Calling Out The Organic Growing Machines

[oldskol4evr]

How long of a cure... i like 6 months ... no more than 12

just got 2 bowls of scrap,lmao been about year and half since i used um,,that one bowl got me feeling alright,,about to go mix some soil for mama new containers and 2 bags of potatoe started,got about 18 seeds to plant,,hahah motivational medicine,,sure taste like white blaze lmao,speedy,ll

 

[Organikz]

Ya i dont listen to a lot of the Internet BS HAHAHA

Oh neither do I. Not blindly anyway. I read white sheets regarding the topic. Even white sheets don't always apply to growing in containers. You have a closed system. So for instance when a gentleman showed a whitesheet studying salt fertilizer effects on soil biology. He claimed the microbiologu was consuming it because numbers didn't diminish however they didn't increase as they did with the organic field. That is an open loop where microbes freely move about and migrate around the world lol.

However I understand that microbial killing chemicals are used to stabilize the nutrients so they smell fresh. So how the hell does bacteria eat preservatives that kill it on contact?

 

[Organikz]

No veg nutes.. no tea..sandy dirt.... look at this garbage

You have the best nutrients ever...mineral rich land. Loaded with worms and microbiology. Dammit I am really thinking of splitting to work at a farm. I'll do anything. Beats the hell out of being a slave. I'd rather be a slave that doesn't have to hide to toke his bowl. It gets my mind right...lol I actually get much more done and I'm OCD as hell when im high. Work ends up looking beaut8ful.

 

[GT21]

You have the best nutrients ever...mineral rich land. Loaded with worms and microbiology. Dammit I am really thinking of splitting to work at a farm. I'll do anything. Beats the hell out of being a slave. I'd rather be a slave that doesn't have to hide to toke his bowl. It gets my mind right...lol I actually get much more done and I'm OCD as hell when im high. Work ends up looking beaut8ful.

The best shit you can add to shit dirt is wood chips and worms...and a bunch of water.

 

[Organikz]

The best shit you can add to shit dirt is wood chips and worms...and a bunch of water.

Make sure it's not a hardwood. It will soak up your nitrogen. I know a few guys start fresh soil using pine bark fines as a partial aeration pretty much knowing it's going to break down and they'll be retilling or recycling. It builds a great tilth and humus content.Composted hardwood is fine but it needs to already be mush.

If you're talking about long term soil building its the cats meow...lmfao I know I'm high now that I said that. Thats why it absorbs nitrogen. Your microbes basically will not leave wood chips. They are so mineral rich it's like an endless buffet. Dense mineral rich layers of cellulose. No organic material can compete.

 

[GT21]

Make sure it's not a hardwood. It will soak up your nitrogen. I know a few guys start fresh soil using pine bark fines as a partial aeration pretty much knowing it's going to break down and they'll be retilling or recycling. It builds a great tilth and humus content.Composted hardwood is fine but it needs to already be mush.

If you're talking about long term soil building its the cats meow...lmfao I know I'm high now that I said that. Thats why it absorbs nitrogen. Your microbes basically will not leave wood chips. They are so mineral rich it's like an endless buffet. Dense mineral rich layers of cellulose. No organic material can compete.

Who told you no hard wood?

 

[oldskol4evr]

Who told you no hard wood?

i agree ,hardwood is a wiser choice in my opinion also,,pine is very acidic,,i couldnt raise even a great veggie garden in east texas,,that is pine country,,if you limed the soil you did better,,but find a old oak thats been down for about 15 years,lots of great humus there,,i tried to make food plots there and even lime didnt help on my place,,between the pine and hard clay,game over,,when i brought in mushroom compost,course sand,top soil and a ton of lime with same amount of gypsum ,i used sheetrock busted up and sheetrock mud for that,i finally was able to raise a decent garden,,hardwood does take much longer to break down,but useless no

 

[Organikz]

There seems to be a.lot of controversy surrounding the subject. Fungal overdominance which makes soil go acidic. I can't find white sheets. I think this all opinion...i would be concerned about an imbalance.

"You can absolutely use the bark chips for weed control in pathways and other non-veggie, far-away-from-stainable-surface areas, and you can mix the sawdust right in with them. But don't use fresh wood of any kind—especiallysawdust, with its small particle size—as a mulch anywhere near WANTED plants. Fresh wood---again, especially in the form of sawdust—will suck all the Nitrogen out of the soil and starve your poor plants to death.

And whatever you do, don't ever till sawdust or other forms of wood INTO your soil; that'll turn the area into a killing field for plants for years to come."

I know a guy that ended up having to throw his soil out and start over. Can we definitively say wood chips were the culprit? no. The owner of KiS organics and coot also talked about it because they were referring to cheap compost that is full of it.

 

[oldskol4evr]

There seems to be a.lot of controversy surrounding the subject. Fungal overdominance which makes soil go extremely alkaline. I can't find white sheets. I think this all opinion...i would be concerned about an imbalance.

"You can absolutely use the bark chips for weed control in pathways and other non-veggie, far-away-from-stainable-surface areas, and you can mix the sawdust right in with them. But don't use fresh wood of any kind—especiallysawdust, with its small particle size—as a mulch anywhere near WANTED plants. Fresh wood---again, especially in the form of sawdust—will suck all the Nitrogen out of the soil and starve your poor plants to death.

And whatever you do, don't ever till sawdust or other forms of wood INTO your soil; that'll turn the area into a killing field for plants for years to come."

I know a guy that ended up having to throw his soil out and start over. Can we definitively say wood chips were the culprit? no. The owner of KiS organics and coot also talked about it because they were referring to cheap compost that is full of it.

fox farms use both hardwood and pine,i dont have a clue why they call pine hardwood but do,,i hate that sappy shit,i cut a pine down at the drop of a hat,oak,hickory ,pecan,depress me to see go down,,cypress is good mulch same with mesguite,,ceder ahhh iffy,but has properties that deter bugs,,takes many many years to break down,,great for walk ways in the garden and keep most ants out to

 

[Organikz]

I'm really looking into it and I can see this being a great way to release more carbonates in the soil. The fact that its more acidic would allow for better cation uptake.

 

[GT21]

fox farms use both hardwood and pine,i dont have a clue why they call pine hardwood but do,,i hate that sappy shit,i cut a pine down at the drop of a hat,oak,hickory ,pecan,depress me to see go down,,cypress is good mulch same with mesguite,,ceder ahhh iffy,but has properties that deter bugs,,takes many many years to break down,,great for walk ways in the garden and keep most ants out to

Fox farm uses 2 different bases on east and west coast... but ya... its all good

 

[Ecompost]

LOL gets a bit confusing,I'm thinking i'll go slow the first try with this a charged 5 gallon bucket per 4 by 4 raised bed

go on % buddy, all that cups shit is a minefield. Working out percentages by volume is much much easier. 5% mate, if you have 5 gallons of soil, working out 5% to add in is a synch.

 

[Ecompost]

Well I was thinking I would be having to do 1 till after this grow. Sometimes we try to go cheaper I went cheaper in the wrong places. The compost from home depot isn't compost. Its loaded with pieces of whole hardwood twigs. An uncharged biochar on top of that...my plants don't get much love from the micro.

I know the worms will turn the junk inro gold. Could be my imagination bit I swear my bed has sunk an inch nd a half since i put the worms in. That tells you that compost is terrible.

Coot raises hell about people using inferior humus sources and claiming his mix doesn't work. The best vermicompost comes from black leaf mold which I can aquire this fall. My house is located in a white oak forest. I've filled the pots with double munched leaf compost. I'm sure you read about lasagna layering. Now I'm at a crossroads. Work at building the biology. Maybe strip the mulch and add another 1" layer of pure casting. Top that with some MBP, karanja, and kelp. This was advised by coots if you're already established with poor humus source. I may have to drop big bucks on worm gold to really get it going. Like I said I've zoned in 2 hard on building soil biology with teas. Causing a bit of overwatering.

A lot of long time no till guys never brew a tea. They use a "EWC slurry" mixed with kelp or alfalfa...alfa be a bit hot so it needs to cook in the EWC for a week before making this slurry. Very similar to a tea except the ratio to water and EWC is 1:1 and you only bubble 6-18 hours. Spread it over your soil surface. Should have the consistency of a very creamy peanut butter.

Teas are out because bluejay explains all the enzymatic activity going on in a tea and he wants that to happen in his soil. As I noticed with a blumat all these inputs aren't viable. I use alfalfa straw as mulch which covers a lot of bioactivator teas. The worms love the stuff. When i took my other bed down the castings were holding all the mulch in clumps.

just add some rock dust to your worm bins, this is what worm gold is :-)

not sure i follow the debate on teas and enzymes. This makes no sense to me either way he says it. Do plants not need ready nutrients? What point is he trying to make? That tea is a waste of time and that there is a better method of applying bio active inputs over vast areas? it will happen in the soil when you use it. I am not understanding the point he is making.

Do you own a microscope? How are you determining your microbial activity, are you performing gene sequencing to know what you have or are you using input you think will attract what you need only without confirmation? if you can maintain min 6ppms DO2 in any media, it dont mattter about over watering so much otherwise hydropinics would never work. it is only when water drops out of O2 safety we need to worry right and with all that organic input in super soils, it will go west if you have a drop in DO2 levels

nothing wrong with EWC slurry by the way but honestly having enough of this to go over 10 acres is a tall ask. Thats a fuckin lot of worms and space. besides which slurry is often poorly applied and relies on a strong fungal mass to connect it to the entire site you may have to manage.

 

[Ecompost]

I have a friend whom we tested a new Bio Chain Reaction agent with. After application he had 20 days of flood on a grape vine farm, not a single loss of fruit, no cracking, no bitterness. his vines were under water. hang on i will dig out the pictures...

 

[Organikz]

just add some rock dust to your worm bins, this is what worm gold is :)

not sure i follow the debate on teas and enzymes. This makes no sense to me either way he says it. Do plants not need ready nutrients? What point is he trying to make? That tea is a waste of time and that there is a better method of applying bio active inputs over vast areas? it will happen in the soil when you use it. I am not understanding the point he is making.

Do you own a microscope? How are you determining your microbial activity, are you performing gene sequencing to know what you have or are you using input you think will attract what you need only without confirmation? if you can maintain min 6ppms DO2 in any media, it dont mattter about over watering so much otherwise hydropinics would never work. it is only when water drops out of O2 safety we need to worry right and with all that organic input in super soils, it will go west if you have a drop in DO2 levels

nothing wrong with EWC slurry by the way but honestly having enough of this to go over 10 acres is a tall ask. Thats a fuckin lot of worms and space. besides which slurry is often poorly applied and relies on a strong fungal mass to connect it to the entire site you may have to manage.

Blujay really utilizes the Fukuoka method in means of no outside compost besides top dress composting with kelp/karanja/MBP. They don't do SST anymore. They make flour out of premalted grain and water it in with fulvic acid. It's an SST on the soil surface along with food for worms.

I totally forgot I poured a half bag of coop poop in both 150g worm reactors. Would this cover rock dust? I know chickens have a gizzards so they eat pebbles and shit rock dust. Should I follow up? I know the worms have a gizzard also

Maybe i misunderstood his writing. Perhaps he's say8ng he gets the sam3 benefits by top dressing and letting the worms go to work on it. Also a lot of guys were brewing bio teas without proper equipment to monitor. You know how to use the microscope which I need to pick up. Once the tea would reach maximum life sustainability the oxygen is consumed quickly and anaerobic pathogens can begin to colonize.

This definitely doesn't apply to agriculture like your situation.

I know what you're saying about making sure they get to the mycellium web. Which brings up my next question...

Do you prefer fungal dominant or bacterial dominant. Would a fungal dominant soil life work in a container? Sorry your brain looks tasty and I'd like to pick it. Can fungi keep salt levels down in soil. It's my understand8ng mushroom compost is loaded with sodium. Would a fungal dominant soil be able to mitigate salts?

I've had it hammered in my head to keep it balanced. Apparently creating bio life geared towards fungal dominance is an option being practiced in vermaculture.

 

[Ecompost]

added whats in it is included: Humic, Fulvic Acid and Fulinic Acid, Amino Acids, Auxins, Gibberellins, Cytokinins, Protein, Fat, Mannitols, Alginic Acid, Undefined Sugars, and Betaine, many Vitamins(such as Vitamin A, B1, B6, B12, C, D, E, K, etc.) and the thousands of polyamine and hormone-like (no synthetic hormones) extracted from natural vegetable matter, each below 10-8 to 10-10 , these ingredients are high powered bio stimulants that impact efficacy on various stage of growth.
Each one litre bottle is enough to treat 10ha of land. Its not the toys sold in Hydrostores :-) this is 1:4000 - 1:6000 application rate, or rather 100ml per hectare. It certainly isnt cheap at point but in terms of use case costs, its a really low TCO. it works out at about $8.00 per hectare.

 

[Ecompost]

Blujay really utilizes the Fukuoka method in means of no outside compost besides top dress composting with kelp/karanja/MBP. They don't do SST anymore. They make flour out of premalted grain and water it in with fulvic acid. It's an SST on the soil surface along with food for worms.

I totally forgot I poured a half bag of coop poop in both 150g worm reactors. Would this cover rock dust? I know chickens have a gizzards so they eat pebbles and shit rock dust. Should I follow up? I know the worms have a gizzard also

Maybe i misunderstood his writing. Perhaps he's say8ng he gets the sam3 benefits by top dressing and letting the worms go to work on it. Also a lot of guys were brewing bio teas without proper equipment to monitor. You know how to use the microscope which I need to pick up. Once the tea would reach maximum life sustainability the oxygen is consumed quickly and anaerobic pathogens can begin to colonize.

This definitely doesn't apply to agriculture like your situation.

I know what you're saying about making sure they get to the mycellium web. Which brings up my next question...

Do you prefer fungal dominant or bacterial dominant. Would a fungal dominant soil life work in a container? Sorry your brain looks tasty and I'd like to pick it. Can fungi keep salt levels down in soil. It's my understand8ng mushroom compost is loaded with sodium. Would a fungal dominant soil be able to mitigate salts?

I've had it hammered in my head to keep it balanced. Apparently creating bio life geared towards fungal dominance is an option being practiced in vermaculture.

About dominance, I prefer what my plant responds best towards. This is typically as simple as saying, is this a single season and die, or a long lived plant? I try not to waste too much time chasing fungal mass in my annuals beds, that said, it is entropy to end with fungal dominance imo. hence some tillage will always be a tool. From the beach to the woodlands, its as if the soil is moving into adulthood if you like. As such its capacity to support wider diversity also increases, lets just call this experienced soil in the forest and baby soil at the beach. :-)
Where on this line of development does the plant exist in nature? it is this that determines the ideal F:B ratio. cannabis being a grassland plant is a 1:1 so carry on as you are buddy imo. only reason to change would be levels of toxins in the soil and or agitators like Na
AMF (Funneliformis mosseae) and PSF (Mortierella sp.SM-1) as we find on beach grown plum trees would suggest yes reference sodium levels in container grown plants, mitigating the potential Na- K hazard and also helping to maintain overall P access
i dont think it is possible to perform such significant wizardry without combining fungal types AMF and PSF, DSE and so on, but anyone of these actors will reduce Na levels ref uptake alone. Again we find ourselves in the trap of diversity :-)

http://www.cropj.com/zai_8_6_2014_945_950.pdf

 

[Ecompost]

I dont mean to spam this thread but like I said you guys are cool as hell and you understand metabolic processes of a plant and soil solution chemistry.

A hydro guy tried to call my diagnosis wrong and said the plants not getting enough light was causing burned tips and edges. Saying I'm spreading false information. The same guys that tell you to cut off your leaves before budding and "feed" sugar to the plants...

I was about to go back to grasscity but seeing there is actually a higher learning to be had here with this thread. @oldskol4evr it's a small little piece of real estate here but I'm sticking around because of this thread. I need to look into Bach comfrey....sidenote: named after the road where it was developed not the man who developed it...i believe this is the one that doesnt spread...i know comfrey is invasive if you aren't careful. One little piece will grow into a whole plant without any tending to propogation and the stuff is impossible to totally remove.

use the bocking14 comfrey or suffer its rowdy tendency to spread. Your input here is most welcome mate. i am glad you came, and gladder still for your continued presence

 

[Ecompost]

I felt the same way but honestly the simple methods work. One guy still uses standard LOS recipe.

I began to understand when you start making things complicated...well things get complicated.

They do follow adjustments coot makes. He's down to MBP, karanja, and kelp meal for nutrient amendments. He found that MBP and high quality castings cover liming and chitin source even more effectively as crab meal. it can be broken down faster due to thinner layers of carbonate releasing more chotinase. The guy knows his shit and he wont put something out until hes tested it on the same cut from afganistan he aquired in the 70s. Crazy huh? Its smart. He can read this strain like a book so he can truly see how tweaked inputs affect them. His amendments, they're all really more geared toward feeding the soil.

I am glad he tuned his list down, it was getting out of hand all these super soil bases imo. I can grow really great pot in clay and sand, not a single add more. if i used fresh clay each grow i would never need nutes, only bio stims and biology, access to new clays. Do you know many clays contain up to 170 compound forms of phosphate alone. I can often get many grows from a higher CEC clay before i need to add anything at all.
I do think my plants taste a little better when i tweak stuff with other adds tho, but as for adding 10+ things to say peat coco bases, I really cant be bothered. i would rather water in high quality inputs as and when and not have to rue the day i used partially cooked organics which i might then struggle to adjust in time. Of course not all liquid producers are equal. Ask the guys here about BPN's liquids versus say my own Bio Veg. bad organics are as bad as any synthetic

 

[Ecompost]

Reading too much has gotten me into trouble. As humans we read info and all of a sudden that's the answer to any problem in referring to organics. Thats our credo. The trick is dont stay focused. If i see deficiencies i ignore and just continue business as usual. We tend to overcorrect because nature is already workimg on balancing it out. The true fix to any problem is a "fix anything EWC slurry". Mix a 1/4 cup of kelp meal in there and your plants will start throwing nodes like there's no tomorrow. Pray like it's sunday every day.

agreed, we have to be careful to not over respond. EG swinging pH to chase P using an organic acid that is itself created by plants during a KREB session will have a dramatic impact on the outcome value of your end product. Balance is not something most of us understand. We can interpret the word is all, but we cant often act in its image. here is to trying tho :-)