Understanding Effects Of Water With High Alkalinity

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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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@scubascrog -- I haven't grown in Roots 707, but based on this, "Peat-based soil with coco to air it up. Peat, coco, perlite, and pumice base" in my opinion, if you're treating this like soil that is a mistake. I would treat it like soilless, and either plan on fully feeding throughout the grow or amending the base product so that there's more of a buffer, nutritionally speaking.

And, you may well be growing fungi, and just don't know it. ;)

If you're using dolomitic lime on top of your pH'd, but not filtered water here, that may also be the source of problems. Consider filtering or even going with RO water here, that will eliminate one source of problems. Given your starting pH and how it drops overnight my guess is that the outgassing of Cl is causing the drop.

Also, consider performing a slurry test instead of using run-off. I personally have found slurry testing to be more accurate and helpful in reversing problems.
 
scubascrog

scubascrog

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right on the nail, but the dolo lime was added after the fact, I'm going to start half feeding twice a week then jsut cal-mag water on the third. I mixed a bunch of perlite in with the 707 and dolo for my 5 gals so I can water more often. also I got like 3 more 5 gallon buckets so now my water sits out for a week to make sure the CL is out.
the damage has stopped progressing but you can see the leaves on the *right side and the other dude on the left I think has been MG hungry its whole life, always an upcurl. new leaves now are starting to even out though, I'm sure its a pissy ww pheno of the white cookies.
imag0317-jpg.561491
 
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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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If you have a lot of DL mixed in, then in my opinion you really do need to use something like RO water here. The carbonates are the issue and now they're in the soil, nothing you can do about that except address the source water.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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I was just using roots 707 and water when I started having these issues, I have them feeding now on age old fish and seaweed 3-2-2 but I think its the coco content in the 707 thats dropping it. now that they have nutrients in the soil it seems to be stabilizing, my calcium content wasn't there in the soil after a lockout so it doubled down on the effect on the lower leaves, (main stalk leaves with the shoot removed big whut whut) but they are getting half doses of cal-mag every watering now until I transplant, then i'll slow off the cal-mag once the roots reach the dolo lime.
And I meant bacteria, Im not using fungus, I use root by RX green solutions jsut added with my last feed (yesterday) fish and seaweed and cal-mag. I will be using PHOS Indonesian seabird guano 0-12-0 in act with this stuff in flower. as well as terpinator for k, does this stuff have k? I though seaweed extract has some in it.
imag0328-jpg.561513
just watch you P numbers mate, once you get above about 100PPM's P, it a bun fight down there. Lignin or coco contains Organic P, your mycos and PBS's will be retrieving this all the time and the added P2O5 may be just making them a bit lazy. Last number is Ave, first two are range, how close to this are you?
Optimum Element Levels
Nutrient Limit in PPM Avg. PPM
Major Elements

Nitrogen 150-1000 250
Phosphorus 50-100 80
Potassium 100-400 300
Minor Elements
Calcium 100-500 200
Magnesium 50-100 75
Sulfur 200-1000 400
Trace Elements
Copper 0.1-0.5 0.7
Iron 2-10 5
Boron 0.5-5.0 1.0
Manganese 0.5-5 2.0
Molybdenum .01-.05 .02
Zinc .5-1.0 .5
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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@scubascrog -- I haven't grown in Roots 707, but based on this, "Peat-based soil with coco to air it up. Peat, coco, perlite, and pumice base" in my opinion, if you're treating this like soil that is a mistake. I would treat it like soilless, and either plan on fully feeding throughout the grow or amending the base product so that there's more of a buffer, nutritionally speaking.

And, you may well be growing fungi, and just don't know it. ;)

If you're using dolomitic lime on top of your pH'd, but not filtered water here, that may also be the source of problems. Consider filtering or even going with RO water here, that will eliminate one source of problems. Given your starting pH and how it drops overnight my guess is that the outgassing of Cl is causing the drop.

Also, consider performing a slurry test instead of using run-off. I personally have found slurry testing to be more accurate and helpful in reversing problems.
Hands down slurry testing is a preferred method over runoff. Much more accurate in readings.
 
scubascrog

scubascrog

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Wow thanks for all the info..
Right now I'm running nutes 15 ml fish and seaweed to 3.5gal @ (3-2-2) and 15 ml cal-mag. 2-0-0 , by the time I add all that my ph is about 7.5 then I add ph down to 6.8 they just got this feeding specifically yesterday with 2 tsp of root.
I started with just half strength cal-mag then after the first time they got fussy I gave em a half strength feed of fish and seaweed. I can check at lights on how they are doing. This is my second run but my first in soil. I learned hydro and it was really easy for me but I'm not growing at my house so I don't want to risk not being there to catch something, especially after dropping like 1500 already on everything.
 
Tobor the 8th Man

Tobor the 8th Man

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Can a soil slurry test show an alkaline ph due to high alkalinity water and the runoff ph be acidic at 5 to 5.5 at the same time?

If you water with water that has a total of 50-60 alkalinity does the soil just stay at that level? Same with 100 alkalinity? I am wondering if it builds up higher than what you put in?

If you had well water with ph 8.2 and ppm of 200 would total alkalinity be predictably high or could it still be in the 50-60 range?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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If you continually water a given body of media with water that's high in carbonates, the carbonate levels will eventually build up, and I recall that it can indeed build up to levels higher than the source water, UNLESS you run 'cleaner' water through it. That water can help act as a solvent and remove those carbonates.

I'm not able to measure my water's alkalinity in ppm, the kit measures in degrees. IIRC mine's something like 10*dKH (degrees German hardness, which is specific to carbonates) and 8* general hardness, which is all other minerals.

As for the first question, it's a very good one and one I cannot answer. I know it's possible for water to be both alkaline (resistant to pH shift) and reading at acidic levels, but I'd have to go hit up one of my fish-geek friends to have him run down for me YET AGAIN how it happens. I don't know why I can't wrap my head around it, but there it is.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Jc i sort of think as u as my own personnel encyclopedias lol. enlightening as all ways respect .
Ned there is no one group of folks I would;d rather share with. You being on the top of the list!!!! Much love bro. Thank you for that wonderful compliment what a nice thing to say.:smoking:
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Can a soil slurry test show an alkaline ph due to high alkalinity water and the runoff ph be acidic at 5 to 5.5 at the same time?

If you water with water that has a total of 50-60 alkalinity does the soil just stay at that level? Same with 100 alkalinity? I am wondering if it builds up higher than what you put in?

If you had well water with ph 8.2 and ppm of 200 would total alkalinity be predictably high or could it still be in the 50-60 range?
@Tobor the 8th Man I am not sure on this as well. I used to be in reef keeping years ago and my knowledge as @Seamaiden mentioned my test kits are all based in Dkh .I do know this that our buddy @Ecompost will be able to answer your question as it is my belief that dude has a firmer grip on the chemistry and science of soil biology than I. ...........Hopefully he will pop in and open our eyes a bit.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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If you continually water a given body of media with water that's high in carbonates, the carbonate levels will eventually build up, and I recall that it can indeed build up to levels higher than the source water, UNLESS you run 'cleaner' water through it. That water can help act as a solvent and remove those carbonates.

I'm not able to measure my water's alkalinity in ppm, the kit measures in degrees. IIRC mine's something like 10*dKH (degrees German hardness, which is specific to carbonates) and 8* general hardness, which is all other minerals.

As for the first question, it's a very good one and one I cannot answer. I know it's possible for water to be both alkaline (resistant to pH shift) and reading at acidic levels, but I'd have to go hit up one of my fish-geek friends to have him run down for me YET AGAIN how it happens. I don't know why I can't wrap my head around it, but there it is.
While I am in concert with you on this, my question is will flushing with plain water dissolve the build up of carbonates without the use of C02? As carbonates are not very soluble in water. I really wished I had majored in chemistry when I had the chance. Who would have known 40 yrs later I would need this knowledge. LOL
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Calcium carbonate is poorly soluble in pure water (47 mg/L at normal atmospheric CO2 partial pressure as shown below).

The equilibrium of its solution is given by the equation (with dissolved calcium carbonate on the right):

CaCO3
15px-Equilibrium.svg.png
Ca2+ + CO32− Ksp = 3.7×10−9 to 8.7×10−9at 25 °C
where the solubility product for [Ca2+][CO32−] is given as anywhere from Ksp = 3.7×10−9 to Ksp = 8.7×10−9 at 25 °C, depending upon the data source.[41][42] What the equation means is that the product of molar concentration of calcium ions (moles of dissolved Ca2+ per liter of solution) with the molar concentration of dissolved CO32− cannot exceed the value of Ksp. This seemingly simple solubility equation, however, must be taken along with the more complicated equilibrium of carbon dioxide with water (see carbonic acid). Some of the CO32− combines with H+ in the solution according to:

HCO3−
15px-Equilibrium.svg.png
H+ + CO32− Ka2 = 5.61×10−11 at 25 °C
HCO3− is known as the bicarbonate ion. Calcium bicarbonate is many times more soluble in water than calcium carbonate—indeed it exists only in solution.

Some of the HCO3− combines with H+ in solution according to:

H2CO3
15px-Equilibrium.svg.png
H+ + HCO3− Ka1 = 2.5×10−4 at 25 °C
Some of the H2CO3 breaks up into water and dissolved carbon dioxide according to:

H2O + CO2(dissolved)
15px-Equilibrium.svg.png
H2CO3 Kh = 1.70×10−3 at 25 °C
And dissolved carbon dioxide is in equilibrium with atmospheric carbon dioxide according to:

f676f5c92fcbd2c48e1f0c1770610db9.png
where kH = 29.76 atm/(mol/L) at 25 °C (Henry constant),
25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
being the CO2 partial pressure.
For ambient air,
25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
is around 3.5×10−4 atmospheres (or equivalently 35 Pa). The last equation above fixes the concentration of dissolved CO2 as a function of
25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
, independent of the concentration of dissolved CaCO3. At atmospheric partial pressure of CO2, dissolved CO2 concentration is 1.2×10−5 moles/liter. The equation before that fixes the concentration of H2CO3 as a function of [CO2]. For [CO2]=1.2×10−5, it results in [H2CO3]=2.0×10−8 moles per liter. When [H2CO3] is known, the remaining three equations together with

Calcium ion solubility as a function of
CO2 partial pressure at 25 °C (Ksp = 4.47×10−9)
25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
(atm)
pH [Ca2+] (mol/L)
10−12 12.0 5.19 × 10−3
10−10 11.3 1.12 × 10−3
10−8 10.7 2.55 × 10−4
10−6 9.83 1.20 × 10−4
10−4 8.62 3.16 × 10−4
3.5 × 10−4 8.27 4.70 × 10−4
10−3 7.96 6.62 × 10−4
10−2 7.30 1.42 × 10−3
10−1 6.63 3.05 × 10−3
1 5.96 6.58 × 10−3
10 5.30 1.42 × 10−2
H2O
15px-Equilibrium.svg.png
H+ + OH− K = 10−14 at 25 °C
(which is true for all aqueous solutions), and the fact that the solution must be electrically neutral,

2[Ca2+] + 2[H+] = [HCO3−] + 2[CO32−] + [OH−]
make it possible to solve simultaneously for the remaining five unknown concentrations (note that the above form of the neutrality equation is valid only if calcium carbonate has been put in contact with pure water or with a neutral pH solution; in the case where the origin water solvent pH is not neutral, the equation is modified).

The table on the right shows the result for [Ca2+] and [H+] (in the form of pH) as a function of ambient partial pressure of CO2 (Ksp = 4.47×10−9 has been taken for the calculation).

  • At atmospheric levels of ambient CO2 the table indicates the solution will be slightly alkaline with a maximum CaCO3 solubility of 47 mg/L.
  • As ambient CO2 partial pressure is reduced below atmospheric levels, the solution becomes more and more alkaline. At extremely low
    25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
    , dissolved CO2, bicarbonate ion, and carbonate ion largely evaporate from the solution, leaving a highly alkaline solution of calcium hydroxide, which is more soluble than CaCO3. Note that for
    25d19af270e7c12a17ee83ed882c2c36.png
    = 10−12 atm, the [Ca2+][OH−]2 product is still below the solubility product of Ca(OH)2 (8×10−6). For still lower CO2 pressure, Ca(OH)2 precipitation will occur before CaCO3 precipitation.
  • As ambient CO2 partial pressure increases to levels above atmospheric, pH drops, and much of the carbonate ion is converted to bicarbonate ion, which results in higher solubility of Ca2+.
The effect of the latter is especially evident in day-to-day life of people who have hard water. Water in aquifers underground can be exposed to levels of CO2 much higher than atmospheric. As such water percolates through calcium carbonate rock, the CaCO3dissolves according to the second trend. When that same water then emerges from the tap, in time it comes into equilibrium with CO2levels in the air by outgassing its excess CO2. The calcium carbonate becomes less soluble as a result and the excess precipitates as lime scale. This same process is responsible for the formation of stalactites and stalagmites in limestone caves.

Two hydrated phases of calcium carbonate, monohydrocalcite, CaCO3·H2O and ikaite, CaCO3·6H2O, may precipitate from water at ambient conditions and persist as metastable phases.

With varying pH, temperature and salinity: CaCO3 scaling in swimming pools[edit]


In contrast to the open equilibrium scenario above, many swimming pools are managed by addition ofsodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) to about 2 mM as a buffer, then control of pH through use of HCl, NaHSO4, Na2CO3, NaOH or chlorine formulations that are acidic or basic. In this situation, dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) is far from equilibrium with atmospheric CO2. Progress towards equilibrium through outgassing of CO2 is slowed by (i) the slow reaction H2CO3 ⇌ CO2(aq) + H2O;[43] (ii) limited aeration in a deep water column and (iii) periodic replenishment of bicarbonate to maintain buffer capacity (often estimated through measurement of ‘total alkalinity’).

In this situation, the dissociation constants for the much faster reactions H2CO3 ⇌ H+ + HCO3‾ ⇌ 2 H+ + CO32− allow the prediction of concentrations of each DIC species in solution, from the added concentration of HCO3− (which comprises more than 90% of total DIC from pH 7 to pH 8 at 25 ˚C in fresh water.[44] Addition of HCO3− will increase CO32− concentration at any pH. Rearranging the equations given above, we can see that [Ca2+] = Ksp / [CO32−], and [CO32−] = Ka2 × [HCO3−] / [H+]. Therefore, when HCO3− concentration is known, the maximum concentration of Ca2+ ions before scaling through CaCO3 precipitation can be predicted from the formula:

Ca2+max = (Ksp / Ka2) × ([H+] / [HCO3−])
The solubility product for CaCO3 (Ksp) and the dissociation constants for the DIC species (including Ka2) are all substantially affected by temperature and salinity,[44] with the overall effect that Ca2+max increases from fresh to salt water, and decreases with rising temperature, pH, or added bicarbonate level, as illustrated in the accompanying graphs.

The trends are illustrative for pool management, but whether scaling occurs also depends on other factors including interactions with Mg2+, B(OH)4− and other ions in the pool, as well as supersaturation effects.[45][46] Scaling is commonly observed in electrolytic chlorine generators, where there is a high pH near the cathode surface and scale deposition further increases temperature. This is one reason that some pool operators prefer borate over bicarbonate as the primary pH buffer, and avoid the use of pool chemicals containing calcium.[47]

Solubility in a strong or weak acid solution[edit]
Solutions of strong (HCl), moderately strong (sulfamic) or weak (acetic, citric, sorbic, lactic, phosphoric) acids are commercially available. They are commonly used as descaling agents to remove limescale deposits. The maximum amount of CaCO3 that can be "dissolved" by one liter of an acid solution can be calculated using the above equilibrium equations.

  • In the case of a strong monoacid with decreasing acid concentration [A] = [A−], we obtain (with CaCO3 molar mass = 100 g):
[A] (mol/L) 1 10−1 10−2 10−3 10−4 10−5 10−6 10−7 10−10
Initial pH 0.00 1.00 2.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 6.79 7.00
Final pH 6.75 7.25 7.75 8.14 8.25 8.26 8.26 8.26 8.27
Dissolved CaCO3(g per liter of acid) 50.0 5.00 0.514 0.0849 0.0504 0.0474 0.0471 0.0470 0.0470
where the initial state is the acid solution with no Ca2+ (not taking into account possible CO2 dissolution) and the final state is the solution with saturated Ca2+. For strong acid concentrations, all species have a negligible concentration in the final state with respect to Ca2+ and A− so that the neutrality equation reduces approximately to 2[Ca2+] = [A−] yielding
be27098c6038ef4b45348e8acc57825e.png
. When the concentration decreases, [HCO3−] becomes non-negligible so that the preceding expression is no longer valid. For vanishing acid concentrations, one can recover the final pH and the solubility of CaCO3 in pure water.

  • In the case of a weak monoacid (here we take acetic acid with pKA = 4.76) with decreasing total acid concentration [A] = [A−]+[AH], we obtain:
[A] (mol/L) 1 10−1 10−2 10−3 10−4 10−5 10−6 10−7 10−10
Initial pH 2.38 2.88 3.39 3.91 4.47 5.15 6.02 6.79 7.00
Final pH 6.75 7.25 7.75 8.14 8.25 8.26 8.26 8.26 8.27
Dissolved CaCO3(g per liter of acid) 49.5 4.99 0.513 0.0848 0.0504 0.0474 0.0471 0.0470 0.0470
For the same total acid concentration, the initial pH of the weak acid is less acid than the one of the strong acid; however, the maximum amount of CaCO3 which can be dissolved is approximately the same. This is because in the final state, the pH is larger than the pKA, so that the weak acid is almost completely dissociated, yielding in the end as many H+ ions as the strong acid to "dissolve" the calcium carbonate.

  • The calculation in the case of phosphoric acid (which is the most widely used for domestic applications) is more complicated since the concentrations of the four dissociation states corresponding to this acid must be calculated together with [HCO3−], [CO32−], [Ca2+], [H+] and [OH−]. The system may be reduced to a seventh degree equation for [H+] the numerical solution of which gives
[A] (mol/L) 1 10−1 10−2 10−3 10−4 10−5 10−6 10−7 10−10
Initial pH 1.08 1.62 2.25 3.05 4.01 5.00 5.97 6.74 7.00
Final pH 6.71 7.17 7.63 8.06 8.24 8.26 8.26 8.26 8.27
Dissolved CaCO3(g per liter of acid) 62.0 7.39 0.874 0.123 0.0536 0.0477 0.0471 0.0471 0.0470
where [A] = [H3PO4] + [H2PO4−] + [HPO42−] + [PO43−] is the total acid concentration. Thus phosphoric acid is more efficient than a monoacid since at the final almost neutral pH, the second dissociated state concentration [HPO42−] is not negligible (see phosphoric acid).
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Even using almost pure water?

If you can, if you have a test kit try this experiment. I did it trying to test the solubility of CaMgCO3 (dolomite lime) but I think it would show that you don't need more than atmospheric CO2 to remove at least some carbonate buildup. You're going to need either distilled or at least super clean RO/DI water. Measure EC, pH and hardness levels. Place some DL in the water and agitate for 5-10mins (I get distracted a LOT and ended up walking away for about five minutes after agitating for two). Measure parameters.

I would have to see if I can find my notes in the garage, but IIRC pH went from 6.5 to 8.2, both hardness measures went from 0 to about 6dKH and I can't remember GH (because it's never been a concern..? Maybe I should be, the Fe at least), but it also rose significantly. In just a few minutes. And.. now I can't recall EC but it went from something like .25 to.... crap. It rose. To be fair to myself, I did this YEARS ago and a lot's happened since then. :drunk:
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Even using almost pure water?

If you can, if you have a test kit try this experiment. I did it trying to test the solubility of CaMgCO3 (dolomite lime) but I think it would show that you don't need more than atmospheric CO2 to remove at least some carbonate buildup. You're going to need either distilled or at least super clean RO/DI water. Measure EC, pH and hardness levels. Place some DL in the water and agitate for 5-10mins (I get distracted a LOT and ended up walking away for about five minutes after agitating for two). Measure parameters.

I would have to see if I can find my notes in the garage, but IIRC pH went from 6.5 to 8.2, both hardness measures went from 0 to about 6dKH and I can't remember GH (because it's never been a concern..? Maybe I should be, the Fe at least), but it also rose significantly. In just a few minutes. And.. now I can't recall EC but it went from something like .25 to.... crap. It rose. To be fair to myself, I did this YEARS ago and a lot's happened since then. :drunk:
I used to have a LaMottes full range kit, but alas since I got out of reefkeeping due to guilt on sustainability of our reefs I no longer have my kit.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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You got that in while I was typing! I won't even try to say I understand all of that. I see all those numbers and they spin in front of my face.
LOL you am me both darlin, it sends my ADD reelin. I'm hopin between all of us we can nail the answer to @Tobor the 8th Man 's question. I admit it I'm stumped.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I used to have a LaMottes full range kit, but alas since I got out of reefkeeping due to guilt on sustainability of our reefs I no longer have my kit.
I got out in part for that reason, and working the trade can burn you out on it.
 

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