder is a wax-like flake that must be dissolved into a liquid. The best method of turning the Triacontanol powder into liquid is by using a food additive called Polysorbate 20. Among other uses Polysorbate is used in ice cream. You can find Polysorbate 20 on Ebay (www.ebay.com) and it's pretty cheap.
Heating

I placed one scoop (1/32 spoon) of the Triacontanol in a glass container with 50 ml of water and one scoop of Polysorbate 20. After heating it in the microwave and shaking it a bit the Triacontanol was completely dissolved."

So i wondered, what is polysorbate?

Emulsifier

An emulsifier (also known as an emulgent) is a substance which stabilizes an emulsion by increasing its kinetic stability. One class of emulsifiers is known as surface active substances, or surfactants.
Detergents are another class of surfactant, and will physically interact with both oil and water, thus stabilizing the interface between oil or water droplets in suspension. Common examples include emulsifying wax, cetearyl alcohol, polysorbate 20, and ceteareth 20.

What is an Emulsion?
An emulsion is a mixture of two or more immiscible (unblendable) liquids. Emulsions are part of a more general class of two-phase systems of matter called colloids. Although the terms colloid and emulsion are sometimes used interchangeably, emulsion tends to imply that both the dispersed and the continuous phase are liquid. In an emulsion, one liquid (the dispersed phase) is dispersed in the other (the continuous phase).
vvvThis picture should help understand that...


Just remember what supergro website said...The top layer would be the wax if it wasnt on the plants but since it is its with the plants at the bottom of our extract vessel. So we do exactly what he told us to do here : "place one scoop (1/32 spoon) of the Triacontanol in a glass container with 50 ml of water and one scoop of Polysorbate 20. After heating it in the microwave and shaking it a bit the Triacontanol was completely dissolved."...only thing is we are using a bigger amount of everything. How much bigger or how much of what....idk yet but its a start....
Im tired guys i get at yall later.

dextr0

 

[dextr0]

Thought some of you would want to know what to do with your Lactic Acid Bacteria.

Borrowed and modified from here:http://www.thctalk.com/cannabis-forum/showthread.php?33300-Using-tea-in-a-tea
Nettle Tea
1. Cut the nettles at about half their height. Remember, wear gloves!

2. Mix the cuttings with water in a large container such as a large plastic garbage can. You'll need a lid, because nettle tea smells absolutely disgusting. Use a non-chlorinated source of water, such as water from a rainbarrel or cistern, as chlorine inhibits the fermentation of the tea. Mix 1 gallon of water with every pound of fresh or 2 ounces of dried nettles. Cover with the lid!<<Here we add LAB serum to hurry fermentation should take two or three days..How much 0.8 of a cup. Also same amount of Molasses.

3.The tea is ready when fermentation has ceased. Test for this by stirring. Avert your nose to avoid the fumes, then sneak a peak. No more bubbles? It's ready to use.

4. Strain the tea as soon as fermentation has stopped. Store the infusion in clean plastic or glass containers in a cool spot.

5. Remember, unless you want the herbicide effect, dilute the tea before using. For soil applications, dilute to a 10% solution (1 cup of original infusion to 10 cups of water) or 5% for foliar feeding.

And Bokashi
http://www.hawaiihealingtree.org/?p=163
Bokashi is a method of intensive composting. It can use an aerobic or anaerobic inoculation to produce the compost. Once a starter culture is made, it can be used to extend the culture indefinitely, like yogurt culture. Since the popular introduction of effective microorganisms (EM), Bokashi is commonly ma
de with only molasses, water, EM, and wheat bran.

In home composting applications, kitchen waste is placed into a container which can be sealed with an air tight lid. These scraps are then inoculated with a Bokashi EM mix. This usually takes the form of a carrier, such

as rice hulls, wheat bran or saw dust, that has been inoculated with composting micro-organisms. The EM are natural lactic acid bacteria, yeast, and phototrophic bacteria that act as a microbe community within the kitchen scraps, fermenting and accelerating breakdown of the organic matter. The user would place alternating layers of food scraps and Bokashi mix until the container is full.

Bokashi Grain: fermented wheat barley

Bokashi is moderately easy and cheap to make and there are many online video walkthroughs, you tube being a great place for a beginner to get some help, but here is a easy simple way to make Bokashi. Mostly made from wheat husks or wheat bran but I have heard of people using any thing from oats, barley, wood chips and even unsalted peanut husks.

Bokashi Grain :( 10 & 50 lb mix)

10 lbs wheat bran

4 tbsp EM serum

4 tbsp Molasses

10-12 cups non -chlorinated water

______________________

50 lb wheat bran

3/4 cup EM serum

3/4 cup Molasses

3-4 gallons Non-chlorinated water

air tight containers such as buckets with lids or storage totes will work too.

Something to mix in or on.

Procedure:

1. Add molasses to water and mix well.

2. Add Em serum

3. put wheat bran in mixing container or on something to mix on if one is making large amounts.

4. add liquid slowly and mix vigourously till all liquid is added

and all bran material is dampened. Bokashi mix should be equally damp and slightly sticks to itself.

5. For my ferment I do 5 gallon buckets and trash bags. Once my mix is ready I line a 5 gallon bucket with 2 trash bags and start scooping my Bokashi mix in side in layer, compacting and squeezing all the air out of my bran mix.(Keynote: Air will create the wrong bacterial culture and if you see black , green or gray mold throw your mix away, white is OK that is yeast.) Tie off bags and place air tight lid on bucket.

Compact Air-tight Bokashi mix in 5 gallon bucket

6. Store for 14 days in cool dark area for fermenting.

7. open fermented mix(smell should be like apple cider sweet)and Sundry on concrete or on a tarp in the sun, time may vary depending on your location and time of year for drying.

8. Place in container for your Bokashi composting needs, flush down toilet to clear septic tanks, feed to live stock to better digestion.

Well this is a couple cheap easy trade secrets that should benefit your organic medical gardens Thumbs. Be green and frugal it is best we do thing for ourselves. If you feel the need to do more research look into organic farming with probiotics for plants.

 

[dextr0]

http://www.thenaturalfarmingway.com/recipes/indigenous-microorganisms-imo/imo-introduction

Been looking at this site for a min. Lots of information on making your own fertz and how to use lacto, make fpe...cool stuff.

Looks like molasses is not in my fermented anything for a while, I need brown sugar.

NOTE: Molasses is not recommended for use. It contains too much moisture to raise the osmotic pressure as high as brown sugar does for good fermentation.

I couldnt help it.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_WzjiTzZBA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[dextr0]

I found this and found it intresting. Seems they are using Silica from horsetail as foliar once it has been extacted in honey..?? Not sure how that works. Going off of what I know (which is very little so if Im wrong correct please), honey is an emulsifier. Just like polsyorbate 20, from above discussion on Triacontanol. This is my theory, its interesting none the less and will be looking more into it. I didn't even know people used silica as foliar.

http://nfe.localgarden.us/index.php...nts_and_Beneficial_Indigenous_Micro-Organisms
Plants and Materials used for Bio Nutrients and Beneficial Indigenous Micro-Organisms
From NaturalFarmingEncyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Plants and Materials used for Bio Nutrients and Beneficial Indigenous Micro-Organisms

HORSETAIL (Equisetum arvense)

Silica is used in Natural Farming as fermented plant juice (FPJ) and sprayed on leaves in combination with other FPJ's as a natural fungicide. The water repelling properties of silica help shed the water and reduce fungus.

The sterile leafy stems of common horsetail, Equisetum arvense, are used worldwide for medicine. The fertile temporary strobili-bearing stems when young were allegedly eaten by the Romans. Fertile and young vegetative shoots of the Giant horsetail, E. telmatiea, were an important Spring food for Coast Salish Peoples on the North Pacific Coast from Oregon to Alaska (Pojar and Mackinnon). Excessive consumption of raw horsetails is thiamine suppressive and GI-disruptive.

Only the emergent stems of horsetail are used for medicine.

I could find no reference to medicinal use of the usually deeply-buried tuberous rhizomes. The primary medicinal uses of horsetails are as a source of silica and for urinary/reproductive problems (Turner).

Horsetails as a Source of Silica Horsetails are the most-heavily silicified land plants, 5-10% dry weight silica.

Equisetum plants use silica plates for stem structural stiffening instead of woody reinforcement. These plates are only loosely interconnected and can present a hazard when inhaled during the garbling of dried stems. (One acute episode of silica particulate dust is usually manageable by resident lung macrophages, with silica being expelled in excretory sputum; in some individuals, the silica is reworked into delicate hollow spherical globes.) Chronic exposure to sharp silica particles induces silicosis (chronic fibrosis), COPD and occasionally primary lung cancer.

If mature silicified horsetail stems are placed in a small kiln with an observation port and watched while all of the organic material is burned away, exquisite delicate three-dimensional replicas of the stems will remain until they shatter when the kiln is moved or the door opened. They strangely resemble the magical cities of glass pictured on the first paperback edition of Ray Bradbury’s Martian Chronicles.

Silica in mature horsetails is only barely available for extraction in water or hydroethanol. It is opaline silica glass. In dried mature stems, especially, the silica is insoluble.

We need silica for bone and tooth formation, and the maintenance of healthy skin, and mucopolysaccharide structures.

In studies done at UCLA , electron probe analyses of elemental species present just before bone began to form in fetal rats showed the presence of silicon before any calcium or phosphorous. As bone formation actually began with the deposition of calcium phosphate, the silicon vanished. Silicon may need to be present for successful tissue mineralization to both begin and successfully progress.

Dissolved silica is therapeutically useful to aid bone formation in growing children, especially adolescents who are complaining of (probably) very real pains associated with overnight bone elongation episodes. In adolescent humans long bones can elongate by up to 2 cm overnight. I urge parents to indulge youth who are actually presenting growing pains, by allowing their respective children to stay in bed to allow completion of bone remineralization after an elongation episode.

Similarly, silica aids bone repair subsequent to fractures and splintering due to injuries from falling, impact trauma and vehicular collisions. In the latter bone remodeling and repair can take many months.

Painful teething in children can be helped with horsetail syrup, 5-10cc, 2x daily.

To successfully extract available silica from horsetail, live young actively growing stems are used to prepare a thick syrup; in them, silica is still in solution waiting to be deposited as structural plates. Silica tends to be insoluble at pH below 7.2-7.4. The pH of honey is 7.4-7.8. Quickly cut-up soft green stems and place in very warm (100-110oF) honey, 1 part horsetail to 3 parts warm honey and keep at circa 100oF for several days, stirring several times daily. The high honey sugar content will burst equisetum cells and preserve the contents from microbial growth

Brinker (1995) suggests that some silica may be extractable from dried mature horsetail stems. Fresh juice from either young plants of Cleavers (Galium aparine) or nettles (Urtica spp.) also tends to be rich in silica.

 

[dextr0]

Secret Bloom Soil! Hush!!!!!
PostDateIcon November 26th, 2010 | PostAuthorIcon Author: rev.summit

Aloha friends and thumbs I am back to give you a secret ferment recipe I mix for my blooming phase plant. In layering my soils in transplant I am able to boost my bloom. Simple an easy I will be fermenting bananas, if you do your own research one will find burying bananas in your soil will boost flowering( potassium), many champion flower growers use this method. I take it another step, we always heard about the old guys talking about feeding plants fruit juice, well this kinda the same too but organically and we make a soil out of our ferment. So here it is:

Banana Soil:

1gallon container
2 bunches bananas or about a pound of peels
**1apple, 1over ripe papaya( these are optional)
1 bottle gin
3 cups brown sugar
30 lbs earthworm castings

Procedure:
1. Cut and put all fruit in a large container
2. Add brown sugar and stir until completely coated
3. Add 6oz gin
4. Cover with paper towel and rubberband
5. Let stand for 5days and stir after stir add one cup gin
6. Let stand 14 days
7. Add ferment to 30 lbs EWC and mix well let stand 5-7 days
8. Layer into transplant so as the roots grow into it, when they do wow
*** I also use this in sexing my seed plants in a 24 hr light cycle**

 

[dextr0]

Work in progress I will not heat, and some other stuff, gotta read more. Does anyone know why I can or cant use Citric Acid as ph down?

Gojo's DIY 'CEDHF':
(Cold Enzymatically Digested Hydrolyzed Fish)

1. Weigh out equal amounts (1:1) of bycatch or edible whole fish to distilled water.
2. Either dice and mince the fish or put it through a food processor, or a strong blender like a vita-mixer. You need to throughly process the fish into small pieces.
3. Preheat an oven to 122 degrees F (50 degrees C)
4. Lay the fish onto a baking tray, and try not to layer the fish if you can help it. Place the tray into the oven and bake the fish for 0.5-2 minutes, depending upon the quantity and size of fish chunks.[4][5]
* It is possible to use a microwave instead of the oven, I can provide info if there is interest.

* Heating inactivates the endogenous enzymes (and microbes) which are on and in the fish. I want to control what enzymes and microbes are present.

* This step could be skipped and the 'endogenous enzyme activity [of the fish] alone'[6] can digest most of the fish. But I don't want unknown enzymes and microbes in the finished hydrolyzed fish so that's why I heat it.
5. Cover the fish and let it cool. Then and add the fish, along with the distilled water into a strong blender like a vita-mixer and liquefy (5-10 minutes).
6. Adjust the resulting 'fluid' to a ph of 5 using phosphoric acid (aka 'ph down'[7])
* Because I am using a cold enzyme digestion process the ph needs to be low to prevent the gurry from putrefying[2].
* From what I've been able to glean a ph of 4.5 is optimal to prevent putrefaction of gurry. But, a ph of 5 is optimal for papain enzyme action[8][9]. So, I chose a ph of 5 as this will speed the papain's digestion of the fish which will of course shorten the digestion time and reduce the chance (time wise) of the gurry putrefying.
* Use of phosphoric acid is suggested when horticulture is the intended target and phosphoric acid acts as a stabilizer for the gurry[2].
* Use the blender to fully mix the phosphoric acid when testing the ph.
7. Add papain to gurry with an enzyme to fish (not gurry) ratio of 700-1,000 U to a gram of fish[5]
* 'Papain'[10] and 'Alcalase'[11] are the two best known enzymes for digesting fish[5][6] and Alcalase will digest up to 95% of the fish[6]. But, Alcalase prefers a ph of 7-9[11] and it is expensive and hard to find. However, Papain also digests a large quantity of fish[6], but it's ideal ph is 5 and it is inexpensive and easy to find[12].
* So, you will want to add about 1,000 U of papain per gram of fish product (not gurry). Each pill of 'Natural Brand™ Papaya Enzyme'[12] conatins 60,000 U of papain. I'll leave the math up the person making hydrolyzed fish following my directions...
* Buy a pill splitter[13] (about $5.00) and you can split the papain pill into 4 or 6 pieces for greater accuracy. Though, it's better have too much enzyme than not enough.
* Grind the papain pill/s into a fine powder, this will help disperse the papain throughout the fluid. I use a mortar and pestle[14] to pulverize my pills, you can get these at a pharmacy for around $10.00.
* Use the blender to fully mix the papain with the fish liquid.
* A 'U' is a 'USP unit'[15], which is also synonymous with 'IU' (international unit) [16].
8. Place the gurry in cool location (ala refrigerator) between 35 and 38 degrees F (1.7 to 3.3 degrees C) for 4-6 weeks.
9. Filter finished gurry through 100-400 micron screen. The Kis compost tea bag[17] is 400 micron and may work very well, and it's only $10.00.
10. Use the 'CEDHF' lol
* Check the ph, I bet it will be around 5-6, lower is better I would assume but I have no data on that...I'm still just feeling my way around...

 

[Jack Dupp]

BUMP for awesome info. Thanks all.

Dextr0~ I used my homemade EM to "eat" the roots from my old soil mix. Didn't work too well. Back to the drawing board.

 

[dextr0]

Hey Jack, yea Im starting to look into how LAB is specificity used myself. Alot of interesting things are coming up, but with it a lot of confusion. I dont think that LAB is capable of completly breaking all substances down, or if it can I think it may take longer then we expect. When I make FPEs there are still peices of plant etc that i have to strain off. Heres an excerpt of some of the ways these people have used it:

Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB)

1. The Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) are very effective for improving soil ventilation and for growing fruits and leaf vegetables.
2. LAB are conditionally anaerobic, so they can also survive with oxygen.
3. LAB are resistant to high temperatures.
4. LAB are the strong sterilizer.
5. LAB are used to cultivate IMO #3.
6. LAB accelerate root growth during transplanting, and effectively enhance the initial growth of the plant.
7. LAB increase the solubility of the fertilizer.
8. When LAB is used during the vegetative growth period of fruiting vegetables, higher quality plants will result, and may be kept for longer periods in storage.
9. When spraying LAB on a rice paddy field, more weeds will appear.
10. LAB solubilize phosphate in 100~200ppm. Using LAB in phosphate-accumulated soil will increase its capacity to absorb the insoluble form of phosphates, and help overcome the saline disorder as a result of decomposition of the phosphates.
11. Lactic acid (LAB) can reduce damage from gas through neutralizing ammonia gas produced where the immature compost is applied.
12. LAB have an about a week-long resistance to some fungi
13. There is no significant effect of LAB on damage done by diseases and insects.
14. LAB can adjust the fluids within plants, which may increase disease tolerance or harden their bodies even during rainy season.

How to use LAB

1. The basic dilution ratio is 1/1,000.
2. If the LAB is used together with mixed compost or IMO, the fermentation process occurs fast, leading to very effective results. LAB function to prevent the fermented mixed compost from decaying.
3. LAB reinforces the ability of anabolism of microbes living on the plant stem and leaf, a condition that arose from the abuse of insecticides and fungicides.
4. Rather than using LAB alone, it is more effective to use it with FPJ
5. Fields will recover fertility and the soil will become soft and fluffy if IMO mixed with LAB is sprayed on the field.
6. Use LAB (xl/500) with FPJ (xl/300) as drinking water for livestock, to recover their digestive function.
7. Using LAB too much will decrease the sweetness.
8. LAB is extremely effective in making fruits and leaves large, but the amount of LAB used should be reduced approaching the later stages.
http://www.thenaturalfarmingway.com/recipes/lactic-acid-bacteria-lab/how-use-lab

I highlighted the parts talking bout how it sterilizes and preserves because those were interesting points to me and I wanted to learn more.

(I know this has nothing to do with what u were speaking of, I just found this interesting, kind of a ramble. Sorry.)
I also remembered Lactobacillus being used in aquaculture and wondered if somehow lactobacillus was a sterilization factor.
Ive now learned that SOME Lactobacillus do make H2O2. But am still looking to see if has any role in aquaculture and can be used in hydroponics. I notice alot of people using H202 in there systems and to me thats backwards and would just create a vacuum,.....but then again maybe this is just in my mind. Either way it would be interesting if Lactobacillus were producing and doing just what we farmers are doing with h202; naturally.