Understanding Effects Of Water With High Alkalinity

[azmmjadvocates]

Correct, but we know what normal is now and that should raise questions. I bet im one of a handfull if any that ph adjusts my soap follier to 5.5 flushing at low ph also is bennificial just before harvest. does anyone know why?

I discovered the research on ph of normal rain water researching what fatman said about flushing and precipitating on purpose to remove nutrients from flowers pre harvest. A lot of clues of what to study by fatman

 

[rmoltis]

Here is the national atmospheric deposition program. showing monitor stations you can zoom in on by location and see relevant data of rain ph, pollutants etc.



It's pretty sweet once you poke around a bit in the data section

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Where I live we have the most acidic rain in the country. It's due to the high pollution.

"RAIN at a monitoring station in central Pennsylvania registered the highest acid content of 131 sites in 46 states, according to a report by the Natural Resources Defense Council.

The nonprofit group, which is based in Washington, has lobbied for sharp reductions in pollutants that cause acid rain, such as sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. In the new report, which was based on Federal monitoring data from 1987, Pennsylvania held the No. 1 ranking for acidic rainfall.

The council said the rain that was the most acidic was recorded at the Leading Ridge in Huntingdon County, in central Pennsylvania.

Rain there had an average pH of 4.08, which is 33 times more acidic than unpolluted rain, the council said.

The pH scale measures acidity, with 7 being neutral. The lower the number, the more acidic the rain. Unpolluted rain is slightly acidic, with a pH of 5.6.

Many pollutants are emitted by coal-fired power plants, factories and cars. The materials are thought to undergo changes in the atmosphere and fall to Earth as acid rain, snow, sleet, fog and dry particles."

slightly acidic with ph UP TO 5.6 acid rain is 4 to just under 5, 5 to 5.6 is normal, trust me ive done more research than just this post, the link i privided was just a quick google search to show some reference.

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Mine is variable, but usually lands at 6.3 after the first hard rain.

We also must insure if we are testing PH, the capture of rainwater is not from runoff of roofs into rain barrels ect. even with high downpour ph will be effected by containers and contact with roofs.

 

[Ecompost]

When I looked up how much NO3 can be delivered via rainfall, I learned that your location is KEY. Probably the same for pH parameters.

yeah i would say so, I never seen rain below 6.0 here. I travel a lot to the UK, Spain and wider Europe, never seen it that low there either. It might have been like that just after Chernobyl, and or perhaps before the banning of lead in fuels. If your rain is 5.5 or lower, I would start to lobby your politicians to ask which company is causing that amount of acid rain through the release of Sulfur dioxide and the afore mentions NO.
Acid rain has not been a phenomenon here in Europe since the 80's when wide spread liming of lakes was conducted to buffer the acidic rain, primarily linked to lead in vehicle fuels as I understand.
If my water was that high, I would be seriously concerned about my metal uptake, esp the amount of Al I was consuming. I would certainly be using humates
may be the volcanoes near you are making themselves known? Or you are having very many lighting strikes? But I always thought normal rainwater is weakly acidic because of the absorption of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere—a process that produces carbonic acid—and from organic acids generated from biological activity. But I am not a weather man, so wasnt measuring the water with consistency.... since i dont get Ca defs why would I?. i might now this has come up ;-) tho just for the sake of data collection and reference.

 

[Ecompost]

Where I live we have the most acidic rain in the country. It's due to the high pollution.

"RAIN at a monitoring station in central Pennsylvania registered the highest acid content of 131 sites in 46 states, according to a report by the Natural Resources Defense Council.

The nonprofit group, which is based in Washington, has lobbied for sharp reductions in pollutants that cause acid rain, such as sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. In the new report, which was based on Federal monitoring data from 1987, Pennsylvania held the No. 1 ranking for acidic rainfall.

The council said the rain that was the most acidic was recorded at the Leading Ridge in Huntingdon County, in central Pennsylvania.

Rain there had an average pH of 4.08, which is 33 times more acidic than unpolluted rain, the council said.

The pH scale measures acidity, with 7 being neutral. The lower the number, the more acidic the rain. Unpolluted rain is slightly acidic, with a pH of 5.6.

Many pollutants are emitted by coal-fired power plants, factories and cars. The materials are thought to undergo changes in the atmosphere and fall to Earth as acid rain, snow, sleet, fog and dry particles."

holy shit bro, thats low enough to destroy buildings

 

[Ecompost]

Correct, but we know what normal is now and that should raise questions. I bet im one of a handfull if any that ph adjusts my soap follier to 5.5 flushing at low ph also is bennificial just before harvest. does anyone know why?

I discovered the research on ph of normal rain water researching what fatman said about flushing and precipitating on purpose to remove nutrients from flowers pre harvest. A lot of clues of what to study by fatman

are you talking now about the pH of your plant, or the pH of your water, or the pH of your media? You do know all of these systems are separate, and so the rain water pH does not mean this is the media, nor the plant pH. How are you flushing nutrients from a plant that maintains its own homeostasis? You mean you are starving your plant?

 

[Ecompost]

5 isnt low, its normal per EPA, acid rain is 4. One reason I also ph down my follier. I believe the range for normal is 5-5.5 ill find the reference.

I would not want to eat your veggies man, sorry bro, but i sense higher than the levels I like of Aluminum

 

[rmoltis]

holy shit bro, thats low enough to destroy buildings

And cars too!!

 

[Ecompost]

And cars too!!

yes, people live in those too now so dam...LOL bro thats madness, i hope you take lots of Fulvic acid. :-)

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Bacteria, specifically Nitrate fixers, have bio film excretions that are in the pH range above 7.0. In order to convert N2 to No3- a pH greater than 7 is required. Hence microbes which have existed for billions of years, have developed conditions that better suit the function

Im sorry this drifted from my intended point from my lack of editing the quote above initially.

Point not being what natural rain has drifted to today in varrious areas, though it does have effect. The point being naturally pure rain water is of low ph and would have a flushing effect without detriment to natural bacteria, historically speaking.

My forte admitedly isnt soil as mine is hydroponics and I murder enzymes.

Seamaiden I have no issue with monitoring my runoff as I uses near 0 cation exchange capacity medium of perlite. I say near because I like some expanded clay on top to keep perlite from floating. Expanded clay has a higher CEC.

As for flushing instead of using a product such as clearex ect for reduction of phosporus or other nutrients forced precipitations by ph can assist. Streight ro will rapidly remove disolvable salts, same in soil as in hydro. Salt can be added during flush to prevent water swelling buds which is what clearex does imho.

In my yard my plants love my low tds rez dumps. My tap is 1700ppm,

 

[azmmjadvocates]

I would not want to eat your veggies man, sorry bro, but i sense higher than the levels I like of Aluminum

? aluminum..guess im not following you, I can assure you my veggies are sought after lol. I was only referring to my final stage flush in hydroponics and that low phflush by rainwater is natural and not detrimental to bacteria and enzymes as imo illuded to.

 

[windshear13]

I just had some new cisterns put in, and now my collected rainwater is 10.5 ph! I only see 16 ppm in the water though. I suspect it has something to do with the concrete foundation the tanks are sunk in. Can I simply correct this imbalance with PH down? Can the water truly be alkaline with 10.5 PH and only 16 ppm registering?

This water will be used for recreational production, so I could really use some help!

Thanks everyone.

 

[Ecompost]

? aluminum..guess im not following you, I can assure you my veggies are sought after lol. I was only referring to my final stage flush in hydroponics and that low phflush by rainwater is natural and not detrimental to bacteria and enzymes as imo illuded to.

lower pH values help to mobilize many metals, inc those Al+++ these are present in all sorts of things, including many clays and perlite. Low pH systems, in a few plants, not sure if we can include MJ, are known however to use Al as some sort of mechanism to help the uptake of proteins through a reduced exposure to H+ I understand but I am not an expert on low Ph plants. I think the Al helps the uptake say like N, K and P in particular. However, it is a known antagonist of Ca and Mg in either Al tolerant or not plants. I would argue Ca is a crucial element in all food sources for humans. plus the added Na levels of perlite are a further hazard imo This is why Hydro will never feed the world with adequate nutrient density, or at least not until they can find out how to manage the one in one out changeability of Cations and Anions, and know exactly when to feed what.

perlite typical analysis

 

[Ecompost]

I just had some new cisterns put in, and now my collected rainwater is 10.5 ph! I only see 16 ppm in the water though. I suspect it has something to do with the concrete foundation the tanks are sunk in. Can I simply correct this imbalance with PH down? Can the water truly be alkaline with 10.5 PH and only 16 ppm registering?

This water will be used for recreational production, so I could really use some help!

Thanks everyone.

wft erm not really mate, something is up there. What did they use to line the cisterns? Did you rinse them out or just use them? I would get that tested asap. Thats super high and will take an amount of acid to correct it, well the ppms is low so it wont buffer well so might be swingy, test it again. I would be very worried as to what was on the inside of the tank to be causing this climb otherwise esp if it didnt dissipate over time. Put a tub out, collect rain water test it, do this over a few spots and samples to get an average, find out its the tank, see it doesnt change then phone the people up and tell them to come and remove it

 

[Seamaiden]

I just had some new cisterns put in, and now my collected rainwater is 10.5 ph! I only see 16 ppm in the water though. I suspect it has something to do with the concrete foundation the tanks are sunk in. Can I simply correct this imbalance with PH down? Can the water truly be alkaline with 10.5 PH and only 16 ppm registering?

This water will be used for recreational production, so I could really use some help!

Thanks everyone.

Oh Christ! I think you're on the right track, though I haven't personally dealt with water storage in concrete. I have dealt with concrete ponds and since pH was *so* important to the fish, you'd better believe we dropped it ASAP. Phosphoric acid mixed into a bucket of the pond water to calculate how much is needed to Tx entire pond (expect bouncing), and then additional mixed in and slowly added to pond.

I see I just said the same thing as Ecompost. D'oh!

 

[windshear13]

Thank you so much for the replies! I should have some water test results tomorrow. I am hoping it is just buffered with Calcium and Magnesium. Is there any particular danger to the plants from water that starts at excessively high levels of PH after phosphoric acid or the like has been added? Or is it irrelevant as long as I can get the PH down to 5.8? I just worry about the added PPM's from whatever solution I use to reduce the PH.

There is no lining in the cisterns, and I'm unsure if they were rinsed before use. I do believe they were filled and drained at least once.

 

[Ecompost]

Thank you so much for the replies! I should have some water test results tomorrow. I am hoping it is just buffered with Calcium and Magnesium. Is there any particular danger to the plants from water that starts at excessively high levels of PH after phosphoric acid or the like has been added? Or is it irrelevant as long as I can get the PH down to 5.8? I just worry about the added PPM's from whatever solution I use to reduce the PH.

There is no lining in the cisterns, and I'm unsure if they were rinsed before use. I do believe they were filled and drained at least once.

I would drop any other P feeds in the near term, make sure your K levels are getting through to help maintain overall root health. You could always try a foliar approach while things settle down, we find Ca, mg, Fe and AA's all work awesome via the leaf

 

[Seamaiden]

Thank you so much for the replies! I should have some water test results tomorrow. I am hoping it is just buffered with Calcium and Magnesium. Is there any particular danger to the plants from water that starts at excessively high levels of PH after phosphoric acid or the like has been added? Or is it irrelevant as long as I can get the PH down to 5.8? I just worry about the added PPM's from whatever solution I use to reduce the PH.

There is no lining in the cisterns, and I'm unsure if they were rinsed before use. I do believe they were filled and drained at least once.

Not really, outside of higher EC levels, and of course the additional phosphorous.

 

[jkpaw]

After reading this thread I have a couple lingering questions. From the original post, which suggests phosphoric acid for lowering alkalinity:

Acid is always injected prior to the addition of fertilizer or other chemicals.

Maybe this only refers to big ag productions? Or maybe I'm missing something.

Meanwhile, can anyone appraise my alkalinity situation? I've struggled with high pH water during all my grows. So far I've always adjusted pH down (with phosphoric acid, post nutes), but I've always had suspicions of lingering pH problems.

I would love to trust soil buffering instead of adjusting, so this post got me Googling my city's recent tap water data, which confirms my own pH readings of around 9.5. But do some of the other data possibly mitigate the high readings?

Total alkalinity averages a respectable 63 (CaCO3). Total hardness is 87. Phenol alkalinity is 17. Total solids is 154 (mg/L). Calcium is 12. Magnesium is 13. Conductivity is 291 (umhos/cm). Etc. I'm not ready for expensive tests because I'm not ready to seek perfection -- just hoping someone with a scientific brain can dumb this stuff down for me enough to point me generally in the right direction.

BTW, this will be my first attempt at using homegrown compost. (Past grows have centered around FFOF.) So I just tested my compost (as soil) and found, even after months of adding sulfur and cal-po-mag, its pH is still stubbornly hovering just above 7. As I'm gearing up for my fourth indoor session, this makes me lean toward peat as a base (instead of ProMix or coir). Agreed? The compost (now cold) feels and smells real nice -- testing high in nitrogen, adequate in potassium, and a bit deficient in phosphorus. Could I succeed with, say, 1/3 peat, 1/3 compost, and 1/3 aeration? What other crucial amendments should I focus on? (Besides, like, neem, tea, and EWC.)

And, of course, I'll need to make a final decision on whether to adjust the water pH. My filter takes care of chloramines, but it leaves the pH high. I'm not ready for RO, but I am planning to double container capacity this time -- from 5 gallons to 10.

Thanks for any tips!