JACKS BACK!!! Capulators new formulas.

[Capulator]

Oh yeah... preach the Gospel! Having just run the chowmix over an RDWC, I can see where Dank's enthusiasm is coming from. I ran 5 gallon buckets 2/3 full, so the plants never had much incentive to drop roots into the water, but I did regularly drop the topfeed pump into the head bucket and run the RDWC water through the coco. I was generous with watering portions throughout, specifically to provide a good nutrient base in the water. The plants loved it- may as well have been fresh nutes to them, and the composted earthworm castings and other organic amendments made to the coco all drizzled down into the RDWC as well, continually re-inoculating it with beneficial bacteria.

Dank, if you're running relatively high humidity values that may account for your plants' desire for such high EC. It sure works that way for me...



I didn't use cal-mag in RDWC and didn't see a problem, but running coco I need to add plenty, and when the plants' roots do hit the water, they seem okay with the mix.



This is exactly the direction I'm heading as well- are you running coco or chowmix in a bucket above the water?

i will be running hydroton/coco and perlite coco to compare.

 

[dankworth]

Fucking love being right.
Plants told me.
Showed me pictures and shit.
Try having a dying body for a while.
Changes things, different connections are made.

 

[Tony69]

Hey Cap, you listed 6 items in your recipe, Jacks hydro, Jacks Cal nitrate, Cacl2 (Calcium Chloride), MKP (Mono-potassium Phosphate), K2so4 (Sulfate of Potash), Epsom salt, and MOST (Micronutrients). However I noticed you also ordered MAP (Mono-ammonium phosphate) and also Magnesium Nitrate. Are you not running these in your formula? Or are they for your Bloom booster recipe?
I see ttystikk recommends a high level of Cal/Mag for use in Coco, do you have a recipe of making your own as an additive?

 

[pugliese63]

Great thread, a lot of salient information being shared. Thanks.

 

[Capulator]

Hey Cap, you listed 6 items in your recipe, Jacks hydro, Jacks Cal nitrate, Cacl2 (Calcium Chloride), MKP (Mono-potassium Phosphate), K2so4 (Sulfate of Potash), Epsom salt, and MOST (Micronutrients). However I noticed you also ordered MAP (Mono-ammonium phosphate) and also Magnesium Nitrate. Are you not running these in your formula? Or are they for your Bloom booster recipe?
I see ttystikk recommends a high level of Cal/Mag for use in Coco, do you have a recipe of making your own as an additive?

yeah add MAP if you want to make your own MOAB.

Although the formula I detailed in the beginning of this thread is working just great, I realized that adding Protekt is fucking with my K. Duh!

So I tweaked the formula a little and have been using it on a newer batch of plants. This is for veg and weeks 1-4 of bloom.

Jacks hydro: 2.7 grams/gal
CaNo3: 2.8 grams/gal
MKP: 0.2 grams per gallon
MOST: .005 grams per gallon
K2SO4 0-0-50 : 0.5 grams per gallon
CaCl2: .2 grams/gal
Silica: 5ml/ gal.
Epsom salts: 0.5 grams/gal

this gives me something like:

150N
49 P
258K
58 Mg
150 Ca
97 S

I would run this at 80% until they got in to the flower room with more light, then I would run as normal. I will be trying this in a few days on the colombian and the white fire I have ready to transplant from cutting within the next day or two.

 

[Quantrill]

any observations on the level of chloride you have in your nutrient solution?

 

[dankworth]

Fucking love being right.
Plants told me.
Showed me pictures and shit.
Try having a dying body for a while.
Changes things, different connections are made.

Sorry bout that, guys, dealing with a whole lot of bitterness right now.

 

[ttystikk]

Sorry bout that, guys, dealing with a whole lot of bitterness right now.

No apology necessary- after all, the plants DID tell you, right? I'm stupid and don't understand plant-speak very well yet, so I'm stuck with reading and putting things together that way. Any way works fine as long as the results are good and the process can be refined over time with feedback gained through repetition, right?

 

[ttystikk]

Hey Cap, you listed 6 items in your recipe, Jacks hydro, Jacks Cal nitrate, Cacl2 (Calcium Chloride), MKP (Mono-potassium Phosphate), K2so4 (Sulfate of Potash), Epsom salt, and MOST (Micronutrients). However I noticed you also ordered MAP (Mono-ammonium phosphate) and also Magnesium Nitrate. Are you not running these in your formula? Or are they for your Bloom booster recipe?
I see ttystikk recommends a high level of Cal/Mag for use in Coco, do you have a recipe of making your own as an additive?

I want to emphasize the critical importance of high relative humidity levels- or to be more precise, low Vapor Pressure Deficit- in these discussions about relative EC strength; if I ran an open room and had low RH, I wouldn't need as much cal-mag, and my overall EC better not ever get over 1.6. Because the room is sealed and RH is high (and fwiw, the rest of the room's parameters are pushing hard, too; 75+ watts per square foot of HPS, temps in the low 80s, CO2 at 800-1200ppm) I found that any less than 10mg/gal of cal-mag was leading directly to deficiencies. This phenomenon is not limited to cal-mag; the overall EC has to be higher- often by 50% or more- to properly feed plants to allow them to grow this fast.

 

[Capulator]

any observations on the level of chloride you have in your nutrient solution?

can you tell me? I use 98% CaCl2. Fatman told me that it basically worked out to 1ppm of Ca per .01 gram. I use non chlorinated water, so whatever the CaCl2 is adding in as far as chloride goes is my ppm. I was too lazy to do the math and figure it all out with the periodical chart, %'s, etc..

EDIT: I had above 0.7 grams CaCl2, but it was supposed to be 0.2. sorry. Its been changed.

 

[Quantrill]

CaCl2 is 36% Calcium and 64% Chloride, so if whatyou have is the anhydrous 98% Calcium Chloride, you have a product with 35% calcium and 63% chloride.

0.2 gram of this in one gallon final volume solution gives you 18ppm calcium and 33ppm Chloride.

your typo is what piqued my curiosity, cause that had you just over 100ppm chloride and I was wanting to know how that was treating you, cause thats on the high side of things.

just because you have non-chlorinated water does not mean you have no chloride in it. Most likely you have some in your source water also.

Chlorine and chloride, are not really the same thing.

 

[HG23]

Hey cap, have you ever considered that using all nitrate nitrogen can cause your media ph to rise? I've been reading more and more into it lately and am just curious because I think it may have something to do with what appears to be late stage cal deficiency and necrotic leaves since switching to jacks.

 

[squiggly]

CaCl2 is 36% Calcium and 64% Chloride, so if whatyou have is the anhydrous 98% Calcium Chloride, you have a product with 35% calcium and 63% chloride.

0.2 gram of this in one gallon final volume solution gives you 18ppm calcium and 33ppm Chloride.

your typo is what piqued my curiosity, cause that had you just over 100ppm chloride and I was wanting to know how that was treating you, cause thats on the high side of things.

just because you have non-chlorinated water does not mean you have no chloride in it. Most likely you have some in your source water also.

Chlorine and chloride, are not really the same thing.

This is true--while chloride is not "toxic" to organisms, per se, (chlorine is) it can cause severe ionic disturbance about membranes. Many biological systems require that a narrowly ranged charge gradient be maintained across membranes. Despite the obvious osmotic issue this could contribute to--this also has the potential to severely limit signaling in plants and microherd (on a species to species basis, at their relative limits of course).

 

[Capulator]

Hey cap, have you ever considered that using all nitrate nitrogen can cause your media ph to rise? I've been reading more and more into it lately and am just curious because I think it may have something to do with what appears to be late stage cal deficiency and necrotic leaves since switching to jacks.

My pH does not rise much at all.... unless I am underfeeding sometimes. Can you post some of yoru reading here? what kind of system are you running?

 

[Capulator]

CaCl2 is 36% Calcium and 64% Chloride, so if whatyou have is the anhydrous 98% Calcium Chloride, you have a product with 35% calcium and 63% chloride.

0.2 gram of this in one gallon final volume solution gives you 18ppm calcium and 33ppm Chloride.

your typo is what piqued my curiosity, cause that had you just over 100ppm chloride and I was wanting to know how that was treating you, cause thats on the high side of things.

just because you have non-chlorinated water does not mean you have no chloride in it. Most likely you have some in your source water also.

Chlorine and chloride, are not really the same thing.

Does RO filter out chloride from the tap?

 

[Quantrill]

yes

 

[Capulator]

yes

then I guess I am running about 33ppm Cl in the solution!

 

[evu80]

yeah add MAP if you want to make your own MOAB.

Although the formula I detailed in the beginning of this thread is working just great, I realized that adding Protekt is fucking with my K. Duh!

in what ways was the Protekt affecting your K? I noticed you went from 1 mil to 5 mil of silica. How does this help if Protekt/silica was adversely affecting your crop

 

[HG23]

evu, I think he's saying he forgot to account for the added K in Protekt when he calculated his ionic ppms.

Cap, here's a quote from an article that illustrates what I mean:

"The form of nitrogen in your fertilizer is what causes substrate pH to decrease or increase. Nitrogen is the most important pH-controlling ion because it is the only element required by plants that can be supplied as both a positive cation (ammonium: NH4+) or a negative anion (nitrate: NO3-) and accounts for more than half of the nutrient ions taken up by the plant. Fertilizers high in ammonium have an acidifying effect and cause substrate pH to decrease, and the opposite is true for fertilizers high in nitrate (Table 1).

When ammonium (or other positive cations) is taken up by the plant, a positive charge enters the root. Plants must remain electrochemically neutral, and thus the roots secrete positively charged H+, which reduces the pH (Figure 2). When nitrate (or other negative anions) is absorbed, the roots balance the negative charge by absorbing H+. As more nitrate is absorbed, more H+ is removed from the soil solution, and the substrate pH increases (Figure 3, see page 46)." Source

I know maybe nitrogen may not account for half of the nutrient ion uptake like this article says, but I'm thinking it still probably has an effect. I just got done with my first run in straight H&G coco and am getting ready to try some 50/50 chow with hydroton.

Spurr used to talk about this a lot, I think he used something called the pour-through methond to test media ph but I'm not sure what that is exactly. And I'm pretty sure the media ph is independent and not too highly effected by whatever ph you water at.

 

[Capulator]

evu, I think he's saying he forgot to account for the added K in Protekt when he calculated his ionic ppms.

Cap, here's a quote from an article that illustrates what I mean:

"The form of nitrogen in your fertilizer is what causes substrate pH to decrease or increase. Nitrogen is the most important pH-controlling ion because it is the only element required by plants that can be supplied as both a positive cation (ammonium: NH4+) or a negative anion (nitrate: NO3-) and accounts for more than half of the nutrient ions taken up by the plant. Fertilizers high in ammonium have an acidifying effect and cause substrate pH to decrease, and the opposite is true for fertilizers high in nitrate (Table 1).

When ammonium (or other positive cations) is taken up by the plant, a positive charge enters the root. Plants must remain electrochemically neutral, and thus the roots secrete positively charged H+, which reduces the pH (Figure 2). When nitrate (or other negative anions) is absorbed, the roots balance the negative charge by absorbing H+. As more nitrate is absorbed, more H+ is removed from the soil solution, and the substrate pH increases (Figure 3, see page 46)." Source

I know maybe nitrogen may not account for half of the nutrient ion uptake like this article says, but I'm thinking it still probably has an effect. I just got done with my first run in straight H&G coco and am getting ready to try some 50/50 chow with hydroton.

Spurr used to talk about this a lot, I think he used something called the pour-through methond to test media ph but I'm not sure what that is exactly. And I'm pretty sure the media ph is independent and not too highly effected by whatever ph you water at.

This makes sense. However, I am pretty sure that ammonium nitrate is best in soil applications. In jacks (and I will call them to be sure), I would think they would have included buffers in the formula to keep pH from swinging all over the place. From experience, mine stays really stable. NItrate nitrogen is what the plant ultimately consumes. Ammonium nitrate has to be broken down by bacteria before it can be taken up by the plant. More of a "slow release" nitrogen if you will. The high % of nitrate nitrogen in hydro formulas is readily available to plants. Plants in hydro do not need to rely on breaking shit down so much. They want it right away, and hydro make it all available to the plant... thats why the growth is so explosive when everything is just right. Kind of like putting a hungry man with a bucket of change in front of a vending machine (soil) vs throwing him in to an all you can eat buffet (hydro).

check out this article on N:

in what ways was the Protekt affecting your K? I noticed you went from 1 mil to 5 mil of silica. How does this help if Protekt/silica was adversely affecting your crop

Silica just adds K. What I meant was the silica was messing up my N:K ratio.