Oh My God, He Turned It INSIDE OUT!!!

[AlterNation]

Just FYI, that thread I linked to isn't mine, specifically. It was just something I found, when I was contemplating an "amphitheater" style scrog with two half moons that fit together to make an inclined sort of "bowl" shape. I'm about to start building out a new locale and have been high on Cap's wall-o-dank, among some other methods I've seen here, so things like this have my ears turned on.

ttystikk, man...you got it dialed. Best of luck, can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[AlterNation]

One Flip, btw, Wavegem does mention that there is some loss of lumens due to the liquid bending the light, but at last update (so far as I have read) he hadn't done any direct comparisons or testing to see exactly how much light was being lost. I would imagine that the benefits outweigh the loss, there, given how close he's able to get the lights to the plants.

 

[AlterNation]

There was a question about starting or ending at 21". That's the bulb to trellis distance. The diameter of the trellis is 42", and I'll train the plants along and around that.

As far as I plan on using/modifying that design I linked to, the idea was to get a 2' light to trellis distance, with about 6" of buffer and an 18" deep canopy. I'm pretty sure I've seen Cap say that about 18 - 24" away from the lights is ideal, with 50" from tree center to center. Don't quote me, I've been wrong about a lot of things lately, but those are the numbers in my head. Sounds like you have it right.

I, too, have been going back and forth between scrog or trees, shrubs or hedges, bare or air cooled, etc, etc., so this project is of particular interest to me.

 

[ttystikk]

One Flip, btw, Wavegem does mention that there is some loss of lumens due to the liquid bending the light, but at last update (so far as I have read) he hadn't done any direct comparisons or testing to see exactly how much light was being lost. I would imagine that the benefits outweigh the loss, there, given how close he's able to get the lights to the plants.

His best guess when we discussed this before was somewhere between 10 and 15% light loss thru the cool tubes. That sounds plausible to me. If one bare thouie doesn't work, two water cooled ones surely would!

 

[ttystikk]

As far as I plan on using/modifying that design I linked to, the idea was to get a 2' light to trellis distance, with about 6" of buffer and an 18" deep canopy. I'm pretty sure I've seen Cap say that about 18 - 24" away from the lights is ideal, with 50" from tree center to center. Don't quote me, I've been wrong about a lot of things lately, but those are the numbers in my head. Sounds like you have it right.

I, too, have been going back and forth between scrog or trees, shrubs or hedges, bare or air cooled, etc, etc., so this project is of particular interest to me.

Lots of factors come into play when discussing light to plant distances. One big difference between my cylinder design and all others is that it's designed around a moving light fixture, not a stationary one. This directly affects light to plant distances, since the moving light will not burn plants at distances closer than can be survived by stationary placements. This, to me, is the main reason to do a light mover in the first place- otherwise, why bother?

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

His best guess when we discussed this before was somewhere between 10 and 15% light loss thru the cool tubes. That sounds plausible to me. If one bare thouie doesn't work, two water cooled ones surely would!

ya water is no bueno. Cool tubes work fine with just the air flow but IMHO, your better off bare bulbing it. you might find it easier to cool as well. I like the fan sitting vertically under the bulb idea. ive seen good things come from such. Z

 

[Medusa]

This is an awesome concept Tty, Can't wait to see u light it up !

 

[One Flip]

Can you put a hepa filter or something similar when you pull air through the tubes? Or is there any other way you can avoid cleaning the glass?

 

[Capulator]

As far as I plan on using/modifying that design I linked to, the idea was to get a 2' light to trellis distance, with about 6" of buffer and an 18" deep canopy. I'm pretty sure I've seen Cap say that about 18 - 24" away from the lights is ideal, with 50" from tree center to center. Don't quote me, I've been wrong about a lot of things lately, but those are the numbers in my head. Sounds like you have it right.

I, too, have been going back and forth between scrog or trees, shrubs or hedges, bare or air cooled, etc, etc., so this project is of particular interest to me.

60" centers/

Lots of factors come into play when discussing light to plant distances. One big difference between my cylinder design and all others is that it's designed around a moving light fixture, not a stationary one. This directly affects light to plant distances, since the moving light will not burn plants at distances closer than can be survived by stationary placements. This, to me, is the main reason to do a light mover in the first place- otherwise, why bother?

how are you going to access the canopy on the inside?

 

[ttystikk]

ya water is no bueno. Cool tubes work fine with just the air flow but IMHO, your better off bare bulbing it. you might find it easier to cool as well. I like the fan sitting vertically under the bulb idea. ive seen good things come from such. Z

If they didn't work, Wavegem's grow wouldn't look like it does. I'm a practice, not a theory kind of guy; the evidence is clear that they work. Well. Will they do everything? No, but nothing else does everything, either. It's all about the right solution for the problem.

 

[Capulator]

I originally posted this in Alternation's thread:

You had mentioned in my thread that what you're doing and what I'm doing are about the same. While the vertical approach is similar, our systems have a lot of differences. Chief among these is that in the round cylinder of the design I'm working on, there will be no relatively dark spots in corners, or at either end. The reason for this is that your bulbs are stationary at a set distance from the canopy- far enough that stationary bulbs won't burn the plants. By contrast, my bulb is closer to the trellis, it is the same distance to all parts of the trellis- being round- and it is positioned close enough that if the light mover fails, the light will likely burn plants.

I'm not going to say what mine will produce, since i haven't done any runs with it yet. Therefore mine is not 'better', just 'different.' Have you done an exact count of the square footage of canopy space in your design? This became a critical measurement for my design; setting the desired distance between bulb and trellis also dictated the overall diameter. To be more specific:

24" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 4', total area is pi x 4' = 12.5 feet by 4 feet tall = 50 sq ft

21" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 3.5', total area is pi x 3.5' = 11 feet, by 4 feet tall = 44 sq ft

18" from bulb to trellis = diameter of 3', total area is pi x 3' = 9.4 feet by 4 feet tall = 37 sq ft

I chose the middle option since I'm designing the whole thing around the light mover; too close if the bulb doesn't move, but big enough for good growing space.

I think you are going to need more space between the bulb and the trellis. If you plan on keeping things tied close to the trellis, that's fine, but the branches will want to grow out and toward the bulb. That's why I asked about the access. Having a hinged cylinder will not work once the plants are all tied in. You will need to access form the top and the bottom. Stretch of the branches is one part of it, but when the flowers are developing they stretch out as well. Make sure you take this in to account. I look forward to your progress on this idea. I assume you will be LSTing the plant and then taking leaders up the cylinder.. It would be nice if you could build this all on a frame with casters and have a quick connect for your buckets. Otherwise, you will need to veg for a considerable amount of time in your flower room.

 

[ttystikk]

Can you put a hepa filter or something similar when you pull air through the tubes? Or is there any other way you can avoid cleaning the glass?

IME, this kills the airflow too much. The only way to avoid cleaning glass is to design it out of your grow altogether, which is what I'm doing. You never have to clean a light mover...

 

[ttystikk]

I think you are going to need more space between the bulb and the trellis. If you plan on keeping things tied close to the trellis, that's fine, but the branches will want to grow out and toward the bulb. That's why I asked about the access. Having a hinged cylinder will not work once the plants are all tied in. You will need to access form the top and the bottom. Stretch of the branches is one part of it, but when the flowers are developing they stretch out as well. Make sure you take this in to account. I look forward to your progress on this idea. I assume you will be LSTing the plant and then taking leaders up the cylinder.. It would be nice if you could build this all on a frame with casters and have a quick connect for your buckets. Otherwise, you will need to veg for a considerable amount of time in your flower room.

Hey Cap! Great to have you stop in! To address your concerns; the design is meant to allow for buds to grow 6" towards the light from the trellis. I will get away with a 15" bulb to bud distance only because the light will be moving, and relatively quickly; I'm shooting for 3-5 cm/second, or 1-2 minutes for one full 4' up down and back up cycle. I know it works at this distance as I have done it before.

This is actually the whole crux of the concept of moving the light, right here; if the bulb is already far enough from the plants that it won't burn them, what's the point of moving it? On the other hand, if the bulb IS that close, what benefits accrue? I can already answer that one; super strong growth, vigorous health and stanky sticky buds! The idea is to increase the DLI by moving the light and having it come so close, over and over, all day long. We'll see how it works!

The hinge is not meant to allow the whole thing to swing wide open like a door, only enough for someone to squeeze through. Each of two plants will stay in its own half, so no branches will grow across the opening point.

The rolling table idea only made sense to build if it fit thru the door, and it definitely is not going thru a 30" doorway! I do like the idea, and I love the quick disconnect idea, too!

The way I'm getting around a long veg time- or any veg time at all, for that matter- is to install my plants at about 16" in height, then LST during stretch. The strain is super silver haze, SSH should be called SST because it grows so dammed fast- I personally have caught this strain stretching 4" A DAY. The 3.5 feet from such a freshly installed bush to the upper corners of each trellis is well within the stretch capabilities of this strain. Other, less stretchy stains will no doubt require extra veg. time.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I would look at some of Heath's grows for before jumping on that, he has built a few threads doing similar. If thinking as a engineer why create problems? I am a firm believer in KISS. One bulb inside holding heat,Heat rises moving air, hard to control RH%,Co2. Plant lit from 1 side, not as good. I Hate screens I feel it inhibits branch strength and growth. But a vert scrogg with double hung bulbs lit on both sides offset would eliminate popcorn and air movement common to growing trees. control rh, airflow, control hotspots etc. If you have a hard on for light movers you can float them up and down the rows. Hope you enjoy what ever you build,JK

 

[ttystikk]

I would look at some of Heath's grows for before jumping on that, he has built a few threads doing similar. If thinking as a engineer why create problems? I am a firm believer in KISS. One bulb inside holding heat,Heat rises moving air, hard to control RH%,Co2. Plant lit from 1 side, not as good. I Hate screens I feel it inhibits branch strength and growth. But a vert scrogg with double hung bulbs lit on both sides offset would eliminate popcorn and air movement common to growing trees. control rh, airflow, control hotspots etc. If you have a hard on for light movers you can float them up and down the rows. Hope you enjoy what ever you build,JK

In nature, plants are lit from one side- above... I see ventilation being almost automatic due to the shape, adding a fan at the bottom will just help things along. That also solves the rh and co2 issues, this really seems like a better solution for ventilation than anything else I can think of.

When thinking as an engineer, one thinks about how to make things better. If this works, great. If not, I bet I will know how to make it work for next time. Just following the KISS rule is not engineering- making a system work better is.

If I have a 'hard on' for light movers, it's because I know they work. Why do you have such a hard on for telling me they won't?

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I never said they would not, I believe it putting the light where it belongs and cover my heat with A/C. When your light is elsewhere it is not doing its job where it is not. I have seem some spinning lights that would work great over my fast growing veg plants. But since they have no 5 year plus warranty I feel I would be buying more problems then cure. I wish you no ill on your project, you asked what people thought, don't get made if people do not feel you have the prettiest girl in the world. I know they are wrong about mine but I do not get upset about it. Suerte JK

 

[paperplane]

Light movers do indeed 100% work. The main problem I see with growers who try and use light movers is that they try and make the light move back and forth too far. You only want the light to move about a foot each way.
Is the OP refering to like a Octagon grow? If so those rock I have a buddy who rocks multiple octagons with 3k in cool toobs down the middle. Those plants produce nice fat dense nuggs all the way down.

 

[ttystikk]

I never said they would not, I believe it putting the light where it belongs and cover my heat with A/C. When your light is elsewhere it is not doing its job where it is not. I have seem some spinning lights that would work great over my fast growing veg plants. But since they have no 5 year plus warranty I feel I would be buying more problems then cure. I wish you no ill on your project, you asked what people thought, don't get made if people do not feel you have the prettiest girl in the world. I know they are wrong about mine but I do not get upset about it. Suerte JK

You just made the same assumption about light movers everyone else has- and you didn't bother to ask me if I had thought of it. THAT'S what makes me grumpy.

I don't have the problem you suggest. Don't believe me? Do a little geometry and see for yourself when and how any spot in that canopy will get inadequate light at any time. You won't find one.

 

[ttystikk]

Light movers do indeed 100% work. The main problem I see with growers who try and use light movers is that they try and make the light move back and forth too far. You only want the light to move about a foot each way.
Is the OP refering to like a Octagon grow? If so those rock I have a buddy who rocks multiple octagons with 3k in cool toobs down the middle. Those plants produce nice fat dense nuggs all the way down.

I'm no stranger to light movers and their challenges. Yes, this is similar to an octagon grow, but smaller so that one bulb- moving 4 feet vertically in this case-will provide all the light energy necessary.

Cooltubes down the middle is another solution to this same problem- what I'm doing with the slightly smaller overall size and the light mover is to try and maximize yield per watt, and eliminate shading.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I have no problem with the light, it is enclosing the light in the plant. It creates more minus then plus's. I can see using a regen blower into a humid lung room (plenum) Then use some pvc to support the plant and dispurse CO2/humidity enriched chilled air to create your micro-climate.This would help fight the light. But look up heath robinsons grow's as he punched out some weight in similar setups. I try to keep it simple as it helps to fix itself later. That is a 10' length of herb you want to fill with a plant. I hope you knock it out of the park but your going to have to help that girl out a lot. JK