4x4 vs 3x3 Beds?

[Theoneandonly Z]

Is a 4'x4'x12" bed really worth the space and medium? can i save space and medium and still get the same results with a 3'x3'x10" bed? Im talking sq footage in beds, not canopy space.

Ive been running 4x4 beds personally for over a year and have found it easy and very convenient. Im in the planning stages of a new grow and have been thinking about going with smaller beds. In my 4x4 bed i have been able to hit gpw consistently. My light footprint for each bed is about 5'x4.5' Now ive been able to hit my gpw (or close to) for years and I was mainly using fabric 5 gal pots. I found that nine 5gal pots under the same footprint can give me consistant yields (4-5 week veg on those) The 4x4 has been great, low maintanince, watering once every other day with very little run off. but I am using about 3 times the amount of medium to fill my bed!! I started looking into cubic feet of medium used and with my 9 5gal pots i use roughly 4.5 cubic feet of medium. In my 4x4x12" bed, it takes 16 cubic feet to fill. I only use about 10" in depth of medium so in my case it takes me 13-14 cubic feet of medium.

So what im trying to say is that I successfully and consistently hit my gpw using 4.5 cubic feet of medium (in 5 gal pots). Now in my 4x4 bed i still hit gpw+ but i have increased my medium usage by 3x...

Taking that into consideration while i plan this new grow, ive been thinking about using 3x3 beds with a depth of 8" of medium = 6 cubic feet. This is still more medium used compared to my individual 5 gal pots but there are plenty of trade-offs going on there. I plan on using a 4'x5' light spread but want to utilize every single sq foot of canopy space with virtually no loss of light. So by using 3x3 beds, i can utilize more work space down below in between beds and use less medium to fill them.

Just curious to anyones thoughts on downgrading in size of beds. In logic it only makes sense to me.

I would also like to thank fellow farmers @obsoul33t @true grit @RIVAL79 @JACKMAYOFFER @midwestdensies @delae632 @GR33NL3AF @Confuten1 and everyone else that has contributed their experiences w/ indoor bed growing. I know im forgetting some peeps out there! these guys are just a few that come to mind. Z

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Man... 12" beds of Peat suck! I'm breaking mine down after this run and going back to 7-8", I think 7 inches is the sweet spot. However, it sounds like you run larger plants so your root systems may be substantially greater and in turn require more depth.

I believe you can maintain your yield with the 3x3's....If anything you may have to water more, no biggy.

Set it up and bring it back to the farm, I would like to see your results:nailbiting:

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

Man... 12" beds of Peat suck! I'm breaking mine down after this run and going back to 7-8", I think 7 inches is the sweet spot. However, it sounds like you run larger plants so your root systems may be substantially greater and in turn require more depth.

I believe you can maintain your yield with the 3x3's....If anything you may have to water more, no biggy.

Set it up and bring it back to the farm, I would like to see your results:nailbiting:

thnks for the input
ya bro, 12" was horrible my first bed run, it lowered it to 10" after it settled. ive been using around 8" for the past couple runs, but also experimenting with different amounts and sizes of perilite, even adding up to 50% coco at times.. <<didnt like so much.

im cool w/ watering as often as needed, just a matter of pushing a button:D

im thinking yields should be the same as well. guess we will see:cigar:

 

[delae632]

Do you reuse your soil? I used the same soil for 1.5 years before switching it out, which saved me a lot of money. I didn't see a single problem until the last run with that soil. I stopped using ACT the last run which I believe was the problem. You need to use enzymes and ACT religiously to keep the medium dialed in if you're reusing it. I think 2-3 runs in the same soil is fairly realistic if you're not using tea though. Anything more than that and you'll most likely see diminished returns or some funky shit going on. You may want to consider this before scrapping your beds/medium and building new ones.

@JACKMAYOFFER runs pure Canna coco in his beds (he has soil room too but says the coco smashes it). The last I read he was using the same batch of coco for 2 years and still didn't have any issues. He said the coco just gets better...I've heard this from several others as well.

@HumboldtDr is smashing in the GeoPot bed liners or GeoPlanters as well. I believe he's doing soil, coco/peat, and pure coco (all reused for up to 2 years last I checked).

Hopefully some more of these bed lovers can chime in and give their .02!

@GrowMaster and @manicgrower need to get in on this too.;)

To address your question though...lol I personally think 3'x3'x10" is probably the smallest you want to go and really only makes some sense if your not reusing your medium.

 

[SpiderKid]

Have you ever tried mapito ?

 

[tweedy]

I think it all comes down to how many ladies you're throwing in there. If you are concerned about them choking each other out, I look at it as if the bed what the bed would be in equivalent volume. I think you end up with about 66 gallons with a 3x3x12 so I dont see why cutting two inches would hurt anything and if you did 5 plants theyd each be getting 13 gallons of medium. Start to play with numbers and you end up finding out what your max plant count be as I'd never go below a 5 gallon container for flower unless it was coco or something similar where roots never seem to get too upset being confined to 3 gallons a piece or even 2 gallons.

 

[manicgrower]

Im growin in 4x4 flood trays lined with Smart pot liners, which are 7" I believe. Ive never grown in soil beds(although, I have grown in hydroton beds) but the coco beds are smashin pots. Not only is re-usin your coco safe, IMO your hurtin your yields if you arent re-usin it. I first started by tryin out one 4x4 bed for a couple rounds. I since switched everything over to coco beds. The first bed I set up consistently out yields and is more vigorous than the other "younger" beds. Just by looking at em you see a drastic difference! Every round is better than the last! Im convinced that the media gets better with age. Throwing out all those beneficial bacteria and other goodies you've worked so hard to maintain, seems counter productive to me..

Im speakin generally. Not to anyone specific..

 

[manicgrower]

Oh and since this is a 4x4 vs 3x3 thread. I gotta say, 4x4 or even 5x5 per 1k watt is the way to go!

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Ya, im leaning towards 5x5s but for single bud growing...If youre letting them bush out youll be fine with 3x3, just fill the 4x4 area...

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

Do you reuse your soil? I used the same soil for 1.5 years before switching it out, which saved me a lot of money. I didn't see a single problem until the last run with that soil. I stopped using ACT the last run which I believe was the problem. You need to use enzymes and ACT religiously to keep the medium dialed in if you're reusing it. I think 2-3 runs in the same soil is fairly realistic if you're not using tea though. Anything more than that and you'll most likely see diminished returns or some funky shit going on. You may want to consider this before scrapping your beds/medium and building new ones.

@JACKMAYOFFER runs pure Canna coco in his beds (he has soil room too but says the coco smashes it). The last I read he was using the same batch of coco for 2 years and still didn't have any issues. He said the coco just gets better...I've heard this from several others as well.

@HumboldtDr is smashing in the GeoPot bed liners or GeoPlanters as well. I believe he's doing soil, coco/peat, and pure coco (all reused for up to 2 years last I checked).

Hopefully some more of these bed lovers can chime in and give their .02!

@GrowMaster and @manicgrower need to get in on this too.;)

To address your question though...lol I personally think 3'x3'x10" is probably the smallest you want to go and really only makes some sense if your not reusing your medium.

whats good D? thanks for tuning in. I do reuse my medium. I used to do throw my left over medium into a kiddy pool and slightly re-ammend with some goods and use within a month or two. This has let me keep a consistent cycle of medium. But after looking at @JACKMAYOFFER 's beds and how he just leaves it kinda blew my mind:wideyed: i was like "your telling me that its fine to just leave the medium in beds this whole time!!??" I havent had the best success with coco so ive been sticking to a majority of peat. but ergonomically its more efficient so im thinking about giving it a whirl again.

I think it all comes down to how many ladies you're throwing in there. If you are concerned about them choking each other out, I look at it as if the bed what the bed would be in equivalent volume. I think you end up with about 66 gallons with a 3x3x12 so I dont see why cutting two inches would hurt anything and if you did 5 plants theyd each be getting 13 gallons of medium. Start to play with numbers and you end up finding out what your max plant count be as I'd never go below a 5 gallon container for flower unless it was coco or something similar where roots never seem to get too upset being confined to 3 gallons a piece or even 2 gallons.

Whats up @tweedy ? to be honest, i was pretty baked when i posted the original question. after i re read my post i realized it didnt make the most of sense... See im mapping out a 25x20x18 room. My first rough drafts i used 4x4 beds in rows bur realized it left virtually no room for access. So i started wondering about the need of cubic feet of medium per bed. I also made a mistake by dedicating each bed with a light fixture. I understand that you "light the room not the plant" So while mapping this room out, i realized i could save space for access in between rows of beds by using 3x3 beds. But ive never ran these and this is what brought upon my original question. Also i feel that if my light foot print is 5x4 @ 3' above canopy then i dont need a 4x4 bed to fill that space... i dunno anymore:cigar::cigar:

Im growin in 4x4 flood trays lined with Smart pot liners, which are 7" I believe. Ive never grown in soil beds(although, I have grown in hydroton beds) but the coco beds are smashin pots. Not only is re-usin your coco safe, IMO your hurtin your yields if you arent re-usin it. I first started by tryin out one 4x4 bed for a couple rounds. I since switched everything over to coco beds. The first bed I set up consistently out yields and is more vigorous than the other "younger" beds. Just by looking at em you see a drastic difference! Every round is better than the last! Im convinced that the media gets better with age. Throwing out all those beneficial bacteria and other goodies you've worked so hard to maintain, seems counter productive to me..

Im speakin generally. Not to anyone specific..

@manicgrower - buenos dias hombre, yo i agree with that. ive been happy with beds, really been able to produce some happy plants. Ive only ran 4x4 beds and have had great success. damn 5x5's would be sick, but thats too big for me, i like to be able to reach all my plants and having access on both sides of a 4x4 is hard to deal i could only imagine reaching over into a 5x5!! i would be all like:

 

[midwestdensies]

I rip the plant out by the main rootball, Cannazyme double strength and put new cuttings in a day or so later. Need a couple bags of medium to top off generally. If using a smaller footprint I'd suggest less plants so the root zone isn't choked out so much. The canopy should be able to be manipulated to the size you want no problem. I'd go for it.

 

[lino]

I've been noticing your Beds. This technique Has me re-thinking some of my grow practices. I have a cpl question and a comment.
Do you use any moisture drainage system in the beds? I was looking at a pic in another thread and the bed appears to be completely sealed.

moisture constancy - do you hand water this set up? Do you use Rain Tube Gauge? to make sure no water does not accumulate in low spots with in the Beds or soil absorb variance problems with in Bed mixtures.

My comment of intrigue: I found it very difficult to maintain Mycorrhizae at optimum levels and soil performance in pots. Even 25 gal pots do not make use of the Mycorrhizae mechanisms that can facilitate mycorrhizal networks between plants. Your grow mediums do seem to exploit that but this Indoor Bed system has potential for increased mycorrhizal networks between plants.
Also of interest is the potential for my rain forest strain of Mycorrhizae to colonization, and develop Larges mycorrhizal networks in these bed systems. This would end my heated storage of bagged rainforest Mycorrhizae.

4'x4'x12" bed? I'm thinkN like my GF, bigger is better
with elevated planks of wood between plants for me to walk on, Soil compaction is the worst thing for Mycorrhizae .

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

I rip the plant out by the main rootball, Cannazyme double strength and put new cuttings in a day or so later. Need a couple bags of medium to top off generally. If using a smaller footprint I'd suggest less plants so the root zone isn't choked out so much. The canopy should be able to be manipulated to the size you want no problem. I'd go for it.

MWD long time no clown sesh! ya like i said, jackmayoffer took me to school when i saw that. Ive been treating my left over kind of like a compost. i removed my root balls, but let sit for up to 2 months. i did use AACT on it to increase/keep my microbial populations, also to help breakdown some ammendments i throw in.
back to the beds though, In my 4x4 i fit 12-16 plants. Im seeing that i can reduce my veg time and still hit gpw. If i use 3x3 beds, i would only run 9 plants in each bed which IMO would need maybe a week or two in veg to hit the same numbers... this could be my downfall on the smaller beds.

I've been noticing your Beds. This technique Has me re-thinking some of my grow practices. I have a cpl question and a comment.
Do you use any moisture drainage system in the beds? I was looking at a pic in another thread and the bed appears to be completely sealed.

moisture constancy - do you hand water this set up? Do you use Rain Tube Gauge? to make sure no water does not accumulate in low spots with in the Beds or soil absorb variance problems with in Bed mixtures.

My comment of intrigue: I found it very difficult to maintain Mycorrhizae at optimum levels and soil performance in pots. Even 25 gal pots do not make use of the Mycorrhizae mechanisms that can facilitate mycorrhizal networks between plants. Your grow mediums do seem to exploit that but this Indoor Bed system has potential for increased mycorrhizal networks between plants.
Also of interest is the potential for my rain forest strain of Mycorrhizae to colonization, and develop Larges mycorrhizal networks in these bed systems. This would end my heated storage of bagged rainforest Mycorrhizae.

4'x4'x12" bed? I'm thinkN like my GF, bigger is better
with elevated planks of wood between plants for me to walk on, Soil compaction is the worst thing for Mycorrhizae .

@lino - im not sure if u were asking me or someone else. but i will reply as if it was directed towards me. i have my 4x4's bed liners in a 4x4 botanicare trays. my trays have 1" drains on the'm that are used for my run off.

i do use a watering system - 1/2" tubing with drip emiters. I use AACT once a week and hand/crown feed that at concentrate and run h2o after to saturate.

Im not sure what mycorrhize has to do with sizes of beds, but i religously use AACT. I try to improve biodiversity among populations and tend to use different typs of compost and EWC. I also use OG biowar every brew. so im sure i dont have any issues on this subject. actually its made my life so much easier with incorporating it into my regimen. I think everyone should give it a try, foliar or drench. You said it was hard to maintain mycorrhizae levels with big beds?" How are you able to recognize this issue? Do you scope samples to see levels maintained? Just curious because this is a practice i dont do to confirm levels of. I just keep going with the flow assuming my practice maintains great microbial life in my medium.

 

[baba G]

I've been noticing your Beds. This technique Has me re-thinking some of my grow practices. I have a cpl question and a comment.
Do you use any moisture drainage system in the beds? I was looking at a pic in another thread and the bed appears to be completely sealed.

moisture constancy - do you hand water this set up? Do you use Rain Tube Gauge? to make sure no water does not accumulate in low spots with in the Beds or soil absorb variance problems with in Bed mixtures.

My comment of intrigue: I found it very difficult to maintain Mycorrhizae at optimum levels and soil performance in pots. Even 25 gal pots do not make use of the Mycorrhizae mechanisms that can facilitate mycorrhizal networks between plants. Your grow mediums do seem to exploit that but this Indoor Bed system has potential for increased mycorrhizal networks between plants.
Also of interest is the potential for my rain forest strain of Mycorrhizae to colonization, and develop Larges mycorrhizal networks in these bed systems. This would end my heated storage of bagged rainforest Mycorrhizae.

4'x4'x12" bed? I'm thinkN like my GF, bigger is better
with elevated planks of wood between plants for me to walk on, Soil compaction is the worst thing for Mycorrhizae .

Is that tropical hyphae ecto or endo?

 

[midwestdensies]

You could cut veg times down by having some in small containers less than a 1/2 gal, then topping them before moving into beds. Possibly slicing a week or more off that is if you have the space. I'd suggest a bunch of 4-6" square pots on a table with a flood and drain. Hope to see you around brother and catch up this week.

 

[lino]

Is that tropical hyphae ecto or endo?

endomycorrhizae is my center of focus cause of the widely spread and hundreds of plant families and are most commonly represented by arbuscular (previously called vesicular-arbuscular) species whose hyphal-root interfaces look like branches (arbuscule = small tree) or balloons (vesicle = small
bladder). These delicate structures are more commonly associated with the roots of your annual flowers or vegetables. let me find some pics of my cultivar

 

[baba G]

cool, just was making sure it would work in symbiosis with cannabis.

 

[lino]

this is a strain from the largest organism in the world . Located in the cali rain forest , These beds would allow my warm weather mycorrhizae strains to flourish.

 

[lino]

I was thinking a drain would be helpful if not necessary. Thanks for that tip, I'm going to be going thru your threads for more info on Beds.

quote question "Im not sure what mycorrhize has to do with sizes of beds,"
pots do NOT accommodate the Mycorrhizal populations of dynamic - both in the soil and on plant roots; different species may colonize in and on plants at different times of their life cycle. New mycorrhizal infections can develop from nearby active networks, dormant spores, and even infected root fragments. And when soil conditions are changed by activities as simple as adding organic matter, mycorrhizal species composition changes as well. Indoor Beds would be ideal. I dont know why I didnt think of this sooner. Its not like indoor beds were a new concept to me. I learn more from you guys than you'll ever learn from me.

How many cannabis gardens have lifted the mulch to find a cotton web of mycorrhize like you'd see in a vigorous growth forests, You dont see this in pot very often, , but a grow BEDs, that might be a different story, diffidently got me thinkN, Found a king size water bed frame that look like a good start to a cannabis bed.

 

[midwestdensies]

Yes drains should be mandatory but I'm sure someone has a great amended soil recipe somewhere.