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ORGANICS FANATICS..........even veganics!

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ORGANICS FANATICS..........even veganics!

caveman4.20 108 Replies 10,366 Views
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DO YOU use.........

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caveman4.20

caveman4.20

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#1
What up farmers?....im so curious how radical you are with your standard of organic......would you use something thats natural or only things that have once been alive....or is being inside or alongside something living good enough?
From what i understand many minerals are natural but not organic because they were never alive but minerals derived from kelp which was alive is organic?

And veganic is it really that big of a difference not using poops even worm poop is not good ? what about insect frass is that veganic?

any how this thread is another place for FANS of the organismic approach to share and its in this Advanced location cuz im hoping for some veterans to kick down some knowledge......
 
#2
Im hoping a science guy could explain on a common farmer level this whole cation exchange ion and cation and whatever else is in there and how it works in living soil with no chemicals at all ....
 
#3
No scientist, but cations are positively charged particles and anions are negative. Opposites attract and when the two meet, the anion absorbs the cation. Good example is clay, it had lots of negative charge and attracts plant nutrients such as calcium, iron, potassium, hydrogen, and a couple others. But clay also repels some nutes such as nitrate, phosphate, sulfate... thats another reason why having a balanced soil is important (clay, silt, sand).Z
 
#4
Cation exchange is important for plants and how thier roots can intake various nuteZ. They can switch thier charge to accept diff nutes. They use, im pretty sure, hydrogen (H+) to make an exchange. This is how plants recieve their food. The exchange takes place only at certain places in the root system. The number of these places are calles the cation exchange capacity (CEC). The higher ur cec, the more nutrients ur soil can hold.
 
#6
caveman4.20 said:
Im hoping a science guy could explain on a common farmer level this whole cation exchange ion and cation and whatever else is in there and how it works in living soil with no chemicals at all ....
Click to expand...

This is actually very simply put.

Living soil has chemicals in it.

Everything in the universe is made of chemicals. All of it. Okay I mean I guess its more complicated if we get into physics--but thats not a worthwhile discussion on a cannabis forum. No one wants to hear about baryons mesons and gluons here. Or do they?

Don't get me started.

Some of these simply come from stuff that used to be living--and generally that is what we call "organic" in this community.

In the scientific sense, all of the ions and such that you add with chemical fertilizers still participate in the field organic chemistry. Which is to say that they change the reactivity of, react with, or associate with carbon-containing compounds.

When it comes to organic chemistry anything that touches or plays with carbon is participating in organic chemistry.

When it comes to organic nutrients these should really be called bio-nutrients--but they still VERY MUCH participate in organic chemistry. The same way "chemical" ferts do.

Another way to say it:

It's all the same shit, man. It comes from a different place.
 
#7
Theoneandonly Z said:
Ph for me is still a great debate. I believe that microbial life will balance ph naturally. But right now im balancing my ph at different numbers throughout the week. Im testing a theory that i can achieve better nutrient uptake by differing the ph. No conclusion yet.
Click to expand...

It will do this--what it's important to remember though is that microbial life will only do this within reason.

If you pour pH 3.0 water on an organism that, for lack of a better way to say it, dies from pH 3.0 water--its not going to adjust a damn thing.

There are tolerance levels that are acceptable. Even if you're going organic I still recommend checking your pH now and again. What if you end up with a bloom of microbes that are adjusting your soil pH to a level that is WONDERFUL for them--but kills your plants.

The important understanding here is that different stuff likes different pH levels.
 
#8
I fluxuate from around 5.9 to 6.5. I agree with u, however i rarely check the ph of my soil and almost never my run off. Reason being is because my plants are happy. Sometimes when i over analyze and tweak a thing or two, it has a negative affect... so unless i see a problem, i dont need to go the extra mile. If problems start, thats when i run my checklist.
 
#9
Theoneandonly Z said:
I fluxuate from around 5.9 to 6.5. I agree with u, however i rarely check the ph of my soil and almost never my run off. Reason being is because my plants are happy. Sometimes when i over analyze and tweak a thing or two, it has a negative affect... so unless i see a problem, i dont need to go the extra mile. If problems start, thats when i run my checklist.
Click to expand...

I don't check runoff or soil pH either unless I see a problem.

I definitely stick with the KISS method.
 
#10
Also scared to leave it just up to the microbes for the same exact reason u stated. I grow killer roots, not trying to make a certain microbial life happy. Just try to keep the balance. Do my ph up and down kill microbes?
 
#12
Theoneandonly Z said:
Also scared to leave it just up to the microbes for the same exact reason u stated. I grow killer roots, not trying to make a certain microbial life happy. Just try to keep the balance. Do my ph up and down kill microbes?
Click to expand...

In moderation they shouldn't.

Generally speaking when I'm brewing my teas I find I've gotta use pH up. The pH down (if its phosphoric) might hurt bio life a bit--but in small enough amounts I can't imagine its a huge problem.

The reason phosphoric acid hurts so much is that its a triprotic acid and it stabilizes pH at weird values (because it loses only one proton at a time--or to say it another way it loses each hydrogen ion in a step-wise fashion).
 
#13
It all boils down to herding microbes from brewing ACT...if you're going to invest the time and money..your food (soil mix) or bottled shouldn't kill off your hard work.
The only goal here is to produce some refined dank that taste great.
Over-thinking it never does any good...the best practice is to start with a solid realistic feeding regimen...and tweak it over time..experiment with lowering or removing components and see what exactly they do for your plants. As for poop..well if ya ever used too much guano in your mix..you sure can taste it in the end product. I wouldn't dismiss them for philosophical rights..but better to learn how to utilize without distorting the end product.
As for the tap water...not me..but I end up having to add-back cal-mag. ...As for PH, I've been known to use semi-organic bottled nutes such as Age Old, G.O., etc. I use liquid dolomite lime when I do. The guys cooking super-soil, mix in a buffer such as powdered lime. The guys running a living soil are depending more on the herds of microbes as their main watering is either plain or ACT..which is semi-buffered at the onset. The problem with living soil technique is that it can be expert level becoming a bit more complicated and definitely more work. IMO compost is likely the most dangerous part of LS...with the possibility of introducing bugs to your indoor crops.
 
#14
Natural said:
It all boils down to herding microbes from brewing ACT...if you're going to invest the time and money..your food (soil mix) or bottled shouldn't kill off your hard work.
Click to expand...

Precisely.
 
#15
caveman4.20 said:
What up farmers?....im so curious how radical you are with your standard of organic......would you use something thats natural or only things that have once been alive....or is being inside or alongside something living good enough?
From what i understand many minerals are natural but not organic because they were never alive but minerals derived from kelp which was alive is organic?

And veganic is it really that big of a difference not using poops even worm poop is not good ? what about insect frass is that veganic?

any how this thread is another place for FANS of the organismic approach to share and its in this Advanced location cuz im hoping for some veterans to kick down some knowledge......
Click to expand...
We have two issues with regard to the term organic, perhaps three. We have the layman's definition of organic, which is rather variable. We have the scientific definition of organic, which is quite precise. Then we have the LEGAL definition of organic, and this is guided by science.

I'm working towards attaining organic registration with the state, and ultimately certification for my market garden, so I'm becoming very familiar with the legal definition of what qualifies as 'organic' in food production, which is the closest corollary I think we cannabis cultivators wish to look to. It starts here in the US with the NOP (National Organic Program) standards. Internationally, there's iFOAM (International Federation of Organic Movements), which is looking to set internationally accepted standards that can be used any/everywhere, not just in rich countries.

Veganics is another realm within organics entirely, IMO, and the discussions have been had here on this site (including with one Matt Rize). I think there is room for 'veganics' but personally don't see the need. Where I do see a problem is with those non-renewable products--minerals--and how they're acquired. This is one area where I think veganics would serve us humans better in the long run.
Theoneandonly Z said:
Also scared to leave it just up to the microbes for the same exact reason u stated. I grow killer roots, not trying to make a certain microbial life happy. Just try to keep the balance. Do my ph up and down kill microbes?
Click to expand...
No, not if they're mixed into a water column first. However, pH Up should not be necessary IF you have hard tap water.

But, let's have a short discussion about the water as an example of conflict within organic cultivation. If you're using reverse osmosis-filtered water, that, does that fit in with the concepts put forth by the standards set forth? When we consider that a huge part of certification must include soil erosion prevention, as well as a plan to build soil UP, as well as water conservation plans, we have to ask ourselves where does reverse osmosis fit into this scheme? I fear that, technically, it doesn't. Will I use my unfiltered tap water for my indoor cultivation? No, I won't. Outside I absolutely do, and my production plants so far don't suffer for it. But, since mine is very high in carbonates and general hardness, I must be aware that a problem very well may arise in the future.
 
#16
Seamaiden said:
No, not if they're mixed into a water column first. However, pH Up should not be necessary IF you have hard tap water.

But, let's have a short discussion about the water as an example of conflict within organic cultivation. If you're using reverse osmosis-filtered water, that, does that fit in with the concepts put forth by the standards set forth? When we consider that a huge part of certification must include soil erosion prevention, as well as a plan to build soil UP, as well as water conservation plans, we have to ask ourselves where does reverse osmosis fit into this scheme? I fear that, technically, it doesn't. Will I use my unfiltered tap water for my indoor cultivation? No, I won't. Outside I absolutely do, and my production plants so far don't suffer for it. But, since mine is very high in carbonates and general hardness, I must be aware that a problem very well may arise in the future.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. I have always been unsure about base and acid doing contradictions to my goal in soil life. Ive always wondered about ph-ing my ACT, but usually it sits at 6.4 after its brewed. Say if i want to adjust it, would it be better if i mixed my ph down in a small cup of water and then apply to the tea (or any other nutrient concoction), instead of adding it directly to my solution?

Besides that, Sea im very interested in how your organic qualifications turn out with the state. I feel that a thread as such will be very informative and also motivational. (I would like to get an organic cert on my fruits and veggies also)

I also use tap water on my outdoors. Indoors i use a carbon and sediment filter for dechlorination and to rid metals. I dont use RO any more, i feel it was a hydro shop sales pitch(in a way, i understand why those running hydro set ups find RO systems real beneficial). I grow in soil and it doesnt suit my needs.

Right now im using about 75% organics and 25% synthetics. Working on a balanced combination that will bring great taste and aroma along with a big yield. I use synthetic nitrogen supplements (NO3-) for its availability for plant uptake. It doesnt need to be attached to soil particles and is taken in directly from a nutrient solution. Nitrogen creates aminos. I use other non organics thats why ACT is important in my weekly regimen... i think im rambling now... good morning by the way!Z
 
#18
Well, Z, if you really are looking to attain certification, you've got a lot of reading to do, and that's just to start! It's really about record-keeping and planning as much as anything else, and after the problems we've experienced in our food chain with fresh veg & fruit (Listeria and E. coli, etc) that have resulted in deaths, I no longer bitch about the government, its 'interference' or the need for all this God damned motherfucking paperwork. I grasp, fully, why it's needed, because I tell you what, if it were one of *my* loved ones that died or became very ill I would be expecting my government to be able to figure out what happened. Not going on like what's happening in China with the fucking dead pigs floating down a river. Tens of thousands of dead pigs, and officials say, "Oh! the water is perfectly safe to continue using as your drinking water." Uh huh. And the check's in the mail, too, you swear.


Jesus, that was a rant. Hey, you didn't just start tokin' a joint, too, didja? ~~=== <--- I have no idea what it is. I've got a very few branches of last year's harvest that I was allowed to keep by the... what do I call them? Rippers? That's too mild. Robbers? Oh well. It's got some good purple in it, but it wasn't marked, so hell if I know what it is.

But basic to know about doing the organic farming/production is that here in California the farm is both registered with the state as an organic farm, either certified by an outside certifier (CCOF), or following organic methods and practices and backed up by farm records. I can see this nicely dovetailing in with our new cottage food production law, which many would argue goes against what I just discussed above. I still think it can be done, and be done safely.

Ok, so.... onto pH adjusting your tea--IMO if it's always landing at 6.4 that's exactly where I would leave it. But, if it doesn't, then I would handle the adjustment in one of two ways--I would either sacrifice some of those microbes, take out a gallon or two and put the adjuster in that, then add it back (this works best if you know volumetrically or by meter exactly where to pH that body, or how much to use) to the main column, OR I would simply use some more water to add the pH adjuster, and then add that back to the tea.

Know that high NO3 levels in plant tissues are demonstrated to result in diminished flavor and Brix. I'm only just beginning to play around with plant sap pH levels and Brix as a method/means to achieve best quality plants. I'll let you know if I ever hit the point where I can discuss it intelligently. There's a really good video that I saw a couple of years ago or three that I've spent the past... 20 minutes trying to find, and I can't. Just start searching on Brix as a measure of plant health, and then plant sap pH. I've read a good bit, I'm just not grasping the whole picture very well.
 
#20
Yes Sea is absolutely correct, too much NO3 will diminish taste and or aroma. I also found that excessive nitrogen leads to airy buds. I was toying around and tested a couple plants through flower. I think boredom or adult ADD is to blame for my unnecessary curiosity lol.

As far as my organic cert, wont strive for another year for i have recently moved to cali and my fruit and veg garden isnt adequate to provide my local farmers market. Did it in the pnw for a short time and alot of locals had the organic cert which made consumers a bit more comfortable. Thanks for the input, would love to hear how it goes for you. Welp time for that spliff. Z
 
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