Pros and Cons of Water Chillers vs. Minisplits/AC

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ttystikk

ttystikk

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Hi all, this thread is meant to be a forum for open discussion about the merits of water chiller units vs. minisplits and AC, for the purposes of drilling down to relative efficiency, capability and quirks of operation. I want to make it clear at the outset that while I do have opinions on the subject from my own personal experience, I'm not an expert, nor am I a longtime HVAC tech.

I've occasionally dropped in on Cannabis John's thread and mentioned that water chilling might be the way to go for many people, and he graciously responded by saying he's not interested in trying to steer people one way or another, but rather to help them set up whatever system they ultimately choose. I respect his choice, and in fact that's the main reason I'm starting this thread; to have this conversation more directly.

Where the grower is, whether they use hydro or soil media for their grows, the size of the operation and other factors all figure into this, one of the more important decisions a growroom designer is likely to face. Getting this right means trouble free, low effort, low maintenance operations. Getting wrong means hassle, expense and even crop failure.

So what do you think? What's your experience been? If given the chance to do things differently, what would you change? Let's hear it here, and those who follow in our footsteps can have the benefits of our hindsight!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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So to kick things off, I'll start by saying I live in high altitude, low humidity Colorado. Up here, AC units have to work extra hard to overcome disadvantages of low air mass in cooling their spaces, and also tend to make a very dry situation worse by adding additional if inadvertent dehumidification.

I chose a 2 Ton ChillKing windowmount style chiller unit. I chose it for its advertised efficiency especially in comparison to AC, and because my style of grow is UC style recirculating deep water culture, where I need to keep my water temps in check and consistent.

I run several rooms, and this one chiller is more than able to keep up with everything, both air and water. It took substantial setup time and effort but it was all strictly DIY, since I never had to touch a freon fitting once. Hydro gardeners should have all the necessary skills to work with water anyway, right? In fact, one big reason I chose this unit was that I never would have to deal with freon, vacuum lines or charging, and if it needs repairs, it goes to the shop for them- so no nosey HVAC techs near my grow!

I also chose this approach for its flexibility; I run water lines everywhere I want to cool, and all my manifolds, both inlet and return, have valves on each port so I can isolate any circuit for repairs, etc without shutting down the whole system. I can also add and remove circuits anytime.

My RDWC systems need to run at about 62 degrees. I set my chiller to provide 60 degree water- setting range is 52-58, and it runs into a 55 gallon drum reservoir. In this way I avoid any need for thermostatic switches on my RDWC cooling coils to maintain temps; the system just runs wide open through all the 15' x 3/8" i.d. exchange tubing, simplifying setup and operation. As a result of this choice, I had to buy a separate dehumidifier since this water isn't quite cold enough to condense water out of the air at the 55-60% humidity levels I keep in my rooms. On the bright side, my pipes don't sweat either.

For air temperature management, I have 8" maxfans blowing through 8" Ice Boxes. Each pair is taped and screwed together and hung from the ceiling, aimed slightly downward. The fans are controlled by my Sentinel CHHC-4 environmental controller. Anytime the room warms up, the fans kick on, and push air through the Ice Boxes. I run 8x 1000watts in one room and it only needs two Ice Boxes to keep it firmly under control! Now to be fair I did not ask my chiller to cool bulb heat; I run 8" magnum xxxl 'ocho' hoods inline and pull cooling air through them from outside the growroom, through the hoods and outside with another 8" maxfan. This gets rid of about 2/3 of the heat generated without the need to actively cool it. Downside? They are sealed and vented hoods, with the efficiency losses of glass and the necessary design compromises of sealed hoods.

Now for the intersting part; This winter, I pulled my chiller inside my spare bedroom from the window and left the window partly open with a fan in it. Cold (Colorado cold!) air is blown into the room, warmed by the chiller exhaust, and is pulled through the rest of my house by that same maxfan cooling my hoods. This has resulted in all but eliminating my wintertime heating bill, saving up to $200 a month in gas! I'm not actually coming out ahead, but I'll take a discount wherever I can get one.
 
StickiestAbyss

StickiestAbyss

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Hourly Forecast6AM12 Noon6PM12 Midnight
Temp. | Dew Point 43 | 38 68 | 34 77 | 36 58 | 45
Wind 7 mph NW 3 mph WNW 2 mph WSW 10 mph NW
Humidity 80% 29% 23% 62%
Chance of Precip. 0% 0% 0% 0%
Cloud Cover 5% 5% 5% 14%
Conditions Clear Clear Clear Clear
Sunrise & Sunset
6:34 AM
7:28 PM
being at around 350 altitude also adds to the equation.. on one room i am running 10k with 10 x air cooled reflectors. 2 460 cfm duct fans, 6 oscillating fans and a 25,000 btu window mount style ac unit.. this seams to be the perfect set up to keep things at around 72-82 while using a co2 generator at 1500 ppm. having that 10 degrees to play between makes it nice and easy to keep dialed in.

BUT! lol.. i have another room 14 ft. cielings where im running 2 x 25000 btu ac units with 10k ans 10x batwing style reflectors, 8 oscillating fans, 1 x 1200 btu satnd alone ac unit and im still having trouble keeping this bad girl under 80 degrees. and thats without running my co2 generator.. i was trying to do a budget grow i had read about.. and since my ceilings in this room were so high i figured doubling the ac would do the trick and id be able to squeeze more lumen from the 10 x 1000 watts... this room has been nothing but head aches.. humidity off the charts,, so i added a dehumidifier.. that helped.. now my only trouble is the co2 enrichment.. im afraid to turn that sucker on again lol.. right now i got the room held at 78 degrees.. im thinking i may have to start running the co2 while the lights are off.. build it up to 1500 and then cut it off 20 min after the lights kick on.. put it on a timer so it only kicks on again about 6 hours later.. im not sure if the screwy levles will stress my girls out or work fine...

any ideas?? any help or input would be awesome..
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Stickiest, you're playing with fire running flat out like that to keep temps in check. First, running AC continuously is tough on the compressor and shortens lifespan. Second, if it quits your room is toast... literally.

Replace the batwings with sealed and vented units, or get more cooling. Soon.

This thread is more about the relative merits of different types of cooling, rather than individual problem solving. You haven't mentioned what kind of media your plants are in, whether it's hydro or what? If it's RDWC, you may consider water cooling as a best option since you'll be reducing the total number of chillers.

However, since you're having trouble with high RH you may want to stick with AC- but get bigger capacity, for sure!- specifically because it will help with your humidity issues. At your low altitude and higher outdoor humidity the AC unit should be able to transfer heat reasonably well. Don't place your AC units in direct sunlight if you can help it.
 
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Get HI

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ttystikk,

Awesome thread. Hopefully you get more people checking it out. Super efficient setup you have, LUV it!!!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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ttystikk,

Awesome thread. Hopefully you get more people checking it out. Super efficient setup you have, LUV it!!!

I'm working on building out another room like it on the flip- this way, the same system will be able to cool twice as much working square footage, without having to add capacity.

Get HI, while you're here, maybe you can speak to the details of air handling and dehumidifcation using a water chilling approach? I confess to not being competely happy with my separate dehuey setup, as it adds a lot of heat back into the room the Ice Boxes then have to get rid of. Not efficient. I'm actually thinking of mounting and sealing another Ice Box directly to the dehuey air outlet. The fan in the unit should blow the hot exhaust air through it and cool it down before it makes it out into the room. What's your thought on this?
 
G

Get HI

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Sorry for the delay. Yes, you can definitely use an Ice Box on the dehu exhaust to remove the extra heat it puts out. Excellent idea! Some dehus out there will even have a 6" exhaust port that you can affix the Ice Box directly to.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Sorry for the delay. Yes, you can definitely use an Ice Box on the dehu exhaust to remove the extra heat it puts out. Excellent idea! Some dehus out there will even have a 6" exhaust port that you can affix the Ice Box directly to.

No worries. While you're around, I wanted to ask you about another idea I have up my sleeve; the dehuey I have, as I mentioned, is not up to the job of keeping the humdity in the room under control. I designed my water cooling system to be just above dewpoint, when the room's humidity is where it's supposed to be. Right now, the Ice Boxes are spewing water everywhere, there are puddles on the floor, not good. I have the Ice Boxes on an angle, but that's not effective to keep them from spraying water.

So here's my solution; I'm going to add another Ice Box, and take the first trwo and re-mount them vertically, so the fan blows through the Ice Box straight down. If needed, I'll get a shorty stovepipe so the intake is still up near the ceiling where the hot air is. The reason for the vertical nose-dive attitude is to separate the cool air from the water droplets. The droplets will drop straight down into a tub on the floor that will get emptied out, rather than puddling on the floor.

My guess is this will work reasonably well and prevent the 'multiplication' factor currently happening in the room; the Ice Boxes spray water which ends up on the floor, which then has to re-evaporate and then find its way to the dehuey, which then finally gets rid of it. Meanwhile, all the energy the chiller spends on condensation is effectively wasted, and the chiller works harder to cool the heat from the overworked dehuey.

Instead, the vertical Ice Boxes will drain the water they're already condensing out of the air into a tub, where it will be drained off. Once the room air's dewpoint falls to the point where it matches the temp of the water in the Ice Boxes, these will stop dripping, leaving the dehuey to only have to deal with what's left. No more puddles, no more constantly running dehuey and as a bonus the room temp will stay more even. I'll be spending less money to cool a dehuey that now doesn't have to run all the time.

I know full well this is not the same as buying a porper airhandler, but it's what will fit the budget at the moment. What do you think?
 
G

Greenery

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I don't know anyone who has had a mini split reliably work for more than 1 year.
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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I don't know anyone who has had a mini split reliably work for more than 1 year.
They should stop buying bargain basement mini splits and trying to install them not knowing what they are doing then,I personally do not know anyone who did it right that is not happy with their mini and mitsu offers like a 5 year warranty.
 
nangonug

nangonug

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They should stop buying bargain basement mini splits and trying to install them not knowing what they are doing then,I personally do not know anyone who did it right that is not happy with their mini and mitsu offers like a 5 year warranty.

I have heard about the same except one friend who put 4 heat pump splits in last summer has a warrenty issue. One of the systems has failed and it has been over 3 months and he still has not been repaired, plus the company who did the install is telling him he has to pay fright of like 200 bucks to get the thing fixed. So 3 of the 4 systems he had professionally installed is working properly and 1 is curretly in a non operating state and awaiting warrenty repair. These are the top of the line fujitsu systems installed by liscened hvac tec's. So needless to say I have been waiting to see how it plays out. I still may go with a mini split but I may opt for a regular heat pump and air handler. He payed almost 5 grand for the one thats not working right now. For 5 grand I can get a top of the line heat pump, air handler, electrostatic air filter and uv light, run ducting to where I need it and still have money left over for lunch. The real difference is in the fact I would have to run some ducting inside along with a couple of tstat controlers. I really like the ease of instaliation of a mini split but I think the uper end units are overpriced for what they are.

I like the idea of water cooling but around here the heat pump is king. They often operate at above 100 percent effecency because of the moisture in the air. For a dry environment heat pumps (a/c) work harder so not so good and not so efficent . For a comperable water cooled system the cost would be 2 to 3 times the initial expense plus an actual loss of efficency at times. It is not economically feasable to use a chiller in this environment. Now if I was in a hot arid reagon then I'm sure that would change the game but here it just don't make sense. Even the larger comercial buildings utilize heat pump tecnology around here! My ultimate goal is to be able to run all my lamps open hooded. I believe the difference in quality and increased output will make up for the difference in cooling cost. Water chilling has many apealing features but initial cost is not one for sure.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I have heard about the same except one friend who put 4 heat pump splits in last summer has a warrenty issue. One of the systems has failed and it has been over 3 months and he still has not been repaired, plus the company who did the install is telling him he has to pay fright of like 200 bucks to get the thing fixed. So 3 of the 4 systems he had professionally installed is working properly and 1 is curretly in a non operating state and awaiting warrenty repair. These are the top of the line fujitsu systems installed by liscened hvac tec's. So needless to say I have been waiting to see how it plays out. I still may go with a mini split but I may opt for a regular heat pump and air handler. He payed almost 5 grand for the one thats not working right now. For 5 grand I can get a top of the line heat pump, air handler, electrostatic air filter and uv light, run ducting to where I need it and still have money left over for lunch. The real difference is in the fact I would have to run some ducting inside along with a couple of tstat controlers. I really like the ease of instaliation of a mini split but I think the uper end units are overpriced for what they are.

I like the idea of water cooling but around here the heat pump is king. They often operate at above 100 percent effecency because of the moisture in the air. For a dry environment heat pumps (a/c) work harder so not so good and not so efficent . For a comperable water cooled system the cost would be 2 to 3 times the initial expense plus an actual loss of efficency at times. It is not economically feasable to use a chiller in this environment. Now if I was in a hot arid reagon then I'm sure that would change the game but here it just don't make sense. Even the larger comercial buildings utilize heat pump tecnology around here! My ultimate goal is to be able to run all my lamps open hooded. I believe the difference in quality and increased output will make up for the difference in cooling cost. Water chilling has many apealing features but initial cost is not one for sure.

You bring up several good points here.
1. buy the proper system for the climate you live in. I would be the first to tell someone NOT to get a chiller system in a humid climate- AC and heat pumps are better solutions there. The reverse is also true...

2. Whatever equipment you get, be sure and have a backup plan in case it fails. For my chiller, that's as simple as running cold water from the tap through my chiller's water circulation system, then draining to waste (or the front yard!). NOT efficient, but it will serve as short term backup until I get my chiller fixed.

3. Quality gear often costs more, but you make it up on the back end in better efficiency. Ditto for the investment in setup. In the case of my chiller, the install was a pain but covered several rooms and multiple applications. It is still worth it since I only run one chiller for everything.
 
G

Greenery

5
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They should stop buying bargain basement mini splits and trying to install them not knowing what they are doing then,I personally do not know anyone who did it right that is not happy with their mini and mitsu offers like a 5 year warranty.

My other complaint is the fans never push the air hard enough. A big air handler with a proper venting arrangement keeps a room much more evenly cooled. One would have to install many mini splits to achieve this in a larger room
 
Resinable

Resinable

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Ok, I can verify running Mitsubishi mini splits for five years no problems; also if something were to go bad it would probably be the air handler which can be cheaply replaced; the outside units are robust. Get a Mitsubishi, Fujitsu or Friedrich.

On the Chillers vs. ACs I must disagree that chillers are more efficient much less better. Not to be disagreeable but in the search for knowledge lets dispel some myths:

First, chillers are in fact modified ACs, they use the exact same technology and work in the same way but instead of cooling the air with an air handler they cool water and or coolant with a pump. So if an AC's performance is negatively effected by humidity or altitude than so will the chiller's.

Second, chillers are like old low tech ACs in that they don't use inverters like the latest most efficient ACs. Meaning they don't modulate their output according to what is needed they either run or they don't and as many know they consume the most power starting up.

Third, when looking at power consumption you have to take into account that chillers work in conjunction with fans and pumps which consume power. So when calculating for purposes of comparing cooling setups lets agree to add up all the power consumed in cooling a given grow room.

Fourth, with chillers you are using a condenser and fan to extract heat from liquid via refrigerant and then in turn using the cooled liquid to cool your grow room air. Essentially adding a step in the heat transference process which is not efficient; with an AC you extract heat from you room via refrigerant and then expel that heat via outside air with a fan and condenser.

I believe that a new inverter style AC will be more efficient than a chiller system.

Real world example: I cooled a 100 sq foot room with 9000 watts of light (6000 watts in air cooled reflectors and 3 1000 watt vert bare bulbs) and a propane CO2 generator with 1 9,000 btu and 2 12,000 btu Mitsubishi minisplits. Ballasts were not in the grow room; hoods were cooled by to FG6 fantech fans; ballasts in another area cooled by 1 FG6 fan. Total watts devoted to cooling:
9,000 btu AC: 600 watts
2 12,00 btu ACs: 2 x 960= 1920
3 fans= 3 x 153 = 459
total=2979

PS: Although I obviously don't think I am, I could be wrong about this and am curious to see what others will say. I keep an open mind.
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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Great post resin,also with the chillers there are many more little things to go wrong,lots of liquid connections,pumps,ice boxes etc etc,more components=more chance for problems.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Ok, I can verify running Mitsubishi mini splits for five years no problems; also if something were to go bad it would probably be the air handler which can be cheaply replaced; the outside units are robust. Get a Mitsubishi, Fujitsu or Friedrich.

On the Chillers vs. ACs I must disagree that chillers are more efficient much less better. Not to be disagreeable but in the search for knowledge lets dispel some myths:

First, chillers are in fact modified ACs, they use the exact same technology and work in the same way but instead of cooling the air with an air handler they cool water and or coolant with a pump. So if an AC's performance is negatively effected by humidity or altitude than so will the chiller's.

Second, chillers are like old low tech ACs in that they don't use inverters like the latest most efficient ACs. Meaning they don't modulate their output according to what is needed they either run or they don't and as many know they consume the most power starting up.

Third, when looking at power consumption you have to take into account that chillers work in conjunction with fans and pumps which consume power. So when calculating for purposes of comparing cooling setups lets agree to add up all the power consumed in cooling a given grow room.

Fourth, with chillers you are using a condenser and fan to extract heat from liquid via refrigerant and then in turn using the cooled liquid to cool your grow room air. Essentially adding a step in the heat transference process which is not efficient; with an AC you extract heat from you room via refrigerant and then expel that heat via outside air with a fan and condenser.

I believe that a new inverter style AC will be more efficient than a chiller system.

PS: Although I obviously don't think I am, I could be wrong about this and am curious to see what others will say. I keep an open mind.

I'll address your points in order:

1. You've got the wrong end when considering the efficiency deficiency of AC vs. chiller; it's the ambient air that impacts an AC unit's efficiency, that is, the fact that the air the AC unit is trying to cool isn't very thermally dense. The fan blowing through the compressor section isn't the problem. It's trying to get the COLD from the AC unit to its destination that gets tougher as altitude climbs and humidity falls.

2. True. But since when is running at half speed always more efficient? A chiller can get away with running at 100% or not at all because the water it's cooling is the cold reservoir for the system. When the water warms up past the chiller's setpoint, it runs at 100% output, AND at its best efficiency setting, until the water is cooled. It then shuts off completely until the water is again too warm. The length of time it spends idle does indeed contribute directly- and mightily- to its efficient performance. Finally, the excess power consumed at startup lasts for less than a whole second, not very long when considering a given operating cycle lasts minutes.

3. Okay, that's fair. Let's also remember to add in all fans used to blow cold air around from a minisplit.

4. You're right in that the heat energy is moved from the growroom air and put into water. What you're missing is the efficiency at which this process takes place. Because of water's much greater thermal density, the efficiency at which heat is moved from one media to another is much more important to the overall calculation than merely whether or how often it happens. The water is a thermal reservoir. It is here where 'cold' is stored for use in the growroom while the chiller is off.

Since we don't have the same growing setups, it's tough to compare apples to apples. ChillKing's 2 Ton chiller unit runs on 240v and pulls 8.5 amps. That's roughly 2000 watts- when it's running. When it's not running, it's effectively zero. Yes, there are pumps and such still running, but they don't add up to more than 100 watts. Even when cooling 8kW of sealed and vented hoods, 3 RDWC systems and an Ice Box in another room all simultaneously, it doesn't run constantly. It runs about 2/3 of the time... Best of all (and this is why I chose this style in the first place) I will not need to buy another AC unit to cool a second room on the flip- I just plumb a few more Ice Boxes into the existing system and plug the fans that blow through them into another temp. controller and I'm done! The chiller will keep up with the second room with no trouble, as its heat load occurs only when the first room is off.

As far as complexity goes, I would much rather maintain one chiller than 3 different AC units! By the way, what are the wattage outputs of all of those systems?

Let us also not forget that I have yet to see an AC unit that chills the water in a hydro system.

Finally, to use outside examples; architects and engineers design modern buildings to be as energy efficient as possible, knowing that the operating cost of cooling a building will quickly outpace whatever installation cost differences might be associated with one system vs. another. Most of these buildings use water chilling, for all the reasons I've outlined above. If AC were truly more efficient, you can bet they would use it instead!

Nowhere have I said that a chiller is 'in all cases better no matter what' than other approaches. I'm told heat pumps are very effective in high humidity situations, often operating above 100% efficiency. I don't know anything more than what I've been told in this regard. Also, AC can be very effective in low altitude/high humidity applications because it can reduce RH. So can a chiller, but the performance difference isn't as great.
 
GanjaAL

GanjaAL

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Back when I was going to use water cooled... everything needed to run it was going to be to expensive and require alot of electricity... where as my high efficiency 2ton mini split only cost 2500 installed and only uses 1300 watts vs the what it was going to cost for the industrial pump and chiller. Also being a plumber... leaks happen... and in a water cooled system... if it failed it would be real bad joojoo.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Great post resin,also with the chillers there are many more little things to go wrong,lots of liquid connections,pumps,ice boxes etc etc,more components=more chance for problems.

Yes... and no. Liquid connections are pretty simple to maintain, and I can fix my own leaks. A freon leak in a long line between minisplit components requires an HVAC tech visit, period. Ice Box units are solid state, and therefore very reliable.

While we're on the subject of strangers coming to the house, my 2 Ton chiller is fully portable, since it's a window unit. No freon leaves the case, so if it breaks or needs service, I just put it in the back of my SUV and take it to the shop; no stranger stomping around my grow, and no extra charge for a house call. PRICELESS, lol.

I run one pump to power my entire cooling plant. It's a 1/2 hp Flotec, and it's about the most reliable piece of kit in the whole growing operation.

I run 8" maxfans to blow air through the Ice Box units. These are thermostatically controlled, and are also plenty reliable- and I haven't heard anyone claim they don't also use fans and such to distribute cooling air around their growroom.
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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Man i so want to beleive in something simpler,More reliable and more energy efficient with less problems,even if its a little more expensive but im just not buying in yet,so for me for now im putting chillers in the same category as induction and plasma lighting,i have great hopes for all these things but i just dont think they are as good as other options available at this time.I hope that people like tty continue experimenting and all these products are refined to a point that makes fiscal sense for the rest of us.I may be wrong on this tty but didnt you say you got some kind of smoking deal on your chiller in another thread?Hell i dont like chevys but if i could get one for half price of a ford id consider it,lol.
 
Resinable

Resinable

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Ttystikk, it seems like your chiller set up works well for you and I doubt it is vastly more inefficient than an AC system. However, please consider that there are good reasons that most large scale grows do not employ water cooling.

I would like to know the total wattage used to cool your room. So far I gather that you use:

1, 2 ton chiller at (according to hydroinnovations) 9 amp running 13 amp start up on roughly 2/3 of the time=1425watts but that does not take into account the start up amps so maybe 1600 watts?

8 inch max fans at 179 watts (how many) = 2 x 179 = 358

1 flotech 1/2 horsepower 8.5 amps at 115 =1020 watts

estimated total =2978

About the same as I used to cool 9000 watts 3000 of which were bare bulb. Are your ballasts mounted in your room?

1. You've got the wrong end when considering the efficiency deficiency of AC vs. chiller; it's the ambient air that impacts an AC unit's efficiency, that is, the fact that the air the AC unit is trying to cool isn't very thermally dense. The fan blowing through the compressor section isn't the problem. It's trying to get the COLD from the AC unit to its destination that gets tougher as altitude climbs and humidity falls.

I don't understand this part, so you are saying at high altitude the air in my in my sealed grow room is dryer? Regardless of the outside air humidity in a sealed room with that much wattage the air will be dry. What is your source for this belief? I don't understand how altitude effects a my air handler's efficiency.

Also even though my cooling system totaled about 3000 watts that is a very rough estimate and probably high due to the fact that the inverter AC (which dos not just idle at 1/2 speed but has in effect thousands of speeds) only as power as it needs to at a given time and does not surge on and off. It also consumes less power when it is cold outside due to easier heat transfer in greater temp differential for the compressor.

Another point in favor of my system is that my numbers come from Northern California (not by the coast and not in the mountains) so I think it is probably on average hotter here than in Colorado.

Lastly my ACs were about 20 SEER; the new fujitsu units are 27 SEER for the 9000btu and 25 SEER for the 12000 btu at 2.7 and 4.0 running amps. That would have made my total cooling system draw about 2813 watts!
 
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