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Discussion in 'Nutrients and Fertilizers' started by Mr.jiujitsu, Jan 16, 2019.
Who is the author and what professional background does he come from ? Also, this article seems to be lacking a lot of basic info. For example, azadirachtin is only one of many active compounds in neem oil.
I also noticed there is zero scientific proof that neem oil is responsible for these cases of azadirachtin contamination. A more controlled study would be in order to prove this claim.
I’ll have to disagree with the little note at the end there. As far as i know azamax and any other pesticide in which NeemAzal technical used are not synthetic. NeemAzal Technical is a water based extraction of the active compounds.
Other than that, research done on aspen trees shows that azadirachtin will be in the plant tissue for more than 50 days. Now cannabis is not the same as aspen plants but at least a window of 50 days should be a safe bet. So no azadirachtin in flower for me.
Also neem oil should be avoided in anycase because it contains aflatoxin. Rather than neem oil, NeemAzal derived pesticides are a safer option imo as the oil of the neem, which contains aflatoxin is left behind in the extraction process. Again at least a 50 day window before harvest. If one is not battling with an infestation the dosage and the rate of application should be sparse.
It raises the point that it’s use is prolific as well know. I hear of people online using it almost up to harvest.
Well in that case they’re smoking azadirachtin which is an endocrine disruptor. Nothing systemic should be used up to harvest. Something like pyrethrin should serve better in flower as it will easily break down under lights. This is my opinion tho, haven’t used it yet. Growing some pyrethrums now.
I should add to this that the 50 day degradation time applies to soil drenches. I forgot to write that. The azadirachtin compounds stay in the soil for a longer time thus creating a constant uptake of azadirachtin by the roots. In a spray form, this window should be narrower as there wont be a constant supply which plant cant take up. But still 50 days is the window to me. I only spray at veg and a soil drench a week before flip. This ensures that in the next 50 days the plant will have some kind of protection but at the end the product will be fairly, if not completely, clean.
My buddy sent me that same link. This guy has zero credentials or even any research to make such a claim- it his hypothesis. I find it funny that he would blame something like neem when people are still spraying things like avid, eagle, forbid, floramite..... And have been even before 2004 or whatever he claims for the arrival of chs. This guy has no clue as to what people are spraying on the bud he smokes..... He is a “blogger” who smokes weed- doesn’t even grow. I’ve been growing and smoking for over 20 years and have NEVER known or personally heard of somebody having CHS. It’s this kind of misinformation that people lacking real knowledge latch onto.
I think if taken broadly, with a critical eye, it's alright. I agree that most will latch onto these things and not get the real information from reliable sources. Do you have a hypothesis on the cannabis emisis theory? Is there even statistics showing any new phenomena? Not to bug you, asking because i know you're reliable and honest.
I don’t have any idea what causes chs. I find it strange that I haven’t personally come across anyone who had/has it. I would think I would have if it was caused by something like neem/azadirachtin? Azamax and other neem products are approved for use on cannabis in more than a few states so have definitely been tested- even for combustion, which produces different substances than if say ingested. Myclobutanil( eagle, nova) for example produces hydrogen cyanide when burnt, hence the banning on cannabis. WhAt toxic substances are produced when abamectin or spiromesifen are burned? Those are just a few of the many super toxic pesticides that are used on cannabis still. Even spinosad isn’t allowed and that’s a very natural substance so clearly there’s something that came up in testing(if it has in fact been tested- probably not....cmon DOW). It (neem/aza) isn’t allowed here in Canada for use on cannabis so maybe something came up or ,likely, it just wasn’t tested to get approval. Super limited on what we’re allowed tho - insecticidal soap, bacterial products and canola oil
I just use neem and/or karanja cake helps with fungus gnats. I've seen people eat some of the raw neem cake. Doesn't mean it was safe in just not going to concern myself with a blogger until there's far more evidence.
Who cares about chs and 50 days. Neem tastes like shit forever.
Can't believe people think all oils are safe to smoke because they came from a plant. When will they realise Cannabis is special and not to be tainted.
Grow healthier plants, stop using band aids. Simple.
That has nothing to do with what you are allowed to use. Labeling is what it comes down to. They arent out there testing these things on big cannabis crops to what is acceptable. Since the labels don't list the crop specifically or only label it for greenhouse/outdoor/ornamental use. Technically you are using a pesticide off label which gets into some big ass fine territory and can get your business shut down. Why pretty much most of the products you can use are registered as a 25B exemption. Like you said about E20. It's not that they tested it and found that to be true in the end product of dried weed. It's the lack of testing and the concern it brings up in concentrates which falls on the companies (E20 can be sprayed on grapes 14 days before harvest. Think about that next time you drink some wine) Being that pesticides fall under EPA in the US where a lot of these companies are from and weed is still schedule 1 here you wont see a test like that anytime soon or anything on their labels about weed. If they choose to take that route in another country most likely their products will be banned for sale here.
Look at the Azatrol stuff that happened. That was approved for years until Oregon (https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Documents/CannabisPesticideAdvisories/Azatrol.pdf) tested it and found all sorts of pesticides that were not on the label and banned to use in the industry. Same thing with Mighty Wash (https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Documents/PesticideAdvisoryMightyWash.pdf - in this case it had to do with ingredients that were active and not on the label) If the "testing" was done that would have never been approved and then pulled. The only thing that gets tested is ingredients vs what is listed on the label. Half the time this is well after it is approved for use.
Edit: Well looks like Azamax also got pulled for having bifenthrin and permethrin (https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Documents/2018Advisories/AzaMax.pdf). Also Evergreen got popped and pulled for having piperonyl butoxide (https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Documents/2018Advisories/Evergreen.pdf) My statement holds true. As you can see OMRI doesnt mean shit on a bottle.
lol, been saying this for a decade and people still don't believe it.
Quality content brotha thank you. I’m not going to attempt to speak on issues I know little about.... My point was only that it’s unknown what causes CHS in certain people. Why blame neem with zero evidence when there’s still lotsa black market weed being sprayed with all kinds of shit. I’ve never known of anyone with CHS, have you? It would seem it’s extremely rare or possibly confined to a small region which, to me, would suggest something used more so in certain areas cuz I’ve only ever read about it online never known or heard of anyone having it. And I remember the days when people were spraying avid, floramite, benomyl, myclo, konk bug bombs mid flower without a second thought. And of course people are still making concentrates w the black market pesticide tainted weed further concentrating the toxins. Lol just thought about it, when they make fruit juice from concentrate w non organic fruits they’re concentrating the pesticides there too lol. But it’s ok on food since those palms have long since been greased by lobbyists n donors....
And azamax???? Say it ain’t so lol. I like azamax.... I use it on my personal crop. synthetic pyrethroids???? Wtf. Like I said, up here we’re only allowed to use a few things: insecticidal soaps, some listed agricultural oil sprays, and some bacterial products (botaniguard etc). Those are the only ones that have been tested, approved, labeled and listed(cannabis listed on label) for LPs in Canada. Here canna laws are federal so a product has to meet health Canada’s criteria (testing,labeling etc) and fda standards to be used. The list of allowed products is very small since HC approval costs millions and so far the bigs guys (Dow , bayer) haven’t pushed for any of their products listing likely for the reasons you’ve cited (don’t wanna ruffle any feathers stateside). It ain’t worth it the Canadian market is small,our entire country has less people than Cali. I still say spinosad WILL eventually be approved for cannabis since it’s listed for tobacco already but Dow will likely wait until US federal legalization. Peace
@PharmHand Yeah brotha. Sad to see. I used Azatrol for a lot of years (still have half a gal) and saw this come up. The useful products are dropping like flies. The thing going on with neem products is a whole different conversation. Most everyone gets their neem from he same sources so It might be a source contamination. The other thing is they are testing down to parts per billionth on some of these thing so It could also be cross contamination from a doff crop by the source. Now weather they are intentionally putting these substances is the mix time will tell. This could also be were the supposed CHS from these products are coming from but that is doubtful. From what I understand its trace amounts they are finding of the pesticides. As far as CHS holds true the one thing you have to remember is a lot more non smokers are smoking now. Not mention you have a lot of commercial companies producing product that have to get it to market no matter what so that comes with some shady business. Some of these crazy stories you hear that sound like total bullshit might actually be true in some cases. They run PSA's on the radio here about edibles cause normies were eating 500mg chocobars and going to the hospital thinking they were dying. No joke.
That PSA thing should be a damm standard lol. Imagine smoking once a year and eating a 500mg brownie I would think I was dying too haha
Haha. Heavy smoker, consumer over here too.... I like to think I have a high tolerance but some edibles do me right in. My wife makes us edibles and I’m always the guinea pig. Certain strains, the more sativa dominant, have made me feel like I should go to the hospital lol. My body don’t like that uplifting high, I wanna be sedated. I couldn’t imagine being a first time user eating edibles not knowing what to expect. There’s no turning back once it’s digested/absorbed just gotta ride it out haha
Say what you want. People I know who have smoked product where been was only used have had these issues and never before. I never had so I have to go off their experience. Use the shit if you want I won’t be smoking your flowers anyways. But me and mine, we don’t have bugs, so we don’t use shit except for purecrop1.
The toxicity study cited was about a guy who drank 20 ml of Neem oil. Hardly an indictment of usage as instructed. The main article frankly strikes me as bullshit. There is no cited research, no technical theory of toxicity, just his emotional linkage between CHS and neem oil usage.
I've used azamax periodically over the years. Never had a problem, nor has anyone I have shared with. Azamax and Neem oil are pretty widely used. If there was a link, shouldn't there be an epidemic of CHS? But there isn't.
Make your own choices. Since azadachtrin operates by interrupting a metabolic pathway found only in sucking insects, I am uninclined to get too worried. The Oregon ban was about having pyrethrin ( another relatively safe bug killer, organic, derived from chysanthemums) in the product but not on the label, not about any newly found danger.
The real danger is dihydrogen monoxide, which is in almost every liquid nute and bug product, and is proven to be deadly to humans and animals. Focus, people.
Man I wanted to say that but theres so many bottle people here I was scared I'd get some hate lol
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