harvesting healthy plants

[We Solidarity]

hey guys, I've been talking to lots of professional horticulturalists and master gardeners of many different types of plants. They are all telling me that plants should be green the whole way through. That green is proof you will get an optimum harvest.

People are telling me flushing plants will lower your yield, increase the chances of disease, and result in a poor-tasting and poor-looking product.

what i've come to realize is that no one is smoking tomatoes, oranges, apples, grapes, tulips, roses, or hydrangeas. I've always noticed my buds get bigger during flush (i'm assuming because the roots are growing as well, searching all over the media for nutrients. this growth would also contribute to why the plants yellow out).
I've also always assumed that nitrates and phosphates, since they are explosive in their raw form, would be the last thing you would want to smoke. Sure, if i was eating the fruit of the cannabis bush I'd want all those vitamins and minerals in there...but alas i'm combusting it.

This is one of the only major cash crops in the world (i can only think of two more - hey aren't tobacco leaves ready when they are yellow, too?) that is grown to be smoked, not eaten or looked at.

I really want to know if there is anyone out there harvesting their plants while they are in full health, who can contribute info as to their yields and the taste of the meds.

 

[MakinGoo]

I've smoked weed when harvested fully dark green & they ALWAYS taste like shit.. I mega flush my plants till the change colors like yellow or red & even purple & the plants always taste better when harvested with less green..

I'd say ur rite on with the way u see it. Those people ain't growing weed

 

[paulycali]

Great thread for sure. I'd like to hear what others have to say as well. I believe in flushing and really think it provides the highest quality medicine. That's when growing with synthetics like most farmers use. Even if it says all organic it sure is a false statement. Only growing TLO true living organics then it's okay to harvest green plants. I'll keep it short let's hear what others have to say about flushing

 

[Capulator]

I know fatman used to talk shit on yellowing plants at the end of harvest. He said you wanted to feed all the way through. However, I don't believe everything he says. From what I know its a good idea to drop the N down a bit after stretch. Supposedly it is the abundance of N in the tissue that causes black ash. Less N: white clean ash. This is according to Yosemite Sam who I have a considerable amount of respect for as a grower.

If you are growing flowers, you want to encourage flowering. Now, N is also critical for flowering, so in the end it's all about hitting those perfect ratios all the way through. Healthy plants start from the beginning. You need a perfectly healthy plant all the way through to hit bumpers. Once you stall them, that's it. Like cavadge said its like surfing a wave. Once you fall off... You goota take the time to find another wave to get on.

 

[stanknugzz77]

From what I know its a good idea to drop the N down a bit after stretch. Supposedly it is the abundance of N in the tissue that causes black ash. Less N: white clean ash.

EXACTLY, what the fuck, an OG taught me. Good looking out! Positive vibes...

~nugzz

 

[woodsmaneh]

I have not flushed in the last 15 years and am not about to change my ways. What I do do is cut back on nutrients by half because I don't believe in starving my plants for any reason. So let me just point out that when you flush with just water the first thing to go is N, but wait a minute, when there is no N other elements lock up and can't be flushed. Not so good for you or your plant, not to mention the stress induced by all this. If you just have to flush us at least 25% nutrient in your flush and you will pull more out of your plants than with all the crap out there.

So for those that would like more here you are :cool:

Part 1

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn't be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn't sound likely that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

The claim only ‘chemical’ fertilised plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic fertilised plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.


Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

 

[woodsmaneh]

Part 2 :)

Trans-location:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the trans-location process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans located through the phloem. Immobile elements can’t be trans located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root-zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Trans-location is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins; most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu

Summary:

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or over fertilization and improper drying/curing.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

What immobile nutes are needed the last few days? Most people that have problems with the taste is usually harvested too soon and not dried properly and little time to cure. I like my plants lime green/yellow at harvest, dark green bud(with some strains exempted) taste like crap I see in the shops,grown by non educated money seekers. JK

 

[Quantum9]

hey guys, I've been talking to lots of professional horticulturalists and master gardeners of many different types of plants. They are all telling me that plants should be green the whole way through. That green is proof you will get an optimum harvest.

People are telling me flushing plants will lower your yield, increase the chances of disease, and result in a poor-tasting and poor-looking product.

what i've come to realize is that no one is smoking tomatoes, oranges, apples, grapes, tulips, roses, or hydrangeas. I've always noticed my buds get bigger during flush (i'm assuming because the roots are growing as well, searching all over the media for nutrients. this growth would also contribute to why the plants yellow out).
I've also always assumed that nitrates and phosphates, since they are explosive in their raw form, would be the last thing you would want to smoke. Sure, if i was eating the fruit of the cannabis bush I'd want all those vitamins and minerals in there...but alas i'm combusting it.

This is one of the only major cash crops in the world (i can only think of two more - hey aren't tobacco leaves ready when they are yellow, too?) that is grown to be smoked, not eaten or looked at.

I really want to know if there is anyone out there harvesting their plants while they are in full health, who can contribute info as to their yields and the taste of the meds.

I am also of the oppionion that "stressed" plants cannot produce the yeild or potancy of "optimal" ones.

Personally i think the myth began because so few people were able to grow healthy plants durring bloom that they decided it was a good thing.

All of the 4+ lb per light rooms i have run were healthy through harvest. The flavor is amazing as well, but then again we rarely break 200 ppms of nutes, so whats the point of a flush when your already in tap range?

 

[IPlay4Keepz]

I am also of the oppionion that "stressed" plants cannot produce the yeild or potancy of "optimal" ones.

Personally i think the myth began because so few people were able to grow healthy plants durring bloom that they decided it was a good thing.

All of the 4+ lb per light rooms i have run were healthy through harvest. The flavor is amazing as well, but then again we rarely break 200 ppms of nutes, so whats the point of a flush when your already in tap range?

You don't break 200 ppm during the flushing phase or all through out flowering? I am asuming its during the last 2 weeks. Thanks -Keepz

 

[Quantum9]

Rarely break it the whole run.

 

[Reebs]

ahhh, the "Flush" conversation...:rolleyes:

 

[reloader]

I always flush the last two weeks. It makes sense to me to flush out all the nutes that you have been adding the last 6 weeks. My plants never look starved for food, as I'm sure their is enough nutrient residue & traces left that, the plant will do fine for the last 2 weeks.
As for what the op said about flushing lowering your yield, is not true. Most marijuana plants have reached full size (or close) at 6 weeks, they need the last 2 weeks to finish getting fully ripe. Flushing or not would have nothing to do with size. Also yellowing is natural and can depend upon the strain & conditions. I get some plants that yellow out more then others, but they are still healthy & produce.

 

[Natural]

Been at this for years and still experimenting..last time I harvested healthy plants and I felt could of been better...this round bout to finish is super faded. Will know in a few weeks, but buds look larger and just as pretty with a good fade. Something to be said with consistent low feeds and salt build-up. I think it is a balancing act for each phenotype...that's where mono-cropping is efficient. Some phenos will barely drink anything in the last weeks while others keep on drinking.

 

[Quantum9]

I always flush the last two weeks. It makes sense to me to flush out all the nutes that you have been adding the last 6 weeks. My plants never look starved for food, as I'm sure their is enough nutrient residue & traces left that, the plant will do fine for the last 2 weeks.
As for what the op said about flushing lowering your yield, is not true. Most marijuana plants have reached full size (or close) at 6 weeks, they need the last 2 weeks to finish getting fully ripe. Flushing or not would have nothing to do with size. Also yellowing is natural and can depend upon the strain & conditions. I get some plants that yellow out more then others, but they are still healthy & produce.

See what i mean?

 

[Quantum9]

I have not flushed in the last 15 years and am not about to change my ways. What I do do is cut back on nutrients by half because I don't believe in starving my plants for any reason. So let me just point out that when you flush with just water the first thing to go is N, but wait a minute, when there is no N other elements lock up and can't be flushed. Not so good for you or your plant, not to mention the stress induced by all this. If you just have to flush us at least 25% nutrient in your flush and you will pull more out of your plants than with all the crap out there.

So for those that would like more here you are :cool:

Part 1

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn't be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn't sound likely that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

The claim only ‘chemical’ fertilised plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic fertilised plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.


Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=jeb biologists org pdf&channel=linkdoctor

how come they always look like this then?

 

[Natural]

^^that's exactly what my "super-flushed" looks like. Only issue I've had was when i didn't neem or sulphur vaporize..cause with some phenos..the "dead leaves" actually invite bud-rot (the ones @ the colas).

 

[Quantum9]

Yes, but this thread is questioning that reasoning.

That was not my pic, it was woodsman's

 

[Natural]

Yes, but this thread is questioning that reasoning.

That was not my pic, it was woodsman's

Yes..I recognize his room. I think this a bit too flushed..sometimes cannot be helped to prevent it from getting this far because of the strain or heat. I like less dead and more yellow..or purple..or even red. It's a balancing act for sure!

 

[Oregon Panda]

Mobile nute in the leaves went into the calyxes. It explained why they look like that...

I dont flush, but I dont add soluble nutes at all. Even so, some strains finish fall colors anyway. I really think its strain specific.

The slow low temp dry is so important, then a nice 2 month cure in glass... Oh yeah.