Gas Chromatography Testing Machines

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DemonTrich

DemonTrich

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@Cyclopath

I got the go ahead to source a unit. We are now looking at the big one below to do full testing. Hoping to get in on the state testing aspect 8n the near future. Reason to buy the big one here vs the 310-mm gc unit
http://srigc.com/home/product_detail/medical-cannabis-cannabinoid-gc


What say you on this? We are also exploring other gc brands. We don' want to drop 15k on a yugo version of gs. We want a quality lasting one.
 
Cyclopath

Cyclopath

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IMHO, the SRI GC's are NOT toys, and should be up for the potency part of state mandated 3rd party testing.

But only if you're willing to do the chemical modifications required to distinguish cannabinoid acids from their decarboxylated equivalents.

My issue with the chemical modification is that the -COOH they protect is the same -COOH that your body removes when joining Amino Acids together to make proteins. If you can't join amino acids to make proteins, you die...over the course of a week or two.

In an actual testing lab, keeping your co-workers soda pop/lunch/half smoked joint off the lab bench should be a no brainer. I have not yet been able to achieve this.

Most 3rd party labs I'm aware of use Liquid Chromatography (HPLC or UHPLC) for cannabinoid determination because they can get quantitative results without chemical modification. the least expensive detection is UV. Not all UV detectors are created equal. a DAD or "diode array detector" is considered the best for cannabinoids (or so I hear). You're looking at about $20k for an entry level HPLC (wild guess).

Terpenes can be done on an HPLC, but Restek recommends against this strategy https://blog.restek.com/?p=33071

Head space is the industry standard. I tried to get it working with essentially the same GC you are proposing, and it was nowhere near "quantitative".

SRI does have a better head space setup, and if you're going to try to get terpenes and/or residual solvents, I recommend you chat with them about it. http://srigc.com/home/product_detail/heated-static-headspace-injector
I know nothing about it other than having read the description yesterday. It seems to have most of the do-dads the chemists I talked to said I would need to add to my GC if I wanted reliable terpene or solvent analysis. A second FID would seem useful as well.

In Oregon our labs now have to be state certified. The method validations & statistics required to meet this certification were above my pay grade. I watched a number of labs who did not have a masters or PhD level chemist on staff fail to meet those requirements. I spent a little time working in a lab who were using TLC for cannabinoids & an SRI GC for pesticide testing. I left because I considered the pesticide reports they were generating were complete bullshit. They did ok for a couple of years, but when the state certification requirements came into effect, they sold to an out of state group who bought in $100k worth of equipment and a real chemist.

I find my SRI GC-FID awesome for in-house testing, but would never dream of trying to run a full scale testing lab with it. I believe SRI's "pesticide" setup can be trained to recognize specific pesticides (great if you know what you sprayed), but for general purpose screening a Mass Spec is required (again, I'm not a chemist).

your mileage may vary.
 
DemonTrich

DemonTrich

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I would handle all the testing. With one other guy "knowing how to do it. I' sure anal about the way thing need and should be done. I used to work on 250k-4 mill $ vehicles.
 
Cyclopath

Cyclopath

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That GC is not an unreasonable place to start, and so long as the operator gives a couple of fucks about what they're doing, it will give reliable potency results.

OR requires statistics to prove that each operator is reliable, as well as stats to prove the lab as a whole is good to go. Along with competency at ID'ing several compounds from a variety of starting materials.

Each method has to be validated, and that seems to mean you've got to be able to solve the same problem two different ways & prove you always get the same answer. I believe you can also purchase "validated methods" and last time I looked at it SRI had data on validation on their web site. I also notice they have the proposed CA rules (in case that's relevant)

The real problem starts when you run into a matrix (<--whatever the cannabinods are in) that you've never seen before. What do you do? A trained analytical chemist has years of relevant knowledge & experience they can draw upon to solve the problem. You might find someone else who has written up the solution, but more likely they're too busy testing cannabis to be helping their competitors. Restek, who are making a killing selling to cannabis labs, often have useful information, but I found it was often for folks with higher end equipment.

Just like extraction is a moving target, testing is as well. Customers will bring you cannabinoids in forms you never dreamed of, and state requirements will continue to evolve. I have no idea what rules look like in your neck of the woods...here, lab testing was required a couple of years before anyone looked to see if the labs had any clue what they were doing.

Starting with a single machine and upgrading equipment and personal as you go has worked for many a processor. So I don't see why it wouldn't work for a testing lab. What I saw here was that labs unable to wrap their heads around certification usually sold rather than folding, so it doesn't seem like a bad investment strategy.
 
DemonTrich

DemonTrich

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We have already talked about more machines as we see fit.
 
Cyclopath

Cyclopath

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@Cyclopath
We are also exploring other gc brands. We don' want to drop 15k on a yugo version of gs. We want a quality lasting one.

When I looked at the problem 3 or 4 years ago, doing it right looked to mean $100k. I had a buddy who was in fact an analytical chemist, and I figured having him up my sleeve, I was probably good to go.

He ended up getting into cannabis testing, so I didn't. I knew better than trying to compete with him. His starting line up included $200k worth of gear.

The big expense here was the "triple-quad" tandem mass spec that is required to identify the huge array of pesticides you might run into.

I think Agilent are the next step up as far as gear goes.

Waters have been in the Mass Spec game since the beginning. They were a little late getting into the cannabis version of SCF Extraction, but probably have the greatest breadth of knowledge as far as extraction AND analysis goes.
 
DemonTrich

DemonTrich

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There' too many hoops to jump thru for extracts. Testing seems way to go at this point.
 
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