Looking for a little help

[jackAamo]

Hi everyone,

Very long time lurker on all of the boards, first time poster. Looking for a little help to diagnose and treat my plants.

I currently have 4 Beanhoarder C99 x Sweet Tooth #3 plants at 35 days from seed that have been showing some issues for almost a week.

Organic soil mix:
40% Pro Mix HP
40% EWC (2)/Composted Cow Manure (1)/Shrimp Compost (1)
20+% Perlite
1.5 cup per c.f Mykes Organic Tomato Food (5-6-8 plus Calcium)
1 cup per c.f Kelp Meal
0.5 cup per c.f Alfalfa Meal

Temps: Constant between 74 - 76F

Lights: 240/160w Full Spectrum LED x2 @ 14 -16" above top

Issues became apparent after using a microbe tea of EWC/Alfalfa/Kelp/BSM that included, and I think this maybe the cause, Aquarium 6.5 PH Stabilizer. I may have also inadvertently used too much of it. Prior to this, all plants had only been watered with either dechlorinated tap water or aquarium water - PH between 6 -6.4

Up until today, plants were in 8" hard pots. I have flushed twice with plain water. Now transplanted to 3 gal Air pots and watered with Aloe.

Please ask if you need any further information and any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[woodsmaneh]

your juice is too strong, the tips are frying right off them ladies.

Might just be me but I kind of see tiny white dots on that fan leaf, have you checked for spider mites? Just a precaution.

 

[jackAamo]

your juice is too strong, the tips are frying right off them ladies.

Might just be me but I kind of see tiny white dots on that fan leaf, have you checked for spider mites? Just a precaution.

Thanks Woodsmaneh. I have thoroughly checked them - no bugs. I agree that I have overdosed them and caused nute burn. I have also realized that the PH strips I was using were inaccurate and my water was very low. I have corrected this and given them them a light watering. Now I just need to be patient and let things work themselves out.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Joe Fresh]

looks to me like a potassium def...not overfert...but thats just my 2 cents..

 

[Tnelz]

Potassium? PH? I've been watering my two plants in promix at 6.0. Had the same problem very early on when I was up around 6.3. Strips r better than nothing but u should at least grab the liquid pH tester. Also no clue about the aquarium stabilizer but I'd chuck it. PH up and down will get u where u need to be. Just my opinion.

 

[jackAamo]

Tnelz I will definitely not be using the 6.5 PH Stabilizer any more and will use a better means of checking my PH.

Joe Fresh I still cant figure out if it is Nute Burn or a K deficiency. There are lots of nutrients in my soil mix and the plants are only 36 days old. There should be lots of K for them. I am pretty sure that my poorly PH'd microbe tea thoroughly messed up the balance and I will just need to keep watering them with neutral water.

I'll keep you posted

 

[Seamaiden]

looks to me like a potassium def...not overfert...but thats just my 2 cents..

It's similar, but I don't think that's it because the pattern is much more even than the K-/+ I've observed. The patches of necrosis tend to go soft and gray first, and are larger and form over more of the leaf surface than what's being shown here. That's why I felt I couldn't say unequivocally that it's a K problem. I feel right now that woodsmaneh has hit the more likely problem and solution.

 

[chikken]

know for a fact your ph is right. having the right ph means everything. this is a great product and thats not a bad price at all. it works great set it and forget it. i calibrate mine about once a month. and it usually is not off.
http://www.amazon.com/Bluelab-pH-Pen-Plant-Germination/dp/B005POOJHG

 

[jackAamo]

I raised the ph of my water with some wood ash (being a Canadian with a wood fireplace, I have an abundance of it this time of year :)) and watered each plant with it. They have perked up a bit. I'll keep monitoring them and keep you posted.

Thank you everyone for your help!

 

[jackAamo]

***UPDATE***

I watered with Dechlorinated water and Wood Ash. The plants seemed to perk up a little and I waited for them to dry out. I then watered with 7.5 Ph water and they again seemed better. They are putting out new growth slowly and there is some minimal discolouration. Plants are greener and looking healthier, but aren't out of the woods yet.

After drying out, I have again watered them. I bought a PH pen and have now learned, to my great surprise, that my tap water is 9.1 out of the tap and 8.0 after sitting out for 3 days. This is much higher than I anticipated. To make matters worse, I realize that I was an idiot and forgot to put lime in my soil mix!!. I believe that this is most definitely the root of my problems. I tested my run-off and all plants were between 5.4 - 5.7. The one at 5.7 is doing the best of the 4. Water going in at 8.0 and coming in the mid 5s certainly proves to me that I need to increase my soil ph and add a buffering agent

Trying to find lime in the middle of the winter, without ordering it online, is proving to be next to impossible. I have a few more places to check and will order online if I strike out. I have some Glacial Rock Dust and Crab Meal on the way. Hopefully the Crab can at least help a little.

What can I do in the meantime to address my PH issue????

On a positive note: At 9 days since being cut, 2 of my 8 clones are showing a ton of roots. I used Jiffy Peat Pellets and fresh aloe as my rooting hormone. The remaining 6 are starting to show signs that they will be rooting soon.:)

 

[chikken]

7.5 water is too high for soil

 

[Seamaiden]

***UPDATE***

I watered with Dechlorinated water and Wood Ash. The plants seemed to perk up a little and I waited for them to dry out. I then watered with 7.5 Ph water and they again seemed better. They are putting out new growth slowly and there is some minimal discolouration. Plants are greener and looking healthier, but aren't out of the woods yet.

Kewl. I did forget to mention previously that, technically, you're in a soilless media, not soil. Soil is 'mineralized.' No matter now, just a small point.

After drying out, I have again watered them. I bought a PH pen and have now learned, to my great surprise, that my tap water is 9.1 out of the tap and 8.0 after sitting out for 3 days. This is much higher than I anticipated.

Holy shit! 9? That's perfect for Lake Victoria cichlids, but not cannabis. Good God, that's almost caustic. You know, you can use that water straight as it is I betcha, should you ever experience powdery mildew, for the high-pH spray that works so well to keep fruiting bodies down. Good Lord! Hold on, gotta get a hold of myself...

To make matters worse, I realize that I was an idiot and forgot to put lime in my soil mix!!. I believe that this is most definitely the root of my problems. I tested my run-off and all plants were between 5.4 - 5.7. The one at 5.7 is doing the best of the 4. Water going in at 8.0 and coming in the mid 5s certainly proves to me that I need to increase my soil ph and add a buffering agent

What's that aquarium stabilizer made with? This isn't making a lot of sense in my head, but clearly something's going on with the chemistry in the root zone. I agree with you that you may need a buffer but honestly, that water should be enough I'm thinking.

Trying to find lime in the middle of the winter, without ordering it online, is proving to be next to impossible. I have a few more places to check and will order online if I strike out. I have some Glacial Rock Dust and Crab Meal on the way. Hopefully the Crab can at least help a little.

What can I do in the meantime to address my PH issue????

On a positive note: At 9 days since being cut, 2 of my 8 clones are showing a ton of roots. I used Jiffy Peat Pellets and fresh aloe as my rooting hormone. The remaining 6 are starting to show signs that they will be rooting soon.:)

Baking soda. Baking soda will drive pH up. Go easy, like REALLY easy, because you don't want the root zone pH much higher than the high 6's range.

Have you done a slurry test? I'd do a slurry just to make absolutely certain you know what's going on IN the root zone, not just what's going in and what's running out.

Slurry test is super easy. Distilled or RO water (you want as close to 0EC/ppms as possible). Measure pH, note that down.
Take samples from all the pots, if you can get top, middle and bottom of the pot that's best. If not, just try to get a couple of areas at least.
Mix with enough water to make a loose slurry. Let set for 7-10mins, then test. THAT is what's happening in the root zone.

 

[jackAamo]

Seamaiden

Thank you very much for keeping tabs on me

I don't know what is in the PH Stabilizer - I can't find the ingredients anywhere. I have used it a lot in my aquariums and it works as advertised. I am no longer using it for my plants.

I will do a slurry test this evening and post the results. Am I correct in thinking that 8.0 water running off at 5.6 means that my soil is around 3.2??????????

How would I incorporate Baking Soda? Should I top dress the soil or add it to a soil drench? This seems like something that could go really wrong, really fast.

 

[Tnelz]

Kewl. I did forget to mention previously that, technically, you're in a soilless media, not soil. Soil is 'mineralized.' No matter now, just a small point.

Holy shit! 9? That's perfect for Lake Victoria cichlids, but not cannabis. Good God, that's almost caustic. You know, you can use that water straight as it is I betcha, should you ever experience powdery mildew, for the high-pH spray that works so well to keep fruiting bodies down. Good Lord! Hold on, gotta get a hold of myself...

What's that aquarium stabilizer made with? This isn't making a lot of sense in my head, but clearly something's going on with the chemistry in the root zone. I agree with you that you may need a buffer but honestly, that water should be enough I'm thinking.

Baking soda. Baking soda will drive pH up. Go easy, like REALLY easy, because you don't want the root zone pH much higher than the high 6's range.

Have you done a slurry test? I'd do a slurry just to make absolutely certain you know what's going on IN the root zone, not just what's going in and what's running out.

Slurry test is super easy. Distilled or RO water (you want as close to 0EC/ppms as possible). Measure pH, note that down.
Take samples from all the pots, if you can get top, middle and bottom of the pot that's best. If not, just try to get a couple of areas at least.
Mix with enough water to make a loose slurry. Let set for 7-10mins, then test. THAT is what's happening in the root zone.

You r really a great woman Ya know. Should u ever find yourself in MA. U have a safe haven here. Just sayin!

 

[Seamaiden]

Thank you, Tnelz. :) I've never been there (yet!), but I want to see the state, hell, the nation.

Seamaiden

Thank you very much for keeping tabs on me

I don't know what is in the PH Stabilizer - I can't find the ingredients anywhere. I have used it a lot in my aquariums and it works as advertised. I am no longer using it for my plants.

I will do a slurry test this evening and post the results. Am I correct in thinking that 8.0 water running off at 5.6 means that my soil is around 3.2??????????

How would I incorporate Baking Soda? Should I top dress the soil or add it to a soil drench? This seems like something that could go really wrong, really fast.

First, it's highly soluble, so I'd use it as a drench. Second, I would only do it IF I find that the media itself is too acidic. Third, I would be careful about driving the water pH up further than that 8 area you said it lands in after aeration, that's a lot more normal for muni tap, but is still far too high for cannabis' growing preferences. What *really* bugs me is that, in soil, 6.5 is a pretty good pH to aim for.

Given your tap water parameters it's not making a whole lot of sense in my head that you're experiencing such a drop of pH, but then you're also using nutrients that I am not terribly familiar with as I'm all organic. IIRC, many chemical salts can cause plummeting pH, especially as they're used up, but I am nowhere near 100% on that. Your tap water should be both alkaline (resistant to pH shift) and is basic pH, and IME if it's very alkaline then it is so due to high levels of carbonates or bicarbonates (baking soda = sodium bicarbonate). If that's the case as I suspect, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to start putting in more carbonates/bicarbonates just yet.

That said, dolomite lime, which you are correct, would buffer your media pH upwards, is calcium magnesium carbonate.

My former work in trade is ornamental aquatics. What brand of pH stabilizer are you using? I can hit up my former contacts, I'm sure one of them will know.

 

[jackAamo]

Seamaiden,

Sorry for the delay. The ph product I use in my aquariums is called Perfect PH 7.0 made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. I am no longer attempting to use it with my plants.

I've been experimenting with ways to lower my water ph with what I have on hand. I've found that adding 1 - 1.5 cups of EWC or compost to a 5 gal bucket of 8.0 ph water brings it down to 6.5 - 6.9. This will be my plan moving forward.

Once I have sexed my plants, I will be moving to SIPs with my fabric pots, so will need to use a cleaner way to lower ph. I understand silica can be useful for this, but I need to do some more research. If necessary, I will use a proper PH Down product.

Once I'm able source some lime, I was planning on top-dressing each 3 gal pot with 1/4 - 1/3 of a cup and top water to try to stabilize each one. I will also be adding 1 cup per cubic foot of soil that I currently have mixed up and waiting to use.

Thoughts?

 

[jackAamo]

Forgot to add:

With the possible exception of the one time application of a tea using the Perfect PH 7.0, everything I am using is organic.

Pro-Mix HP
EWC
Shrimp Compost
Cow Manure Compost
Dry Organic Fertilizer
Kelp Meal
Alfalfa Meal

 

[Seamaiden]

Most Si products that I'm familiar with will drive pH up, not down. But the results you got from the worm castings are PERFECT, and the simplest, BEST solution in my strong opinion. You can't go wrong with worm castings.

I'm familiar with AP products, but a pH of 7 is still a bit too high for cannabis cultivation. 6.8 would be the highest I'd want to see (for indoor cultivation).

I think it's time for me to break out my first bale of Pro-Mix. Never used it before, don't want to buy soil to start my seeds, why not go with the Pro-Mix?

 

[Tnelz]

Most Si products that I'm familiar with will drive pH up, not down. But the results you got from the worm castings are PERFECT, and the simplest, BEST solution in my strong opinion. You can't go wrong with worm castings.

I'm familiar with AP products, but a pH of 7 is still a bit too high for cannabis cultivation. 6.8 would be the highest I'd want to see (for indoor cultivation).

I think it's time for me to break out my first bale of Pro-Mix. Never used it before, don't want to buy soil to start my seeds, why not go with the Pro-Mix?

Had success and moderate failure. Disappointment better describes actually. Since I switched to coco I have a 30 gallon tote filled with. Promix hp so if u give it a go let me know how u r using it so I can possibly follow suit. Thanks sea!

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh FUCK!!!! Fuck fuck fuck! I know better than this! Oh man. So, even though I've never grown using Pro-Mix, I know that the pH range should be a bit lower. Why? It's not soil.

God damn it. I know better than that. I apologize. Look for pH ranges closer to coir cultivation, typically I'm looking to hit a range of 5.8-6.2, with 6.0 being generally THE sweet spot. I do allow ranges outside those parameters, both under and over. Even though you're organic, it's not soil and so there's a limit to what biology existing can do, in my opinion (don't take this as gospel, it's what I *think*). If I were you I'd try a couple of 6.0 feeds and see what happens.

I could just kick myself right in the ass, except my knee won't work that way. Someone can give me a little flip upside the head if they want, just watch the glasses.