shaggyballs
- 120
- 28
small amt.'s of raw ingredients here
http://www.mbferts.com
http://www.mbferts.com
Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients
sealed138
First Starfighter
Supporter
- 794
- 143
Swany
- 245
- 43
Thanks for the share - good looking source ;-}
I
ilovestrongkush
- 8
- 3
So it seems this person in the article seems to think that "Clearex" is more than just sugar water. Also, the proportions used when compared to the solution of MgSO4 and glucose @2g/gal are very different. He uses table salt, baking soda and glucose to replicate the "Clearex". Interesting stuff. I wish I had enough room to do a side by side.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
My own recipe for 'Clearex' is 2 dry grams per gallon each of both table sugar and Epsom salt. Dissolve in a little hot water before I drop it in the res, works like a champ and I'm not changing... especially for the money. 80 grams of each is what I use for a typical res. change, that's pennies!
Final step is to pH the system to about 6.0... and the ladies will be ready in as little as 4 days. I don't do any of the crazy heavy feeds of this or that, so typically there isn't an excess of nutes to flush from the plants anyway.
I thought about changing up my nutrient regimen until night before last, when I harvested colas thicker than my thigh. So I'd say it's not my nutrient regimen that's holding me back here! LOL
I
ilovestrongkush
- 8
- 3
Right on man. Was just pointing out the differences to see if anyone could chime in. Also, I believe that link to either be Spurr's website or a disciple of his. I have never been able to get into it, but Spurr is the one who created the Hydrobuddy program, if I am not mistaken. I haven't looked at it much, but it looks powerful in the right hands. Also, just to be fair, Spurr's (I think it's his) flushing formula (clearex alternative) looks like it would be cheap as hell also. I was mainly interested in why you use Magnesium Sulfate as opposed to Sodium Bicarbonate and Salt. Just curious is all. I'm no scientist so I have to rely on the more educated. Thanks for the reply.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
Magnesium and sulphur are both nutrients, and at least sulphur figures in trichome production and resin production. Sodium is always bad for plants as far as I know, and bicarbonate is calcium in a form that will screw up your pH- I don't need either of those at the end, thanks. Table salt? Back to the sodium thing, not sure what's with that... chloride is an accepted additive in small micronutrient size quantities, but not at flush.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
I pH to 6.0 because I have been for awhile and it's been working, lol.
I use table sugar to feed the plants a bit and build brix right at the end, and to give them the energy to use up whatever remaining nutrients might be in their tissues. I see no reason to think the girls don't keep adding weight, even now this close to the end of the cycle. I know for a fact they get frostier!
If I haven't already, flush is when I open the door to the sealed room, cut the co2 entirely and let the humidity drop.
I use table sugar to feed the plants a bit and build brix right at the end, and to give them the energy to use up whatever remaining nutrients might be in their tissues. I see no reason to think the girls don't keep adding weight, even now this close to the end of the cycle. I know for a fact they get frostier!
If I haven't already, flush is when I open the door to the sealed room, cut the co2 entirely and let the humidity drop.
shaggyballs
- 120
- 28
spurr replied
Hey again Daniel,
I wanted to let you know, I posted a message at a forum I visit that was promoted by this blog post of yours. My post discusses dissociating exchangeable cations from CEC sites (with protons) in media with high CEC, ex., soilless media such as s.peat moss or coconut pith/coir (i.e., hydroponic growing). My message was in response to a question someone posted about using isotonic solutions, such as Clear-X (I gave him the URL of your isotonic blog post) … the topic was so-called “flushing” prior to harvest.
Here is the sum of what I wrote, in case you are interested and see any inaccurate info I wrote:
Note: I do not practice so-called “flushing”, that is, irrigating with large volume of water, relative to volume of substrate. However, this post was written from the point of view that I would use flushing as a rule.
————————————————————————
IIRC, in terms of pH, cations, percent base saturation (PBS) and CEC (cation exchange capacity), acidic pH will help dissociate exchangeable NH4, Ca, Mg, etc., from CEC sites by replacing them at some CEC sites with protons from hydrochloric acid, for example. HCL [1,2] acid or sulfuric acid [3] are good for low pH flush because they provide protons to reduce PBS; and do not provide a whole lot of cations we are trying to remove in the first place. After flushing with low pH (ex., 4.5), flushing with RO water is wise to remove residual ions from root zone and to reduce excess acidity. Thereby reducing the percent base saturation by removing some exchangeable cations (those from CEC sites) when flushing, which could have been taken up by the plant, had they been dissociated naturally.
I recall reading some time ago, a study or two looking at alkaline pH effects on cations at CEC sites. IIRC, very high pH, ex., 9, can also lower percent base saturation by helping to dissociate some cations from CEC sites. But don’t quote me on that, maybe ask Mr. Fista, he’s studying organic chem.
Good excerpt:
Cation Exchange Capacity
J.D. RHoades (1990)
U.S. Salinity Laboratory
Riverside, California
from:
METHODS OF SOIL ANALYSIS Part 2: Chemical and Microbiological Properties (Second Edition)
A.L. Page, Editor
R.H. Miller, Associate Editor
D.R. Keeney, Associate Editor
American Society of Agronomy, Inc.
Soil Science Society of America, Inc.
Publisher
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Quote:
“Cation exchange capacity (CEC), usually expressed in milliequivalents per 100 g of soil, is a measure of the quantity of readily exchangeable cations neutralizing negative charge in the soil. These charges may be viewed as being balanced by either (i) an excess of ions of opposite charge and a deficit (or negative adsorption) of ions of like charge, or (ii) the excess of ions of opposite charge over those of like charge. Methods of CEC determination based on either view (when they are correctly carried out) yield identical results, though different proportions of the various exchangeable cations are obtained when such are determined by methods based on the two views (Bolt et al., 1976).
The negative charges [CEC sites] in soil constituents are derived from isomorphous substitution within the structures of layer silicate minerals, broken bonds at mineral edges and external surfaces, dissociation of acidic functional groups in organic compounds, and the preferential adsorption (by chemical reaction) of certain ions on the particle surfaces. The first of these four types of matrix charge is permanent charge and is independent of the pH value, the valence of the counter-ion, and the electrolyte level or composition of the bulk solution. The remaining three types of variable charge vary in magnitude depending on the pH value, electrolyte level, valence of the counter-ion, dielectric constant of the medium, and nature of the anion in the solution phase. Another source of variable charge in acid soils is that associated with the neutralization of permanent negative charge by strongly adsorbed aluminum-hydroxy polymers that carry positive charge. As the pH value rises, these polymers are precipitated as bulk Al(OH)3, thereby freeing the negative sites for participation in normal cation exchange reactions. Negative sites can be similarly neutralized by the adsorption of positively charged mineral particles, such as iron oxides. The positive charges on such particles originate from the specific adsorption of protons on the oxide/hydroxide surfaces, and their magnitude depends critically on the ionic strength and pH of the solution. Such charge is substantially neutralized at pH =>7. Another kind of neutralization of permanent charge is that caused by highly selective adsorption associated with the mica silicate minerals, such as biotite, vermiculite, and muscovite, which contain K and NH4 between the contracted platelets. These interlayer cations are not readily exchangeable, although they can be desorbed with certain chemical treatments and through weathering.
Thus, it is obvious that CEC is not a soil property that is independent of the conditions under which it is measured. Different results will be obtained with different methods. Ideally the method to use is one that meas-ures the soil’s capacity to adsorb cations from an aqueous solution of the same pH, ionic strength, dielectric constant, and composition as that en-countered in the field, since CEC varies (especially in tropical soils) with these parameters. It is seldom practical to determine the CEC of each soil sample with reagents appropriate to its specific field solution conditions, since the latter information is not easily obtained and each CEC determination would require unique reagents. For this reason CEC determinations are generally based on reference solution conditions that must be standardized to obtain data that can be applied and interpreted universally. The method used should always be reported with the data.”
References:
[1] Note: Cl (chloride) ppm should be less than ~30-50 ppm in solution, lower is better. In nature, Cl is found upwards of 10 ppm in top soils near oceans, usually as NaCl. Cl is ubiquitous in nature and plants need (small amounts of) Cl. That is why flushing with low pH water, using HCL is fine. I think it’s better than flushing with sulfuric acid because HCL is only likely to provide Ca (in terms of cations we are trying to dissociate from CEC sites). But both should work just fine.
[2] “Effect of nutrient solution pH regulated with hydrochloric acid on the concentration of Cl ions in the root zone in soilless culture of tomato”
Waldemar Kowalczyk, Jacek Dysko and Stanislaw Kaniszewski
J. Elemontal. 2008, 13(2): 245-254
http://www.uwm.edu.pl/jelementol/poj…/jurnal-10.pdf
[3] See posts by Quantrill: h t t p :// www. gardens cure. com/420/plant-food-nutrients/113389-hydrochloric-acid-ph-down.html
- See more at: http://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...-and-better-clearex.html#sthash.S1owc7az.dpuf
Way above my head
Hey again Daniel,
I wanted to let you know, I posted a message at a forum I visit that was promoted by this blog post of yours. My post discusses dissociating exchangeable cations from CEC sites (with protons) in media with high CEC, ex., soilless media such as s.peat moss or coconut pith/coir (i.e., hydroponic growing). My message was in response to a question someone posted about using isotonic solutions, such as Clear-X (I gave him the URL of your isotonic blog post) … the topic was so-called “flushing” prior to harvest.
Here is the sum of what I wrote, in case you are interested and see any inaccurate info I wrote:
Note: I do not practice so-called “flushing”, that is, irrigating with large volume of water, relative to volume of substrate. However, this post was written from the point of view that I would use flushing as a rule.
————————————————————————
IIRC, in terms of pH, cations, percent base saturation (PBS) and CEC (cation exchange capacity), acidic pH will help dissociate exchangeable NH4, Ca, Mg, etc., from CEC sites by replacing them at some CEC sites with protons from hydrochloric acid, for example. HCL [1,2] acid or sulfuric acid [3] are good for low pH flush because they provide protons to reduce PBS; and do not provide a whole lot of cations we are trying to remove in the first place. After flushing with low pH (ex., 4.5), flushing with RO water is wise to remove residual ions from root zone and to reduce excess acidity. Thereby reducing the percent base saturation by removing some exchangeable cations (those from CEC sites) when flushing, which could have been taken up by the plant, had they been dissociated naturally.
I recall reading some time ago, a study or two looking at alkaline pH effects on cations at CEC sites. IIRC, very high pH, ex., 9, can also lower percent base saturation by helping to dissociate some cations from CEC sites. But don’t quote me on that, maybe ask Mr. Fista, he’s studying organic chem.
Good excerpt:
Cation Exchange Capacity
J.D. RHoades (1990)
U.S. Salinity Laboratory
Riverside, California
from:
METHODS OF SOIL ANALYSIS Part 2: Chemical and Microbiological Properties (Second Edition)
A.L. Page, Editor
R.H. Miller, Associate Editor
D.R. Keeney, Associate Editor
American Society of Agronomy, Inc.
Soil Science Society of America, Inc.
Publisher
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Quote:
“Cation exchange capacity (CEC), usually expressed in milliequivalents per 100 g of soil, is a measure of the quantity of readily exchangeable cations neutralizing negative charge in the soil. These charges may be viewed as being balanced by either (i) an excess of ions of opposite charge and a deficit (or negative adsorption) of ions of like charge, or (ii) the excess of ions of opposite charge over those of like charge. Methods of CEC determination based on either view (when they are correctly carried out) yield identical results, though different proportions of the various exchangeable cations are obtained when such are determined by methods based on the two views (Bolt et al., 1976).
The negative charges [CEC sites] in soil constituents are derived from isomorphous substitution within the structures of layer silicate minerals, broken bonds at mineral edges and external surfaces, dissociation of acidic functional groups in organic compounds, and the preferential adsorption (by chemical reaction) of certain ions on the particle surfaces. The first of these four types of matrix charge is permanent charge and is independent of the pH value, the valence of the counter-ion, and the electrolyte level or composition of the bulk solution. The remaining three types of variable charge vary in magnitude depending on the pH value, electrolyte level, valence of the counter-ion, dielectric constant of the medium, and nature of the anion in the solution phase. Another source of variable charge in acid soils is that associated with the neutralization of permanent negative charge by strongly adsorbed aluminum-hydroxy polymers that carry positive charge. As the pH value rises, these polymers are precipitated as bulk Al(OH)3, thereby freeing the negative sites for participation in normal cation exchange reactions. Negative sites can be similarly neutralized by the adsorption of positively charged mineral particles, such as iron oxides. The positive charges on such particles originate from the specific adsorption of protons on the oxide/hydroxide surfaces, and their magnitude depends critically on the ionic strength and pH of the solution. Such charge is substantially neutralized at pH =>7. Another kind of neutralization of permanent charge is that caused by highly selective adsorption associated with the mica silicate minerals, such as biotite, vermiculite, and muscovite, which contain K and NH4 between the contracted platelets. These interlayer cations are not readily exchangeable, although they can be desorbed with certain chemical treatments and through weathering.
Thus, it is obvious that CEC is not a soil property that is independent of the conditions under which it is measured. Different results will be obtained with different methods. Ideally the method to use is one that meas-ures the soil’s capacity to adsorb cations from an aqueous solution of the same pH, ionic strength, dielectric constant, and composition as that en-countered in the field, since CEC varies (especially in tropical soils) with these parameters. It is seldom practical to determine the CEC of each soil sample with reagents appropriate to its specific field solution conditions, since the latter information is not easily obtained and each CEC determination would require unique reagents. For this reason CEC determinations are generally based on reference solution conditions that must be standardized to obtain data that can be applied and interpreted universally. The method used should always be reported with the data.”
References:
[1] Note: Cl (chloride) ppm should be less than ~30-50 ppm in solution, lower is better. In nature, Cl is found upwards of 10 ppm in top soils near oceans, usually as NaCl. Cl is ubiquitous in nature and plants need (small amounts of) Cl. That is why flushing with low pH water, using HCL is fine. I think it’s better than flushing with sulfuric acid because HCL is only likely to provide Ca (in terms of cations we are trying to dissociate from CEC sites). But both should work just fine.
[2] “Effect of nutrient solution pH regulated with hydrochloric acid on the concentration of Cl ions in the root zone in soilless culture of tomato”
Waldemar Kowalczyk, Jacek Dysko and Stanislaw Kaniszewski
J. Elemontal. 2008, 13(2): 245-254
http://www.uwm.edu.pl/jelementol/poj…/jurnal-10.pdf
[3] See posts by Quantrill: h t t p :// www. gardens cure. com/420/plant-food-nutrients/113389-hydrochloric-acid-ph-down.html
- See more at: http://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...-and-better-clearex.html#sthash.S1owc7az.dpuf
Way above my head
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
I'm sooooo not flushing with hydrochloric acid! Wtf? I think we need to get Squiggly in here to explain to us mortals what is going on here.
I
ilovestrongkush
- 8
- 3
So I'm still kind of lost as to why table salt and baking soda are used in this "Flush" by Spurr, or am I just totally misinterpreting this? Sorry if this is off topic.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
Not off topic at all and I would like to know, too!
squiggly
- 3,277
- 263
You can, it just needs to be dilute enough.
As the article says it's all about cation (positively charged ion) exchange.
Acids provide protons (the most basic positive ion H+) and these can help to displace other cations we're trying to get rid of.
Also as the article says, you can use a basic solution and achieve the same effect. Instead of focusing on displacement this relies more on positive-negative (polar) interactions.
End of the day the true explanation for all of this is fairly advanced and has a lot to do with thermodynamics/kinetics. Heady stuff.
So really look at it this way (like the article says). You can flush through with an acid or a base to try and get rid of some of the salt buildup (if it was me I'd hit it with an acid solution first, then hit it with a basic one next time to cover all bases)--and then run RO water through.
To be clear, don't run an acid solution followed by a basic one. This could produce salt and cause an acid/base neutralization in your medium. Flush with plain water between these treatments if you choose to use both.
Your plants can handle very dilute HCl--just don't treat them with it without following up with some RO.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
Squiggly! Thanks for the clarification, my brother! Now, why might I want to do this instead of the flush that at least appears to be working fine? Would this approach help flush faster? What would be the advantage to using dilute solutions of strong acids?
Btw, I think my Mad Farmer pH down is hydrochloric acid, will have to check.
Can you speak to the flush formula that includes baking soda and table salt? At first blush, this seems dangerous both to the health of plants and to the bacterial balance of my rdwc system?
C
cctt
- 318
- 43
Has anyone been adding any fulvic acid to their dry salt regimens? I see customhydronutrients has it in bulk, as well, and I'm used to running a little GH Diamond Nectar. Can't go wrong with chelation, right?
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
If I tried it, how would I know it's helping?
I
ilovestrongkush
- 8
- 3
So a quick look at customhydronutrients tells me they sell products with low prices. Are they worth it? They also have a nice little write up on their 1 LB. soluble fulvic.
Theoneandonly Z
- 1,342
- 263
I just recieved a product calld aurAlive sm/pm-wash. its only active ingredient listed is hypochlorous acid. it is supposed to eradicate spider mites and powdery mildew... the dude said it has many other uses such as cleansing/disinfecting and also can be used as a flushing agent... smells like a mild chlorine solution (hence the hypocholours acid..) It isnt my style and im not willing to test it atm. Squiggs whats the drop on using that in the garden? Im positive it will destroy all the bennies that ive built up.. in soil and on leaf surface
Capulator
likes to smell trees.
Supporter
- 6,070
- 313
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