phytochrome manipulation

[Desertboy]

You must have found a typo, my DEEP Red Boosters are 660/680-690nm. The FAR RED lamps are 730nm, The Flower Initiator. I am trying to find the typo right now.

I thought it was a typo as you have 730nm in your avatar, I assume you've found and changed it now as it now reads Deep Red. I've got 3 FR lamps 720, 730 and 740nm (3 different manufacturers) I would think ant of them should work weel I do notice the 720nm has more visible light and 740nm the last which makes sense.

The lamps I use I get from a lamp supplier who supplies to indoor commercial gardens mine are used generally for strawberries in large scale setups I was told 17w's is enough to cover 5m2 floor space with FR you don't need much at all.

It's wrong to think of it as a flower initiator as it largely depends on short day or long day plants and the other interesting question is does it make any difference to day neutral plants. Phytochromes are still very misunderstood and there's a lot more going on than first meets the eye.

"It is known that although phytochromes are synthesized in the cytosol and the Pr form is localized there, the Pfr form, when generated by light illumination, is translocated to the cell nucleus. This implies a role of phytochrome in controlling gene expression, and many genes are known to be regulated by phytochrome, but the exact mechanism has still to be fully discovered. It has been proposed that phytochrome, in the Pfr form, may act as a kinase, and it has been demonstrated that phytochrome in the Pfr form can interact directly with transcription factors."

For cannabis though we can simplify and consider it a flower initiator (Non autos of course)

I wonder if we grew auto's with no far red and on 24/7 light regime (Would have to be LED as HPS, Fluro's and LEP's all emit FR) we might be able to inhibit the initial flower response opening up possibilities on an auto mum I base this on absolutely nothing but conjecture :)

 

[Seamaiden]

I can aim you at some YouTube videos, is that OK here?

Absolutely.

 

[growlights]

I thought it was a typo as you have 730nm in your avatar, I assume you've found and changed it now as it now reads Deep Red. I've got 3 FR lamps 720, 730 and 740nm (3 different manufacturers) I would think ant of them should work weel I do notice the 720nm has more visible light and 740nm the last which makes sense.

The lamps I use I get from a lamp supplier who supplies to indoor commercial gardens mine are used generally for strawberries in large scale setups I was told 17w's is enough to cover 5m2 floor space with FR you don't need much at all.

It's wrong to think of it as a flower initiator as it largely depends on short day or long day plants and the other interesting question is does it make any difference to day neutral plants. Phytochromes are still very misunderstood and there's a lot more going on than first meets the eye.

"It is known that although phytochromes are synthesized in the cytosol and the Pr form is localized there, the Pfr form, when generated by light illumination, is translocated to the cell nucleus. This implies a role of phytochrome in controlling gene expression, and many genes are known to be regulated by phytochrome, but the exact mechanism has still to be fully discovered. It has been proposed that phytochrome, in the Pfr form, may act as a kinase, and it has been demonstrated that phytochrome in the Pfr form can interact directly with transcription factors."

For cannabis though we can simplify and consider it a flower initiator (Non autos of course)

I wonder if we grew auto's with no far red and on 24/7 light regime (Would have to be LED as HPS, Fluro's and LEP's all emit FR) we might be able to inhibit the initial flower response opening up possibilities on an auto mum I base this on absolutely nothing but conjecture :)

Yes, i took a bit, but I found the typo, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I am one guy managing many moving parts, studying science papers, following forums, developing new products and much more, so I can miss my own errors at times.

 

[growlights]

I thought it was a typo as you have 730nm in your avatar, I assume you've found and changed it now as it now reads Deep Red. I've got 3 FR lamps 720, 730 and 740nm (3 different manufacturers) I would think ant of them should work weel I do notice the 720nm has more visible light and 740nm the last which makes sense.

The lamps I use I get from a lamp supplier who supplies to indoor commercial gardens mine are used generally for strawberries in large scale setups I was told 17w's is enough to cover 5m2 floor space with FR you don't need much at all.

It's wrong to think of it as a flower initiator as it largely depends on short day or long day plants and the other interesting question is does it make any difference to day neutral plants. Phytochromes are still very misunderstood and there's a lot more going on than first meets the eye.

"It is known that although phytochromes are synthesized in the cytosol and the Pr form is localized there, the Pfr form, when generated by light illumination, is translocated to the cell nucleus. This implies a role of phytochrome in controlling gene expression, and many genes are known to be regulated by phytochrome, but the exact mechanism has still to be fully discovered. It has been proposed that phytochrome, in the Pfr form, may act as a kinase, and it has been demonstrated that phytochrome in the Pfr form can interact directly with transcription factors."

For cannabis though we can simplify and consider it a flower initiator (Non autos of course)

I wonder if we grew auto's with no far red and on 24/7 light regime (Would have to be LED as HPS, Fluro's and LEP's all emit FR) we might be able to inhibit the initial flower response opening up possibilities on an auto mum I base this on absolutely nothing but conjecture :)

I thought it was a typo as you have 730nm in your avatar, I assume you've found and changed it now as it now reads Deep Red. I've got 3 FR lamps 720, 730 and 740nm (3 different manufacturers) I would think ant of them should work weel I do notice the 720nm has more visible light and 740nm the last which makes sense.

The lamps I use I get from a lamp supplier who supplies to indoor commercial gardens mine are used generally for strawberries in large scale setups I was told 17w's is enough to cover 5m2 floor space with FR you don't need much at all.

It's wrong to think of it as a flower initiator as it largely depends on short day or long day plants and the other interesting question is does it make any difference to day neutral plants. Phytochromes are still very misunderstood and there's a lot more going on than first meets the eye.

"It is known that although phytochromes are synthesized in the cytosol and the Pr form is localized there, the Pfr form, when generated by light illumination, is translocated to the cell nucleus. This implies a role of phytochrome in controlling gene expression, and many genes are known to be regulated by phytochrome, but the exact mechanism has still to be fully discovered. It has been proposed that phytochrome, in the Pfr form, may act as a kinase, and it has been demonstrated that phytochrome in the Pfr form can interact directly with transcription factors."

For cannabis though we can simplify and consider it a flower initiator (Non autos of course)

I wonder if we grew auto's with no far red and on 24/7 light regime (Would have to be LED as HPS, Fluro's and LEP's all emit FR) we might be able to inhibit the initial flower response opening up possibilities on an auto mum I base this on absolutely nothing but conjecture :)

Yes , I have tried several spectrum, 730nm seems to get the best results, and was the factor used in some white papers I first viewed several years ago. The 730nm light was referred to as a flower initiator in that study, I like the term and used as my trademark for this product. I use the flood lamp form so these have universal indoor, outdoor, greenhouse applications and will hold up well.

I link a video here that shows results with tomatoes, which act more like a neutral than short day plant, the results are quite demonstrative. The video is a side by side grow with Induction only on one side, and Induction with addition of a Pfr Pontoon, which supplies the FAR RED at lights out and DEEP RED when lights are on.

I am trying to get some researcher at U.C Davis to try the Flower Intiator, in conjunction, with, or opposed to, 660/680nm sources I believe, based on some studies, that it may be possible to extend the day with those two, using low energy, to bring forth flowers and fruit earlier with long day plants as well. I have seen that cannabis responds well to flowering under longer days, hours, moving forward fruit formation a month or two may have similar results.

The auto flower experiments sound interesting, I can supply custom spectrum units for specific experiments.

Much to still be learned about phytochrome and other factors, I am hopeful that by supplying these discrete spectrum lamps growers and scientists will learn more and and us in even new directions.

 

[growlights]

Absolutely.

Thanks!

Here are a few videos relevant to FAR RED "experiments", I am reluctant to call these experiments any more, having seen FAR RED benefits, indoors and outdoors, repeated, first hand. Some are from my YouTube channel, as well as others.

Hybrid Light Solution: Flowers

Outdoors, 2013, 21012 comparison.
The FLOWER INITIATOR Grow - Day 36 Of Use

Growing With Mr.Tight· This is an ongoing series.

That's enough for now, don't want to go overboard.
Enjoy, if you have any questions, just ask, I might have an answer.

 

[squiggly]

moving forward fruit formation a month or two may have similar results.

I reckon it won't. In fact I think you'll get precisely the opposite effect. You're going to lose a lot of your etoliative growth already from longer day cycles--if you flip flowering genes on too early you may end up not being able to bush the plant out properly. It's going to focus on producing flowers rather than fattening up so to speak. There may, however, be some utility to this in terms of triggering flowering earlier by perhaps a day or two than you normally would (once you've got the plant to where you want it pre-stretch).

 

[growlights]

I reckon it won't. In fact I think you'll get precisely the opposite effect. You're going to lose a lot of your etoliative growth already from longer day cycles--if you flip flowering genes on too early you may end up not being able to bush the plant out properly. It's going to focus on producing flowers rather than fattening up so to speak. There may, however, be some utility to this in terms of triggering flowering earlier by perhaps a day or two than you normally would (once you've got the plant to where you want it pre-stretch).

You may be right, just an idea for another experimental approach. Perhaps forming more flowering sites could be of benefit?

Working with a designer in Wash. on a project in Alaska where foodstuffs will be grown above housing with all factors controlled: lit hours, spectrum tweaking, humidity, watering, temperature (including chilling), to see just what is possible.

I know that with the short day plants, earlier flowering and/or under longer hours outdoors and indoors yields a big improvement.

 

[chazbolin]

these three paragraphs are the idea money!

i find this part particularly fascinating : "Plants receiving 15 hours of light and 9 hours of darkness react as if they were under a lighting regime of 11 hours of darkness because of the additional two hours of active hormone"


what i find odd is the rosenthal's tone & his use of conditionals (words like may, might, should).

he is putting it out there ...but really doesn't know the answer.

i'm also wondering if any of this is either universal to all MJ plants or do some strains react better to high Pfr.

He knows the answer. He's seen the side by sides. https://picasaweb.google.com/117165142682869295633/InHouseGarden1#5838637212538872274

 

[Dr.Trichome]

Squig, you are right man. I've used 36 hrs of dark before flip to drop a week off the time it takes to initiate flowering. Works like a charm, but you lose some stretch.
However, at that point it comes to the labor intensive part of our passion to build structure and trim, prune, and train our girls to compinsate for that. All that extra work halps the rest of the time, if we're going to put all this to good use, why not use all the tools available to get the most out of it.

 

[Desertboy]

I've made an order for some LED's in various wavelengths I'll wire em up myself. I'm pretty confident I can put a plant out late April flash 660nm light at it to extend day length by converting enough Pr->Prf to keep the ratio high enough for vegetative growth. Then late July I'll starting flashing a combination of lights dusk till dawn including 730nm at various periods to force flower 2 weeks earlier than naturally. I'm pretty confident this will work and I'm betting etiolation will play be sufficient. I doubt I'll save more than 30 mins on flowering time.

If you don't know what etiolation is wiki gives you a very basic idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiolation

Prf= Phytochrome is sensitive to FR (Lights on)
Pr = Phytochrome is sensitive to 660nm (Lights off)

The graph looks backwards (it's not) to simplyfy thing think when looking at Pr that's really the amount of Prf and vice versa

Phytochrome reactions are adaptable and plants adapt to their environment the same level of phytochromes in one state inside identical clones can produce different reactions it's about balance rather than level and plants produce phytochrome and balance the ratios based on their environments as well as genetics.

1. Because phytochrome has overlapping absorption peaks even when treating with 730nm in total dark some phytochromes will be in the Prf state whilst the majority are in Pr state the only way to get all phytochromes into the Pr state is indoor grow rooms! Remember of course Pr also decays to Prf in the absence of light, this is unnatural state for plants to be in as outdoors there is nearly always some ambient night light and is probably why hermies are more common indoors through light leaks than outdoors.

2. Plants do not need all the phytochrome in Pr state to flower though only a proportion of it and that ratio is adaptable to the environment to some extent how much is up to us find out. We also nee to consider the roles of cryptochromes more.

3. It's interesting to note than at 730nm Pr absorption is very small so very little is in the Prf state yet at 660nm the Pfr absorption is relatively high which suggest a high portion of phytochrome is in Pr state even in a flowering plant more than a 1/3rd!

4. Looking at 300-400nm just on the edge of visible again overlapping phytochrome absorption there might be funky possibilities opened by having a confused plant this is not just about cannabis after all.

5. looking at ~525nm absoption is very low for either states this is the ideal lighting if you want to visit during the dark period.

Autoflowers certainly contain phytochromes what role they could play for us is open to debate.

I will obviously need several control plants which are not treated with light and it would be best to use clones so the control plants.

I will use legal plants for this not cannabis it's the only way I can grow sufficient numbers needed and feel safe in my back garden.

Any suggestions for a shortday flowering plant no cannabis?

 

[Desertboy]

I forgot to add placement of the plant is critical I believe to making this work when you want to force flower you want to catch the morning sunshine but be shaded to the later evening sunshine to increase the chance of triggering an early flower reaction once you go past the point where the plant naturally flowers you turn off you fr lamps and move the plant to a position for maximum solar insolation. To make this easy to judge it would be best to always grow a control plant with no FR to see when it goes flower.

In a grow room situation It's best to pulse the lights it only takes fractions of a second for Pr-Prf or vice versa the plant will do better from a 1 second pulse once a minute than a 5 minute pulse.

Outdoors I think you will need continuous FR preferably for 30 minutes before dusk a light diode, potentiometer will suffice for turning on the circuit then 30 minuts of FR with a pulsing 470nm led and then switching to pulsing the FR over night and on for 30 mins with pulsing 470nm just before dawn.

The circuit needed to do that is relatively simple I think though it would cost $40 to build the hardest bit is tuning the pot to turn the lights on when you want.

Cryptochrome light absorption

I can't help feeling that ~400nm might be something special it's has equal absorption rates for both Pr and Prf and high cryptochrome absorption not sure how we could use this but my gut is telling me there's something more there.


Photosynthesis light absorption

There's still significant absorption going on at 400nm by chlorophyll a which is interesting if not exploitable somehow.

If you look at phytochrome absorption at 280nm! That's Uvc it's a germicidal wavelength and causes blindness, cancers sun burns in humans so probably not good to have too much UVC potentially very useful if added to light tight air intake in line.

 

[Desertboy]

 

[Seamaiden]

Legal plant not cannabis? How about the scientific 'gold' standard of Arabidopsis?

It's taken YEARS, but you're touching on some questions about the quality or value of sunlight during various times of day and year/season, back when I first started growing. My light "knowledge" or background comes from growing corals. No red wavelengths involved, we're interested mostly in the blue end and photoperiod.

 

[caveman4.20]

Legal plant not cannabis? How about the scientific 'gold' standard of Arabidopsis?

It's taken YEARS, but you're touching on some questions about the quality or value of sunlight during various times of day and year/season, back when I first started growing. My light "knowledge" or background comes from growing corals. No red wavelengths involved, we're interested mostly in the blue end and photoperiod.

How much is your coral growing experience helping your cannabis growing.......I've alwayswanted to grow coral and I've always thought coral growers would make the most intense cannabis medicine.

 

[caveman4.20]

I forgot to add placement of the plant is critical I believe to making this work when you want to force flower you want to catch the morning sunshine but be shaded to the later evening sunshine to increase the chance of triggering an early flower reaction once you go past the point where the plant naturally flowers you turn off you fr lamps and move the plant to a position for maximum solar insolation. To make this easy to judge it would be best to always grow a control plant with no FR to see when it goes flower.

In a grow room situation It's best to pulse the lights it only takes fractions of a second for Pr-Prf or vice versa the plant will do better from a 1 second pulse once a minute than a 5 minute pulse.

Outdoors I think you will need continuous FR preferably for 30 minutes before dusk a light diode, potentiometer will suffice for turning on the circuit then 30 minuts of FR with a pulsing 470nm led and then switching to pulsing the FR over night and on for 30 mins with pulsing 470nm just before dawn.

The circuit needed to do that is relatively simple I think though it would cost $40 to build the hardest bit is tuning the pot to turn the lights on when you want.

Cryptochrome light absorption

View attachment 376933

I can't help feeling that ~400nm might be something special it's has equal absorption rates for both Pr and Prf and high cryptochrome absorption not sure how we could use this but my gut is telling me there's something more there.


Photosynthesis light absorption
View attachment 376935
There's still significant absorption going on at 400nm by chlorophyll a which is interesting if not exploitable somehow.

View attachment 376936
If you look at phytochrome absorption at 280nm! That's Uvc it's a germicidal wavelength and causes blindness, cancers sun burns in humans so probably not good to have too much UVC potentially very useful if added to light tight air intake in line.

Potential gamechanging research I can't wait til you accomplish what your striving for

 

[Seamaiden]

How much is your coral growing experience helping your cannabis growing.......I've alwayswanted to grow coral and I've always thought coral growers would make the most intense cannabis medicine.

Not enough, or as much as I thought it would. Relative to my outdoor cultivation, I think my indoor skills fucking suck. I'm great at creating and maintaining an environment if it's aqueous and contained in a glass or plastic box, but a terrestrial environment? Then again, here's the problem for me--I love animals a lot more than I do plants. If given my preference of where and whom to be hangin' with, it's gonna be my cats, dog, chickens, rather than my plants. Sure, I love plants in that they are a part of nature and all, but I don't really interact with them the same way I do my animals.

The lighting for aquatics is also MUCH simpler, and that's due to the fact that red wavelengths don't penetrate more than a few feet into water, and so all aquatic photosynthetic organisms do not require light of those wavelengths. Your bigger problem, as you know, is getting that light to push through the water.

 

[caveman4.20]

IC

 

[Desertboy]

Potential gamechanging research I can't wait til you accomplish what your striving for

I prefer to think of it as taking old ideas and putting a new spin on them. The most interesting Phytochrome research was done in the '50's it wasn't until LED's the technology caught up with the ideas.

Before LED's all FR light was Incandesent/HID style with filters to remove the visible light which is highly inefficient and creates a lot of heat as well as reliability issues when pulsed/strobed.

 

[dogznova]

Anybody no about BLB incandescent black light bulbs for a far red source..

These bulbs can be used a cheep far red source that can be used in the darkness.. Yes LED 730 is a much better far red source, sure. But 730 LED's cant beat the price of BLB bulbs ..

BLB incandescent bulbs give off 99% of it energy in the far red spectrum 730 - 740. The other 1% is UV light. So as long as the BLB bulbs are not to close to the tops of the flowers.. They can be used as a night time far red source. Just saying.

Clear incandescent light bulbs can be used as a far red source during lights on.

I know the first question your gonna ask.. Why put clear inc's on during the lights on time.

The simple answer is... Speed of course.. o_O


Another little factoid about Black incandescent bulbs.. They have a time factor of .9

As a comparison.

Indoor darkness has a 1.0 time factor. 12 hours of darkness = 12 hours of darkness to the plants.

Outdoors at night time has a time factor of .8 .... It has multiple spectrum's darkness and far red. Where as indoor darkness is just that, absolute darkness.

So lets do some math here.. This is how outdoor night time gets 12.5 hours of work done in 10 hours.. Outdoors has a nighttime time factor of .8
The math goes like this. Take the number of hours and divided by it's time factor.

10 hours of outdoor darkness divided by it's .8 (time factor)= 12.5 hours of darkness. So plants outdoors think they are getting 12.5 hours of darkness when in reality they are receiving 10 hours of darkness and 14 hours of light. That's the start of the flowering season outdoors. Remember nights are getting longer each day that goes by, but when it gets to this point. Plants outdoors start to flower.

This is why people think they can run 14 hours of (lights on time) and 10 hours of darkness using 730 far red during the dark period.. And for the most part it's true you can.. It's not the most efficient use of electricity. But it does work.

Here is the catch

The problem that people run into indoors using this method and don't realize. Outdoors has something else that is happening as well.. Not just the Emerson effect. This is very important in making this work indoors.

Outdoors the BLUE light is not present pass the 12 hour mark when the flowering season starts (because of the earths tilting away from the sun).. Yes it's different all over the planet I understand. Just making an example here.

This is a fact for 90% of strains: Blue light must not be present beyond the 12 hour mark.

So to make this work indoors.. BLUE light can't be seen by the plants after the 12 hour mark, even if the 12 hours of critical darkness is met by using 730 far red(Emerson effect) and a 10 hour night time schedule.

Yes HPS has a bunch of BLUE light in it.. The method above wont work well if the HPS is on past the 12 hour mark in the beginning of flowering..

Of course there is an exception to this rule.. After flowers develop the blue light receptors are blocked for the most part and the plant will continue to flower if the HPS is on after the 12 hour mark.. (hence why you see some growers talk about turning the lights up in the middle of flowering then back down at the end). But that only works if you let the flower develop first then ramp up the HPS (on time).. Again not a very efficient use of electricity.. And yes your girls will fatten up a little bit but they will also ripen later after doing this.. Not a far trade off if you ask me.

I will do a thread on red light and how one can use red and far red to flower using 24 hours of lighting. Just testing out a new setup first .

As far as flashing or 15 mins only of far red.. well I have never gotten that to work... Lets look at the numbers for 15 mins of 730 shall we..

In order for 15 mins of 730 to work.. The time factor for that spectrum would have to be .1 lets do the math.

15 mins divided by .1 time factor = 2.5 hours of critical darkness.

If I'm not mistaken. A fully saturated area of 730 only brings the time factor to .7.. Yes it's fast, but not .1 fast.. lol

So lets do the math for a .7 time factor

1.75 hours of (on time) @ .7 time factor = 2.5 hours of critical darkness given back. Make sense.

A fully saturated area @ .7 would need 1.75 hours of on time to get 2.5 hours of critical darkness back. So as one can see doing the math. You need at a minimum of 1.75 hours of fully saturated 730 just to make the 2.5 hours back.. 15 mins or a flash my ass. You might be able to get the prf to pr to change but that's all you will get.. Plants require at a minimum 12 hours of critical darkness not just the prf to pr to change in order to flower not to mention the absence of BLUE light. yes it's confusing as hell. Sorry
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I think that will cause enough debate .. :banghead:

 

[Seamaiden]

There's a problem with the incandescents--they're being discontinued, one wattage group at a time. Pretty soon the only incandescent we'll be able to see in action will be the Livermore Light Bulb.

You've heard of the Livermore Light Bulb, right? It's been burning continuously for OVER 100 years. Check it out: http://www.centennialbulb.org/cam.htm

You've spun my noggin' with the math. :o