ttystikk
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Okay, so your minisplit uses 1300 watts. How much gear does it cool? I run hydro. LEAKS HAPPEN, lol- so I'm prepared.
Pros and Cons of Water Chillers vs. Minisplits/AC
Okay, so your minisplit uses 1300 watts. How much gear does it cool? I run hydro. LEAKS HAPPEN, lol- so I'm prepared.
ttystikk
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The difference between chillers and plasma lighting is marketing; plasma lighting is a new tech, chilling has been around for centuries, literally. They are absolutely no more technically sophisticated- or complicated- than standard AC. The only real difference between them is what the cold side cools; either water or air. I'm honestly not sure how much more 'refined' they can- or need to- get. The pain of installation has nothing to do with the chiller itself, just all the hoses required to run cold water to where you need it.
You're right, I did get quite a deal, from a guy who tried it and decided it wasn't for him- he was also in a humid state, right on the seacoast. This may well have played a role in his decision, I don't know.
What I CAN say is that the chiller has worked flawlessly, and that my power bill did not go through the roof when I installed it. And it was nice to have it in the house all winter, because it put out enough heat to warm my whole house, all 2000 sq. ft of it, in a Colorado winter!
ttystikk
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To answer your question about how altitude affects AC, consider that the working fluid for an AC unit is the air you're trying to cool. The denser that air- with humidity, air mass or both- the more efficiently it will operate. High altitude hurts AC efficiency because of low air density, therefore less thermal mass for the AC unit to cool at any given moment, and therefore a loss in effective efficiency. The fact that you're running your minisplit in a sealed room environment is to your benefit and actually increases thermal mass due to higher humidity, that is a good point.
I read 8.5 amps from the chiller's tag itself. Also, the full amp draw at startup lasts only a second- so it doesn't bump the average like your calculations suggest. So, closer to 1350 watts, as an average. I do wish I had a SEER equivalent rating, this discussion would be over fast if that were the case, lol.
Also the Flotec pump is RATED for 1/2 hp, but like almost all electric motors, it's not designed to run continuously at full load. It runs continuously so there is no 'startup' load, it probably pulls like 1 or 2 amps to move the water. Hell, the motor is always cool to the touch, so it can't be pulling much! I'm guessing 150 watts, max.
The Maxfans run about half the time- only when the room needs cooling, much like your minisplit- does the mfr's wattage rating tag include the fans on the minisplits as well as the compressor? Double check; many do not.
That makes my total system power usage closer to 1550 watts on average, to cool 8kW of HPS, 3 RDWC and another room that isn't sealed and so only gets additional cooling as needed when it gets hot.
I'm pretty happy with that- and I'm quite sure that my chiller system is on the small side and old-tech, both of which hurt efficiency. I know for a fact that Hydro Innovations has newer systems that are far more efficient than mine, and some of those even come with dual temps, so you can run an air handler from the same chiller. Very nice, that. There is one 6 ton unit they were testing last year; Chillville sent me some pics of it pulling only the same 8.5 amps @240v as mine. That's 3 times as efficient as the unit I'm using right now- so if you want to compare the latest chiller apple to the latest AC orange, try that one in your fruit basket... :D
GanjaAL
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It is capable of cooling at least three bare bulbs, dehuey, and since I will be running coco... my wattage should be real low. Also... this would be done in 115 deg. weather. so to be honest... I like the ideal of bare bulbs and the ability to move my lights up and down. Also there is no water to chill as well since chow mix will be used. For me... it is all about ease of use and less wattage use. I rather spend the money on lights than money running a chiller for hydro, chiller for lights, pumps and what not. But again... different strokes for different folks. I was going to run the complete hydro inovation line... but when I had my buddy come over and we had to run all kinds of electrical and different breakers and shit for everything... I was like wow!.
I ran the numbers on wattage... and for me the mini split was by far more economical and less to go wrong. Besides... my first try was DWC and I had an epic fail with it... hence my reason to go with chow mix and get rid of everything else and the reason I am revamping the room.
Resinable
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Great discussion. It really comes down to the numbers and it might not be possible to obtain the precise numbers. I guess you would have to hook up power consumption meters on the various pieces of equipment and log them into a computer.
So your 8.5 amp pump only uses 150 watts? hmmm :rolleyes:
I think your flotec is a weak link in your system; you should check out reeflo and some of the aquarium pumps, they are much more efficient and have much less heat transfer to the water.
One thing that makes me suspicious is why does hydroinnovations make it so difficult to find there power consumption numbers on their website. Also water chillers are usually rated by horsepower not btus and tons; is there any verification of their designations?
Mitsubishis give the total power consumed for the air handler and compressor.
Tystikk, how many iceboxes and max fans do you utilize in your eight k room?
I really appreciate how we can have this discussion without it becoming contentious or personal like I have so often seen. I also appreciate the spirit of innovation and willingness to try something new that Tystikk shows.
So your 8.5 amp pump only uses 150 watts? hmmm :rolleyes:
I think your flotec is a weak link in your system; you should check out reeflo and some of the aquarium pumps, they are much more efficient and have much less heat transfer to the water.
One thing that makes me suspicious is why does hydroinnovations make it so difficult to find there power consumption numbers on their website. Also water chillers are usually rated by horsepower not btus and tons; is there any verification of their designations?
Mitsubishis give the total power consumed for the air handler and compressor.
Tystikk, how many iceboxes and max fans do you utilize in your eight k room?
I really appreciate how we can have this discussion without it becoming contentious or personal like I have so often seen. I also appreciate the spirit of innovation and willingness to try something new that Tystikk shows.
fishwhistle
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tty,just the fact that it heats your whole house in colorado in the winter time is epic savings.
ttystikk
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You're right about a lot of this; a minisplit is a simple solution that does indeed work for many people. I believe there is a minimum size below which water chilling just doesn't make economical sense- and you may well be below it. I went with water chilling because of a smokin' deal I got on the gear and the fact that I was stuck on RDWC. After some disappointing runs, however, I'm going to run chow mix and top drip- no need for water chilling.
I may be going bare bulb too (or at least not sealed)- but I'm sticking with horizontal for now... and of course there's gonna be a light rotator in there somewhere! Once I get things dialed in to the point where I feel like I can get dependable numbers (hence the switch from RDWC to chow mix), I'll run a chow mix room, same size, same lights, same wattage with a rotator and see for myself if there is a yield boost- and if so, how much. I read somewhere recently (I think it was the watts/lumens vs. square feet thread by Texas Kid) that he got some incredible yield per square foot numbers because the plants had stacked the weight vertically, like skyscrapers. If that turns out to be the case, then a good light rotator design should do that tendency some justice!
If it works, I'll be the guy saying, 'I told you so! And here's why!' And, if it doesn't, I'll be the guy saying, 'okay, it's officially a dead horse, and here's why.' Only a fool doesn't realize that a negative result is still progress. To me, it's a win either way, and my farmer buddies here will get the results FIRST. :D
ttystikk
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Well, I think it would take a Kill-a-Watt and having both units run the same room for a cycle or two to get a true head to head. All I can say is that after the pain of installation, it has been very flexible and easily reconfigurable for me.
Yes, just like a car engine. Sure, your Vette motor is rated for 400hp, but how often does even a racer use it all? So, after startup, it just has to keep pushing the water, and it does this for far, far less than full rated output. The limit is speed; the motor wants to run at its rated rpm- not sure what that is, guessing about 120rpm- and will use only enough electricity for it to do so. If drag is less than its full rated output, then it will use less, just like the Vette motor uses only a tiny fraction of its rated output to cruise down the freeway at a steady speed. If the water pump tried to use the full rated output all the time regardless of load, it would be a worthless, even dangerous machine! Does that make more sense now?
I'm sure there are more efficient pumps out there, and when I'm rolling in cash I'll look into them. For now, this Flotec is reasonable, reliable and doesn't seem to transmit much heat. The back of the motor isn't hot, even the furthest point from the pumphead is cool. And I got it as part of the deal...
HI is run by a bunch of kids who don't have the time or inclination to put all the details on their website. They know that those who are serious will call, and that gives them the opportunity to sell the gear. If you want the exact specs, go the mfrs. of the gear in question; maxfans, Flotec pumps and Chillking chillers. HI is a glorified sales operation with a lil research thrown in to keep it interesting. And it works well for them, so good on 'em!
Not sure on the conversions between various measures of cooling capacity. I suspect that would be part of an HVAC tech's vocabulary...
Mitsubichi is a good brand, as is Chillking. If there's anything I've learned in the past few years, it's that you don't save any money by getting the cheapie gear. If I get a minisplit, chances are high I would get a Mitsu.
The 8kW room is all Magnum XXXL 8" 'Ocho' hoods, double barrel style, sealed and vented. One maxfan pulls the air from outside the room, through all the hoods, through a 2 into 1 8" Y collector, and then pushes it out the window. I have two sets of 8" IceBox/Maxfan pairs running currently, I think I need to add a third. That would be a total of 3 Ice Boxes and 3 maxfans plus the hoses required for each to get water from the inlet manifold and back to the return manifold. The water never runs through more than one cooling unit before heading back to the res. CO2 is tank style, and I run a Panasonic 70 pint dehuey. No other heat sources in the room.
Thank you re. the discussion being insightful without being in-ya-face. You too! Yes, I'm a restless gearhead, always tinkering at the margins to see what I come up with. If I didn't, I think I might die of boredom, lol.
ttystikk
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Yeah, compared to the winter before, I saved like $150-$180 a month in gas bills from October through April. That should be a bit of a head scratcher down at the gas company, eh? o_O
fishwhistle
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Thats huge bro how much in electricity do you think it cost you to run the chiller?One of my thoughts through this whole thread has been if chillers are so great why dont they use them to cool homes instead of A/C which we all know sucks up the power?Conspiracy by the power company lol?
GanjaAL
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Yea brother... it is a great concept but beyond where I am at now. I just want it simple as possible as I have alot on my plate. When I have more time to research it... I am sure I could get it to do great things. Water cooling can be efficient... hell we run swamp coolers where we are at... at 1/10th the cost of running an AC unit. I think it just needs a little more work and some more advances so that it can be practical for a small grower like me.
fishwhistle
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sounds like your in the desert al,High or low?
GanjaAL
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High. Very dry, very hot... but it is a great place to live. small town living and everyon pretty much sticks to themselves. The heat and cold are only a few months out of the year and the rest of the time it is great weather. I hate hot and humid weather.
ttystikk
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Chillers make more sense the bigger your cooling needs get. I guess someone made a calculation long ago that AC was simpler for the consumer and the application was small enough the efficiency difference wouldn't matter. And very likely, chillers weren't as well developed as they are now. Certainly, initial cost played a part in this decision as well.
Here's where water heating and cooling at home WILL come into its own; solar/high efficiency home construction. The preferred method of moving heat around an active solar home is water. No reason why this can't work in the other direction, too- Yes, there are media that have better heat transfer characteristics than water, but most of them are expensive, poisonous, or both. Water is pretty safe. Just gotta keep it from freezing, either with propylene glycol, or with inspired design that allows the water to capture the heat/cold without ever reaching its freezing/boiling points.
EDIT: Forgot to address cost of chiller vs. savings in heating bills. I would say that the money saved on heating in the winter will roughly- within 25% one way or the other- pay for the entire years' operation of the chiller, at (guessing here) $50-$75 a month. Not bad!
ttystikk
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I run swampers every chance I get! The problem is that swampers and sealed grow rooms aren't very compatible.
S
seebobsled
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Well to add to the conversation from my point of view... I have ran diy boxed,ducted window ac, window ac, and chiller setup. That said
I think split ac's and chillers are in a very similar category. If you buy high quality energy efficient equipment both can be ran very economical. I think what it really comes down to is how handy you are. do you like the diy projects or better yet can you do the diy projects. High seer rating split units use a high quality energy efficient fans and compressor and such of that nature To get the high energy efficient rating.
But I also used a high quality fan , a pump buy sequel that use 2.88 amps @ 5400gph, ecoplus 1.5 horsepower chiller that's rated 12,000btu 10.5amp 120v ,1 diy icebox, 65pint dehumidifier, 1200 watt air cooled lights in a 4x8 tent. But ballast,light heat and chiller was in a separated quipment room and blown into my house all winter for free heat as ttystick.
this way was better than the window ac's.
But the real biggest thing is That has affected my pg&e bill was cutting out the tv. Having the tv usage was bumping me up the tere system. Dropped cable and switched to a smartphone. Dropped 100 bucks right there I don't care who you are that's great . I think I like diet if you just gotta watch what you eat or what you're using you can control your costs and weight. Or watts is what we are really taking about.
So recap: diy/ stealth - waterchill
Professional install- split ac
That's my 2 cents.
Also ttystick your chiller is 240 * 8.5 amps=2040 watts
Voltage times amprage equals watts.
I think split ac's and chillers are in a very similar category. If you buy high quality energy efficient equipment both can be ran very economical. I think what it really comes down to is how handy you are. do you like the diy projects or better yet can you do the diy projects. High seer rating split units use a high quality energy efficient fans and compressor and such of that nature To get the high energy efficient rating.
But I also used a high quality fan , a pump buy sequel that use 2.88 amps @ 5400gph, ecoplus 1.5 horsepower chiller that's rated 12,000btu 10.5amp 120v ,1 diy icebox, 65pint dehumidifier, 1200 watt air cooled lights in a 4x8 tent. But ballast,light heat and chiller was in a separated quipment room and blown into my house all winter for free heat as ttystick.
this way was better than the window ac's.
But the real biggest thing is That has affected my pg&e bill was cutting out the tv. Having the tv usage was bumping me up the tere system. Dropped cable and switched to a smartphone. Dropped 100 bucks right there I don't care who you are that's great . I think I like diet if you just gotta watch what you eat or what you're using you can control your costs and weight. Or watts is what we are really taking about.
So recap: diy/ stealth - waterchill
Professional install- split ac
That's my 2 cents.
Also ttystick your chiller is 240 * 8.5 amps=2040 watts
Voltage times amprage equals watts.
ttystikk
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These are all good points. The reason I used a lower wattage number for my chiller is because even when the lights and everything are on, my chiller still doesn't run all the time; only about 50%. This reduces the average power consumption by about half...
Racker
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From another point of view,
The A/C unit i use has no outside unit. The condenser is inside the unit and is watercooled. The unit therefore is one piece. You don,t need mechanics to fiddel arround with gas and there are no lines or pipes filled with gas going outside. There is no outside footprint.
The only thing you need in your growroom is power, a watersupply and a drain. The unit can cool, heat, circulate air, clean air and dehumidify.
How it works?
When lights are on and temp rises above the set limit, the compressor starts running and build up pressure. This pressure opens a watervalve and cold water flows into the unit. The cold water gets hot because it cools the condenser. (water in 59F>water out 115F) Al the heat from the growroom is in the drainwater (in theorie).
When temp is under the set limit, the compressor stops working, pressure drops and watervalve closes.
In the nightmode (lights off) the unit cools the room. When the growroom is to cold, the heaters inside the unit turn on. When growroom is to humid, the compressor starts running again, together with the heaters. This dehumidifys the growroom at night.
A lightcell in the growroom tells the unit if lights are on or off.
I hope it contributes a little to this topic
The A/C unit i use has no outside unit. The condenser is inside the unit and is watercooled. The unit therefore is one piece. You don,t need mechanics to fiddel arround with gas and there are no lines or pipes filled with gas going outside. There is no outside footprint.
The only thing you need in your growroom is power, a watersupply and a drain. The unit can cool, heat, circulate air, clean air and dehumidify.
How it works?
When lights are on and temp rises above the set limit, the compressor starts running and build up pressure. This pressure opens a watervalve and cold water flows into the unit. The cold water gets hot because it cools the condenser. (water in 59F>water out 115F) Al the heat from the growroom is in the drainwater (in theorie).
When temp is under the set limit, the compressor stops working, pressure drops and watervalve closes.
In the nightmode (lights off) the unit cools the room. When the growroom is to cold, the heaters inside the unit turn on. When growroom is to humid, the compressor starts running again, together with the heaters. This dehumidifys the growroom at night.
A lightcell in the growroom tells the unit if lights are on or off.
I hope it contributes a little to this topic
ttystikk
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So this is a fascinating spin on the old concept of water chilling; run it so that the waste heat is pumped INTO the water, which is then discarded. Sounds like a perfect way to run my hot tub!
Racker
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:) Waste water is perfect for underfloor heating.
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