Osa Nutrient Additive Out Of Rhode Island! Is 5 Gallons Worth $4700?

[Dabominable]

There is another thread about Osa28..I believe the dilution rate is extremely low, because its amazingly concentrated. I Believe it comes out to cheaper then armor si. IIRC the rate was 1ml per gallon. So if you think of it like that, a little 150ml bottle, would make 150 gallons. You need to do the breakdown cost before you write something off. Just like bloombastic. costly, but at 1-4ml a gallon it goes a ridiculously long way. I know for sure i plan on trying the Osa28 once i'm out of my gallon of ArmorSi. Also, i believe there are charts and testimonials that back this product up 100%. There is not a more readily available silica source then this OSA28, from what i've gathered, but i still plan on trying it sometime soon.

Rather, i should say its the most immediately available silica product on the market. It acts as silica would if you added humic added. For lack of a better word its like chelated liquid silica.

 

[chinqlinq]

Rather, i should say its the most immediately available silica product on the market. It acts as silica would if you added humic added. For lack of a better word its like chelated liquid silica.

i think this is very ill informing. OSA/orthosilicic acid is immediately bioavailable to the plant, but that's not the same as mixing potassium silicate + humic. just because humic is a type of chelating agent that makes other certain non-available nutrients available to the plant doesnt mean the mode of action is the same.

unless im missing some researching, i dont believe humic acid makes normal potassium silicate (as the form i believe youre referring to) immediately available.

 

[osa28]

i think this is very ill informing. OSA/orthosilicic acid is immediately bioavailable to the plant, but that's not the same as mixing potassium silicate + humic. just because humic is a type of chelating agent that makes other certain non-available nutrients available to the plant doesnt mean the mode of action is the same.

unless im missing some researching, i dont believe humic acid makes normal potassium silicate (as the form i believe youre referring to) immediately available.

Silicic acid isn't a "chelated" version of potassium silicate as would be with other minerals, like calcium. Various silicates undergo actual chemical structure changes to become silicic acid. SiO2 --> Si(OH)4 for example, which can pass through the cell wall easily. So simply mixing humic or other chelator doesn't make that happen. There is chemistry and microbial action involved in the silicification process that happens in certain soils, or simulated in a lab.

 

[chinqlinq]

Thank you for that. To confirm what you said, most growers need an active microbial medium to break down potassium silicate for plant absorption?

 

[osa28]

Thank you for that. To confirm what you said, most growers need an active microbial medium to break down potassium silicate for plant absorption?

Yup exactly... time+microbes. And specific microbes. Just adding a compost tea or other product isn't necessarily enough. There are very specific silicon fixing bacteria that seem to be most important but I haven't seen much great research, such as is available on nitrogen fixing bacteria.

 

[Quantrill]

SiO2 + 2 H2O ↔ H4SiO4(aq)

It is called hydrolysis, and there is no microbe needed. Proper dilution in water is all that is required to change the silicon anions in concentrated potassium silicate solutions to silicic acid.

Silicification is the process in which organic matter becomes saturated with silica.

You are talking about things you do not understand. Trying to make your product sound superior by making stuff up.

 

[FooDoo]

SiO2 + 2 H2O ↔ H4SiO4(aq)

It is called hydrolysis, and there is no microbe needed. Proper dilution in water is all that is required to change the silicon anions in concentrated potassium silicate solutions to silicic acid.

Silicification is the process in which organic matter becomes saturated with silica.

You are talking about things you do not understand. Trying to make your product sound superior by making stuff up.

Lol osa keeos feeding the sheep bullshit and they keep eating it up

 

[chinqlinq]

Even if his science is wrong on potassium silicate, and Im sure someone will assume im a hidden rep for OSA for this opinion... but when I sprayed and fed FASILITOR in veg and twice in bloom - my plants were greener, were stronger and thicker, had less purpling of the stems, and branched and bushed out better than I ever had on strains Ive worked with for over a year...

I've never tried OSA28 but im assuming its practically the same thing as Fasilitor and 2 other mono/orthosilicic products out there. I use that and RSN8 and theyre by far and out the most expensive nutrients in my lineup but the only things I would put ahead of those 2 things in importance and effectiveness are my NPK and calmag

 

[osa28]

@Quantrill Not trying to make our product sound superior with any fake claims--though it is better than (most) options that don't actually feed the plant. Did use the wrong term in the wrong place, thanks for catching it... silicification meant to refer to monosilicic acid accumulating and polymerizing in the cell wall, creating the silicon effect in plants, not the silicate transformation in soil.

SiO2 + 2H2O --> H4SiO4 is perfectly good. The problem is the reaction doesn't stop there. Silicic acid quickly undergoes polymerization and become useless to plants. The (mono)silicic acid you can find in nature is at very low concentration and unlikely satisfactory to the appetite of most plants--this especially in growing environments using immature soil. Polymerized silicic acid needs to get hydrolyzed to be useful and microbes play an important role in converting polymer to monomer. If the concentration is too high, monomer will polymerize again, as with high concentrations of potassium silicate in many products. There is an equilibrium. If the monomer gets used (by plants), the reaction will favor hydrolysis/depolymerization. Of course you need the right microbes around for that (in soil).

Silicic acid is only stable and monomerized at low pH--less than around 2-3. Simply diluting potassium silicate in water doesn't create a solution at a low pH (alkaline + neutral doesn't equal acid). All the research I've seen (example: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01108a029), shows silicic acid requiring some sort of acid environment to transform the silicate into silicic acid. And to stay stable, needs to be buffered from the straight water to resist polymerization (for shelf stability).

 

[Quantrill]

Orthosilicic acid is stable in water at room temperature as long as its concentration remains below the solubility limit of the amorphous phase , which is about 120 ppm SiO2. This is more than adequate for plant fertilization. As has been shown in many research publications by the effectiveness of potassium silicate to supply plant available silicon. Only when you attempt to concentrate the silicic acid above the solubility limit(saturated solution), at biological pH values, do you need to consider stabilization. Soluble silicates are stable because of their high pH, and because at these high pH values the silicic acid dissociates into silicate anions. If you try to lower the pH of a concentrated silicate solution, you get polymerization. But if you dilute the polymers below the solubility limit of 100 ppm SiO2, you get silicic acid at biological pH values. Water is the source of the hydrogen(acid) in the hydrolysis reaction.

In general, as concentrated alkali metal silicate solutions are diluted (to a lower limit of ~330 ppm), the pH and [OH- ] are reduced, and silicate ions hydrolyze to form larger polymeric species along with a lower SiO2/Na2O ratio silicate [9]. As stated by Iler [10](pg.20): “When a solution of soluble silicate, which is always highly alkaline, is neutralized by acid to a pH below about 10.7, the silicate ions decompose to silicic acid [Si(OH)4], which then polymerizes to silica.”
However, for very dilute solutions (< 300 ppm SiO2) as in the case of drinking water applications (4-25 ppm SiO2), essentially complete depolymerization occurs and monomer (i.e., Si(OH)4 and HSiO3) is the dominant species. For example, upon adding a sodium silicate solution (SiO2/Na2O =3.22, ~400,000 ppm SiO2) to water, Lehrman and Shuldener observed that for dilutions of 14, 70, 140, and 350 ppm SiO2, only a few percentof the silica at most was in colloidal form whereas the majority was molybdate-reactive (i.e., monomer). According to the authors, these equilibria were reached very rapidly, “probably instantaneously.”

potassium silicates preform even better in solution than sodium silicates, so the above quote is certainly pertinent.

and i still say you are making up the part where you claim microbes play a role in the de-polymerization

 

[osa28]

Orthosilicic acid is stable in water at room temperature as long as its concentration remains below the solubility limit of the amorphous phase , which is about 120 ppm SiO2. This is more than adequate for plant fertilization. As has been shown in many research publications by the effectiveness of potassium silicate to supply plant available silicon. Only when you attempt to concentrate the silicic acid above the solubility limit(saturated solution), at biological pH values, do you need to consider stabilization. Soluble silicates are stable because of their high pH, and because at these high pH values the silicic acid dissociates into silicate anions. If you try to lower the pH of a concentrated silicate solution, you get polymerization. But if you dilute the polymers below the solubility limit of 100 ppm SiO2, you get silicic acid at biological pH values. Water is the source of the hydrogen(acid) in the hydrolysis reaction.

potassium silicates preform even better in solution than sodium silicates, so the above quote is certainly pertinent.

and i still say you are making up the part where you claim microbes play a role in the de-polymerization

Clarification... we don't use microbes for making silicic acid. This is in reference to natural soil processes. Not much happens with minerals in soil without microbes.

 

[Quantrill]

Thank you for that. To confirm what you said, most growers need an active microbial medium to break down potassium silicate for plant absorption?

Yup exactly... time+microbes. And specific microbes. Just adding a compost tea or other product isn't necessarily enough. There are very specific silicon fixing bacteria that seem to be most important but I haven't seen much great research, such as is available on nitrogen fixing bacteria.

So are you trying to clarify your answer to chingling's question?

Because your original answer was incorrect and convoluted.

 

[osa28]

So are you trying to clarify your answer to chingling's question?

Because your original answer was incorrect and convoluted.

Potassium silicate isn't directly plant available in the soil so needs to be converted to monosilicic acid. From the sparse research I've seen into this process, yes microbes are needed to help facilitate this process. There are also chemical factors involved such as acidic conditions.

I was clarifying that we don't use microbes in production but microbes are needed in normal soils to make monosilicic acid. Microbes are needed to make most compounds plant available. Otherwise it's just locked up minerals.

 

[Quantrill]

My point is that simple dilution of soluble silicates such as soluble potassium silicates, ie Agsil 25, AgSil 16H, Dynagro Pro-tekt ect, is all that is needed to change the silicate anions into Silicic acid(plant available silicon).

If you limit the concentration of silicon in solution to below the solubility of the amorphous phase( ~120ppm SiO2) you do not have to concern yourself with fancy stabilization techniques like adding PEG 400 at ~40% of the solution.

So when you told chingling that microbes were necessary for potassium silicate to become plant available silicon, you were wrong.

It is correct to say that silicate anions are not plant available, however when properly diluted the silicate anions are hydrolysed and silicic acid is formed. This silicic acid is stable and should not polymerize so long as the concentration is kept below ~120ppm SiO2.

Now the research that i have read shows that for hydroponics and continuous feed systems, the concentration of SiO2 in the fertilizer working solution can be limited to ~50ppm SiO2 or less, and plants receive benefit.
link1, link2, link3

At your products labeled rate of 0.5 mL per gallon, OSA28 provides ~3 ppm SiO2 (this assumes a specific density of 1.1). I am almost certain my well water has more than that already.

The research i have seen on stabilized silicic acid formulations has been in reference to its efficacy as a foliar to increase plant uptake of silicon and as a plant pathogen suppressant.
link4, link5, link6, link7

 

[eastcoastjoe]

So in laymans terms for guys like me LOL, does this mean that products like agsil are just as effective as these expensive products like Aptus and OSA28 ?

My point is that simple dilution of soluble silicates such as soluble potassium silicates, ie Agsil 25, AgSil 16H, Dynagro Pro-tekt ect, is all that is needed to change the silicate anions into Silicic acid(plant available silicon).

If you limit the concentration of silicon in solution to below the solubility of the amorphous phase( ~120ppm SiO2) you do not have to concern yourself with fancy stabilization techniques like adding PEG 400 at ~40% of the solution.

So when you told chingling that microbes were necessary for potassium silicate to become plant available silicon, you were wrong.

It is correct to say that silicate anions are not plant available, however when properly diluted the silicate anions are hydrolysed and silicic acid is formed. This silicic acid is stable and should not polymerize so long as the concentration is kept below ~120ppm SiO2.

Now the research that i have read shows that for hydroponics and continuous feed systems, the concentration of SiO2 in the fertilizer working solution can be limited to ~50ppm SiO2 or less, and plants receive benefit.
link1, link2, link3

At your products labeled rate of 0.5 mL per gallon, OSA28 provides ~3 ppm SiO2 (this assumes a specific density of 1.1). I am almost certain my well water has more than that already.

The research i have seen on stabilized silicic acid formulations has been in reference to its efficacy as a foliar to increase plant uptake of silicon and as a plant pathogen suppressant.
link4, link5, link6, link7

 

[Quantrill]

Root applications of potassium silicate at a concentration of 1.7 mM gave the best results in terms of Si absorption and disease control regardless of the source

from:
Effect of root and foliar applications of soluble Si on powdery mildew control and growth of wheat plants.

Where they compared application via fertigation and foliar of Kasil 6 (AKA AgSil 21) and Silimol(AKA Siliforce). Silimol (2% SiO2,~2% K2O, 46% PEG400) is very similar to OSA28 from my understanding and Kasil (AgSil 21) is a 2.1 SiO2:K2O weight ratio liquid potassium silicate product with 26% SiO2 and 12% K2O.

Both potassium silicate solutions(Kasil and Silamol) had a good impact on disease control by root application. As reported previously, Kasil provided an excellent control of powdery mildew on wheat (Bélanger et al, 2003), but Silamol, a formulation of potassium silicate, chelated with PEG400, and branded for foliar use was just as efficient when used as a soil amendment at an equal dose of 1.7 mM Si.

1.7 mM = 47.75 ppm Si or 102 ppm SiO2

This is the only study I have seen that compares efficacy of stabilized silicic acid and soluble potassium silicate. If OSA28 has more information, I would be glad to hear it.

So to answer your question eastcoastjoe, in simple terms, yes.

 

[motherlode]

osa. faslitor and vitalize are not just silicic acid

 

[Quantrill]

Do you think that is a very important point when discussing the efficacy of silicon fertilizers, motherlode?

Silimol contains 0.15% molybdenum as well.

They all have chloride in them too, but i don't see it on any of their labels.

The ingredient that makes them all better foliars than straight potassium silicate dilutions is the ~40% PEG-400.

 

[motherlode]

my point was simply it isnt merely silicon / silicic acid and it is very important to the discussion about what makes this product more effective then say just protek since boron and molybdenum arent available in many commercial nutrients and that is why this product and others produce noticeable results

is there a cheaper way to acquire these elements? you could say the same about almost every commercial hyrdro product on the market and people sharing that information is what makes this community great

I appreciate everybody's informative and civil discussion in this thread - there is no reason to come in here and talk shit and make snide remarks

 

[fishwhistle]

So in laymans terms for guys like me LOL, does this mean that products like agsil are just as effective as these expensive products like Aptus and OSA28 ?

I say yes in my personal opinion,the difference for me anyways was i put the agsil in my mix for 4 weeks or so before i use it the first time and just amend as needed after that so it takes a little planning ahead but the savings is HUGE.I have plants side by side in veg right now that half i used Osa28 on and the other half agsil amended soil and i cant see one difference and it is not just me,Im pretty sure @Billyboat and others have had the same results.
Is Osa a good product?Hell yeah it is,it works really well in my opinion.Does Agsil work just as good?With a little fore thought yes it does and its 45x cheaper,its a no brainer for me.
At a $100.00 a gallon id be all in but at $1000.00 a gallon im out.