phytochrome manipulation

[Desertboy]

Anybody no about BLB incandescent black light bulbs for a far red source..


Another little factoid about Black incandescent bulbs.. They have a time factor of .9

As a comparison.

Indoor darkness has a 1.0 time factor. 12 hours of darkness = 12 hours of darkness to the plants.

Outdoors at night time has a time factor of .8 .... It has multiple spectrum's darkness and far red. Where as indoor darkness is just that, absolute darkness.

So lets do some math here.. This is how outdoor night time gets 12.5 hours of work done in 10 hours.. Outdoors has a nighttime time factor of .8
The math goes like this. Take the number of hours and divided by it's time factor.

10 hours of outdoor darkness divided by it's .8 (time factor)= 12.5 hours of darkness. So plants outdoors think they are getting 12.5 hours of darkness when in reality they are receiving 10 hours of darkness and 14 hours of light. That's the start of the flowering season outdoors. Remember nights are getting longer each day that goes by, but when it gets to this point. Plants outdoors start to flower.

This is why people think they can run 14 hours of (lights on time) and 10 hours of darkness using 730 far red during the dark period.. And for the most part it's true you can.. It's not the most efficient use of electricity. But it does work.
Here is the catch

The problem that people run into indoors using this method and don't realize. Outdoors has something else that is happening as well.. Not just the Emerson effect. This is very important in making this work indoors.

Outdoors the BLUE light is not present pass the 12 hour mark when the flowering season starts (because of the earths tilting away from the sun).. Yes it's different all over the planet I understand. Just making an example here.
This is a fact for 90% of strains: Blue light must not be present beyond the 12 hour mark.

So to make this work indoors.. BLUE light can't be seen by the plants after the 12 hour mark, even if the 12 hours of critical darkness is met by using 730 far red(Emerson effect) and a 10 hour night time schedule.

Yes HPS has a bunch of BLUE light in it.. The method above wont work well if the HPS is on past the 12 hour mark in the beginning of flowering..

Of course there is an exception to this rule.. After flowers develop the blue light receptors are blocked for the most part and the plant will continue to flower if the HPS is on after the 12 hour mark.. (hence why you see some growers talk about turning the lights up in the middle of flowering then back down at the end). But that only works if you let the flower develop first then ramp up the HPS (on time).. Again not a very efficient use of electricity.. And yes your girls will fatten up a little bit but they will also ripen later after doing this.. Not a far trade off if you ask me.

I will do a thread on red light and how one can use red and far red to flower using 24 hours of lighting. Just testing out a new setup first .

As far as flashing or 15 mins only of far red.. well I have never gotten that to work... Lets look at the numbers for 15 mins of 730 shall we..

In order for 15 mins of 730 to work.. The time factor for that spectrum would have to be .1 lets do the math.

15 mins divided by .1 time factor = 2.5 hours of critical darkness.

If I'm not mistaken. A fully saturated area of 730 only brings the time factor to .7.. Yes it's fast, but not .1 fast.. lol

So lets do the math for a .7 time factor

1.75 hours of (on time) @ .7 time factor = 2.5 hours of critical darkness given back. Make sense.

A fully saturated area @ .7 would need 1.75 hours of on time to get 2.5 hours of critical darkness back. So as one can see doing the math. You need at a minimum of 1.75 hours of fully saturated 730 just to make the 2.5 hours back.. 15 mins or a flash my ass. You might be able to get the prf to pr to change but that's all you will get.. Plants require at a minimum 12 hours of critical darkness not just the prf to pr to change in order to flower not to mention the absence of BLUE light. yes it's confusing as hell. Sorry
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I think that will cause enough debate .. :banghead:

I think you're a little early it's not April 1st yet.

See red light interrupts the dark cycle so using red all night is ridiculous. 470nm blue is enough to wake the plants up even without 660nm but there is stuff in the upper UV levels that might of interest.

links to all your sources to back up your claims please as well as to those "incandesent" lights

notice the flash another term for pulse and notice the shortened critical period.

http://www.trilight.co.uk/philips-greenpower-led-flowering-lamp-far-red.php

This is one of my FR lamps they're not expensive

Look what happens to Phytochrome in the red band Pr being plant awake.

 

[dogznova]

Ok.. First red light does a lot of things i'm sure your not aware of yet.. Red light interrupting the darkness is only half correct.. It depends on which spectrum of red we are talking about.

730 spectrum is Faster then SID (standard indoor darkness) and is present outdoors at night. So do you mind explaining to me how it interrupts the darkness. It don't! It speeds it up. If 730 which is (red) interrupts the darkness.. How does it work out doors at night time?

660nm a (pure red) spectrum on the other hand is a little different. If used incorrectly during the darkness.. Yes it will interrupt the critical dark period.
Notice I said if used incorrectly. Because if used correctly it will not interrupt the darkness.

You say you want links about what.. Black inc bulbs being used as a night time far red source.. Well that's gonna be kind of hard since there is probably only a few growers that even know that it can be used as a far red source.. But remember I said 730 LED works better just cost more..

Incandescent[edit]


100 watt incandescent black light bulb.
A black light may also be formed by simply using Wood's glass as the envelope for a common incandescent bulb. This was the method that was used to create the very first black light sources. Although incandescent black light bulbs are a cheaper alternative to fluorescent tubes, they are exceptionally inefficient at producing UV light since most of the light emitted by the filament is visible light which must be blocked. Due to its black body spectrum, an incandescent light radiates less than 0.1% of its energy as UV light. Incandescent UV bulbs, due to the necessary absorption of the visible light, become very hot during use. This heat is, in fact, encouraged in such bulbs, since a hotter filament increases the proportion of UVA in the black-body radiation emitted. This high running-temperature drastically reduces the life of the lamp, however, from a typical 1000 hours to around 100 hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_light

Now that link doesn't talk about what the HEAT spectrum given off by that light bulb is.. But you can bet your azz it's far red and can be used during the dark period.

OK another link.
Output spectrum is biased towards the red
The output spectrum of incandescent light, halogen or regular, is biased heavily toward the red. Non-halogen bulbs have a colour temperature of 2700K, while halogen bulbs have a colour temperature of 3000K - they are a slightly more whitish light. Both have a CRI of 100. A diagram of the spectrum looks rather like a triangle, starting with almost no output in the green and rising at an almost linear rate to the far red and infra-red. Although incandescent bulbs are very inefficient, they are a very good source of near and far red light which is certainly very important. They are sometimes used as supplements in systems which are deficient in the red end of the spectrum..

The above link is just one of many examples of clear inc's being used as a far red source (during day light hours).

Ok now on to the good stuff. This is the famous PAD manual. PAD stands for Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness. If your not familiar with that term.. It's spectrum's that can be used during the dark period. This manual was only online at my space (yes I no). But at the time when it was put up online. That was the place that the owners of Temporal Photonics wanted to put it.. I don't no why but they did. But as you know or maybe you don't, my space was sold and all content that was uploaded by members was removed.. But I have the manual.. It's approx 20 pages long. I will post it in here.. But be aware, your gonna have a lot of questions after reading it.. Just saying. Maybe you wont.


I was gonna wait to put this up when I started my "How to flower using 24 hours of light" thread. But what the heck..


This is the elusive PAD manual.. Enjoy

 

[dogznova]

The rest of it..

 

[caveman4.20]

Ok.. First red light does a lot of things i'm sure your not aware of yet.. Red light interrupting the darkness is only half correct.. It depends on which spectrum of red we are talking about.

730 spectrum is Faster then SID (standard indoor darkness) so how can it interrupt it.. It don't! It speeds it up. If 730 which is (red) interrupts the darkness.. How does it work out doors at night time?

660nm a (pure red) spectrum on the other hand is a little different. If used incorrectly during the darkness.. Yes it will interrupt the critical dark period.
Notice I said if used incorrectly. Because if used correctly it will not interrupt the darkness.

You say you want links about what.. Black inc bulbs being used as a night time far red source.. Well that's gonna be kind of hard since there is probably only a few growers that even no that it can be used as a far red source.. But remember I said 730 LED works better just cost more that's all..

Incandescent[edit]


100 watt incandescent black light bulb.
A black light may also be formed by simply using Wood's glass as the envelope for a common incandescent bulb. This was the method that was used to create the very first black light sources. Although incandescent black light bulbs are a cheaper alternative to fluorescent tubes, they are exceptionally inefficient at producing UV light since most of the light emitted by the filament is visible light which must be blocked. Due to its black body spectrum, an incandescent light radiates less than 0.1% of its energy as UV light. Incandescent UV bulbs, due to the necessary absorption of the visible light, become very hot during use. This heat is, in fact, encouraged in such bulbs, since a hotter filament increases the proportion of UVA in the black-body radiation emitted. This high running-temperature drastically reduces the life of the lamp, however, from a typical 1000 hours to around 100 hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_light

Now that link doesn't talk about what the HEAT spectrum given off by that light bulb is.. But you can bet your ass it's far red and can be used during the dark period.

OK another link.
Output spectrum is biased towards the red
The output spectrum of incandescent light, halogen or regular, is biased heavily toward the red. Non-halogen bulbs have a colour temperature of 2700K, while halogen bulbs have a colour temperature of 3000K - they are a slightly more whitish light. Both have a CRI of 100. A diagram of the spectrum looks rather like a triangle, starting with almost no output in the green and rising at an almost linear rate to the far red and infra-red. Although incandescent bulbs are very inefficient, they are a very good source of near and far red light which is certainly very important. They are sometimes used as supplements in systems which are deficient in the red end of the spectrum..

The above link is just one of many examples of clear inc's being used as a far red source (during day light hours).

Ok on to the good stuff. This is the famous PAD manual. PAD stands for Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness. If your not familiar with that term.. it's spectrum's that can be used during the dark period. This manual was only online at my space (yes I no). But at the time when it was put up online. That was the place that the owners of Temporal Photonics wanted to put it.. I don't no why but they did. But as you know or maybe you don't, my space was sold and all content that was uploaded by members was removed.. But I have the manual.. It's approx 20 pages long. I will post it in here.. But be aware, your gonna have a lot of questions after reading it.. Just saying. Maybe you wont.


I was gonna wait to put this up when I started my "How to flower using 24 hours of light" thread. But what the heck..


This is the elusive PAD manual.. Enjoy


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I have not read this yet but I will first I wanted to ask if pad is fake moon light or outdoor darkness with no moonlight? Aw shit I'll just read what I can for now lol

 

[dogznova]

No it's not fake moon.. The moon by the way gives off far red light.. (hence the reason why there's a few of them in the fall time).. Just sayin

 

[dogznova]

There's a problem with the incandescents--they're being discontinued, one wattage group at a time. Pretty soon the only incandescent we'll be able to see in action will be the Livermore Light Bulb.

You've heard of the Livermore Light Bulb, right? It's been burning continuously for OVER 100 years. Check it out: http://www.centennialbulb.org/cam.htm

You've spun my noggin' with the math. :eek:

Yes I have a stock pile of them.. 100w Clear inc's:banghead:

 

[dogznova]

Photoperiodism in a Short-Day Plant

Experiments with the cocklebur have shown that the term short-day is something of a misnomer; what the cocklebur needs is a sufficiently long night.

• Cockleburs (adapted to the latitude of Michigan) will flower only if they have been kept in the dark for at least 8.5 hours — the critical period. (A and B).
• Interruption of an otherwise long night by light — red (660 nm) rays are particularly effective — prevents flowering. (C) unless
• it is followed by irradiation with far red (730 nm) light (D).
  See spectrum of electromagnetic radiation.
• An intense exposure to far red light at the start of the night reduces the dark requirement by 2 hours (E).

These response are mediated by phytochrome.

Pay close attention to the highlighted BLUE words above.

*Note: The experiment above was not done with MJ plants. Again just saying, not hating.

 

[Thoth]

I found this where this guy explains some of it....what are u planing to do click if u dont mind me asking.


Florigen isnt well understood. But we do know it is effected by the type of phytochrome. Phytochrome is a pigment/flourophore that changes its type depending on whether it recieves red or infrared light. Red light converts phytochrome to the version that stops flowering. IR makes phytochrome the flowering type. Also naturally phtochrome will convert from the nonflowering to flowering type on its own. Exposed to any kind of light or not. This is why long dark periods promote flowering. All sativa and indica strains have this phytochrome complex. But diff strains need less darkness to flower so if you bred the right strains you could get a strain that would flower OPTIMALLY at 14 hrs. You can get most plants to flower at 14 hours light but not optimally, they take much longer.

Forgive me if this has already been disucssed further on in the thread, I've not read it all yet (plus the link failed for me), but is florigen not simply a hypothetical hormone? AFAIK it has not actually been proven to exist yet. If that is the case, then how can we know that it is effected by the type of phytochrome? Or is that just a theoretical assumption?

 

[dogznova]

I think you're a little early it's not April 1st yet

Wow!! Nice April fools joke reference there.. But no, none of the stuff I post is a joke.

I guess to be fair... Is the stuff you are posting a joke?

 

[Desertboy]

I didn't realise it's the Martian method lol well good luck with that I have no doubt you shall post a proper diary (With a control grow of course side by side) I've scored some clones so I shall do a phytochrome manipulation diary/thread I would suggest you start a new thread called the Martian method rather than dragging down the phytochrome thread with non phytochrome reactions.

I have 280, 305, 315, 350, 380, 400, 420, 455, 475, 515, 600, 630, 660 & 680m led's now so I'm pretty covered on any possible combination of lighting you could ever want to use I've just got to decide now how I want to wire them up I got 750w of them so no shortage of supplemental lighting.

Personally I believe the martian method to be a hoax. I am not the only person!

My plan is to run 2 identical tent setups 1 without flashing FR and one with on 16/8 then see how quickly (If at all, might need to go 14/10) the FR tent goes into flower with identical clones. To prove FR phytochrome reaction in cannabis I need to get the tent with FR to go into flower whilst the tent without FR stays in veg and the only difference being the flashing FR lamp.

I'm happy to supply a surplus FR lamp to EU based member to confirm my results as for any experiment to have scientific basis you need repeatable results carried out by independent 3rd parties anything less is just tittle tattle.

 

[dogznova]

I didn't realise it's the Martian method lol well good luck with that I have no doubt you shall post a proper diary (With a control grow of course side by side) I've scored some clones so I shall do a phytochrome manipulation diary/thread I would suggest you start a new thread called the Martian method rather than dragging down the phytochrome thread with non phytochrome reactions.

I have 280, 305, 315, 350, 380, 400, 420, 455, 475, 515, 600, 630, 660 & 680m led's now so I'm pretty covered on any possible combination of lighting you could ever want to use I've just got to decide now how I want to wire them up I got 750w of them so no shortage of supplemental lighting.
Personally I believe the martian method to be a hoax. I am not the only person!

My plan is to run 2 identical tent setups 1 without flashing FR and one with on 16/8 then see how quickly (If at all, might need to go 14/10) the FR tent goes into flower with identical clones. To prove FR phytochrome reaction in cannabis I need to get the tent with FR to go into flower whilst the tent without FR stays in veg and the only difference being the flashing FR lamp.

I'm happy to supply a surplus FR lamp to EU based member to confirm my results as for any experiment to have scientific basis you need repeatable results carried out by independent 3rd parties anything less is just tittle tattle.

Are you for real... Ok that was an intelligent conversation.. Good luck

 

[Desertboy]

simple I'll do a diary you do a diary and we can compare that's not hard is it if you believe in something you should be willing to back it up I believe in phytochromes Prf-Pr I'm willing to back it up.

I might try the martian method after all I believe it be a hoax but that does not mean it is so the best way for me to prove it either way is to try I doubt there's any led's I could need that I do not have.

I have a shit load of blacklight fluros if needed.

I see your active in most martian method threads I also see lanky plants suffering from over exposure to FR and very little to make me go wow more wonder why any one would want to grow such lanky plants with such poor density buds.

Doubleds threads made me go wow, the collesium grow on OG made me go wow martian method grows make me go why?

Phytochrome red flash wakes up the plant fr makes it go to sleep (Gross simplification) I wonder why you would highlight in blue something we already knew and in fact the whole thread was about and that disagreed with everything you were saying! It's hard to have an intelligent conversation when you're points are contradictory. I haven't got the energy to breakdown everything you said it's just easier to show results and let others judge for themselves.

Phytochromes are a balance it's possible to run red at night if you have enough FR to keep the majority in the Pr state but the question is does that increase yield and is it worth it looking at the martian method grows on google the answer seems No!

 

[dogznova]

simple I'll do a diary you do a diary and we can compare that's not hard is it if you believe in something you should be willing to back it up I believe in phytochromes Prf-Pr I'm willing to back it up.

I might try the martian method after all I believe it be a hoax but that does not mean it is so the best way for me to prove it either way is to try I doubt there's any led's I could need that I do not have.

I have a shit load of blacklight fluros if needed.

I see your active in most martian method threads I also see lanky plants suffering from over exposure to FR and very little to make me go wow more wonder why any one would want to grow such lanky plants with such poor density buds.

Doubleds threads made me go wow, the collesium grow on OG made me go wow martian method grows make me go why?

Phytochrome red flash wakes up the plant fr makes it go to sleep (Gross simplification) I wonder why you would highlight in blue something we already knew and in fact the whole thread was about and that disagreed with everything you were saying!

Well first to correctly do the so called "Martian Method" One first has to understand it..

And basaed on the statement right here..

I have a shit load of blacklight fluros if needed.

Your a long ways from understanding it.. Sorry

I don't have to do a side by side.. Been there done that.. Feel free tho

I currently flower under 24 hours of light right now, from day one of flowering right through the end of flowering.

Let me ask you...... Did it feel good to bash me.. I asked you one simple questions in the post I made above.. But yet you didn't seem to answer it..

What gives?

 

[dogznova]

Yes your correct. This is tall and lanky. And this was guessing at the time factor. Wait, there I go again talking over your head.. Sorry my bad.. But I don't think this is tall and lanky at all.

 

[Desertboy]

What question and where your proof of side by sides we want in depth diaries not a set of photos that anyone can fake!

Without proof you're just talking hot air as am I! so what I'm saying is lets take this to the next level and actually try to prove in a scientific way I'm offering free lights so we can get multiple proofs of my theory I'm willing to offer the spectrums needed for martian method so we can have a fair test. I cannot supply US/Canadians as my power drivers are 50hz and 220v-240v but any one in EU is fine.

Of course I don't need blacklights but I thought I'd offer so there's no point of the spectrum I haven't got covered and 1 of the test grows I saw using martian method jammed blacklights in.

That's not particular big cola for 5 weeks if running martian method means I need to decrease my yield by 50% then it's a crazy method. Is the nute def that plants suffering Martian method related? If not that could why the cola is 50% smaller than it should be I would suggest boning up on feeding techniques first.

and meaningless without a diary not hard to fake and why would you fake it one reason I can think of is your selling LED's I've seen so many LED faked grows over the years to increase sales I find it hard to believe anything I see LED these days and I just bought 750w of the fuckers lol.

 

[dogznova]

OK.. well that was a 400 watt HPS setup.. No the photo wasn't doctored lol.

We can stop right here.. Cuz the method is not about yield at all.. I'm not a commercial grower. I take quality over quantity any day.. But that's just me, not knocking the commercial grower at all.. Just sayin.

Any way the question I asked was in the first paragraph of the post I made .. Right before you bashed me..

LOL I sell nothing.

The nute deficiency was strain and soil related.

 

[dogznova]

Wait.. lol I had to go back and look at that pic.. I see a little tip burn.. But the color your seeing on the leaves is the light from the red cfl.. Not a def.

I was mistaken when I answered the post. I did have a nute deficiency in a different run.. But not that run..

But again.. Thanks for the bash tho.. :banghead:

 

[Desertboy]

I'll try to answer you properly but I've got no time for the next week a tree branch (We had severe storms in UK yesterday) fell through the roof of my grow room last night and I've got some major repairs to get myself secure I've not got time to go through everything and my brain is not in the right place at the moment I spent all night taking grow tents down and removing kit so I can get the builders in.

I was probably a bit harsh I didn't mean to come off like that we have a difference of opinion but at the same time I'm sure we have a lot of common ground I was a bit too much of cock in my last replies so I apologise your opinions are just as valid as mine.

Are you US/Canada or EU dogznova?

 

[dogznova]

ok starting over sounds like the best idea yet.. So here goes, Hi I go by the name dogznova. I think I might have some information that may or may not be of intrest to you in your quest for phytochrome minuplation.

But first we have to start with line C on the cockleburrs chart. Where it claims that inturpting the darkness with 660nm will prevent flowering..

I can show you a cheap and inexpensive way of debunking or conferming the (line C) study.. One anyone can do from home, no special tools required.

If we can start there, I think you and I will be typing back and forth for quite sometime, and not in a bad way. In a very constructive way. It will take some effort on your end, but not that much. But once you see that (line C) is or is not correct. I believe we can go from there.

What do you say, you down for starting on line C?

Anyway Dude that sux about your flowering room.. I wish no ill on a fellow grower. I love each and every one like my family.. Heck we are all family. Gods speed to you sir.

My internet connection seems to be real slow right now, not sure why so i'll rap this post up.

Yes I live in the US.. I run all my LED gear on 220-240. But I dont need any free LED's I got over 2,000 dollars worth of them lol. I will get into the complications with LED's and PAD lighting in a future post. But I do aperciate the offer tho, I really do.. I bet there is alot of farmers here that would love to take you up on your offer tho and help out with these experiments..

Wait! Now dont get me wrong.. 730nm LED's are in short suply around my house.. If that's the LED's we are talking about.. Well hell I'm in for sure.. I already have some far red 730 LED's but in my line of growing, one can never have enough.. lol

But I think for now we need to address Line C in the chart..

Now hurry up and get that tree limb out of your life and lets put REAL world results in that growing tool box of yours.. K

 

[dogznova]

Forgive me if this has already been disucssed further on in the thread, I've not read it all yet (plus the link failed for me), but is florigen not simply a hypothetical hormone? AFAIK it has not actually been proven to exist yet. If that is the case, then how can we know that it is effected by the type of phytochrome? Or is that just a theoretical assumption?

The phytochrome-mediated response to photoperiod occurs in the leaves. Flowering occurs in the apical meristems. A signal, called florigen, connects the two.

The Signal to Flower

Flowering involves the conversion of the apical meristem into a floral meristem, from which all the parts of the flower will be produced.

Signals that change the fate of the apical meristem include:

• • • maturity of the plant;
    • temperature;
    • the arrival of the plant hormone gibberellin;
    • and, for many plants, photoperiod — the relative length of day and night.

hope that helps