Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

[ahemait]

Thank you
I practiced with the same everything and the same breeders seeds for a few years to get those results.

Sex changing seed run of fantasticalnessage

So I was running low on seeds and decided to do some seed runs, and shit, might as well do as many as possible right? Right! So theres Canuck cookies, cali og kush x silver haze, blue thai, 2 mystery plants(one might be jack herer), og cherry, strawberry cough, durban poison, bc god bud...

www.thcfarmer.com

There, i got unlazy for a minute.

 

[Rikismom420]

Do you fill out the entire growth space while doing that? I once only had two plants running, which took around a 3x3 space in my 4x4 tent, I had 0% popcorn bud on that run, only giant cola's down til the bottom of the plant. I speculate it's because the light bounced through the tent walls to the bottom of the plant.

And yeah, I realize it's the leaves doing the hard work to increase bud size, not the buds themselves. Just thinking that most likely bud development is at it's best when the buds nearest sugar/fan leaves get the light, instead of having the plant transport the resources from the top to the bottom.

I just can't wait to do this test, I'm optimistic I can improve yields with defoliation, however I'm prepared for the harvest to be reduced too. It's really frightening to cut down the leaves, when I have not done so before (well a few failed tests when I was starting this hobby and had no idea what I was doing, lol), and it will definitely be a shame if this experiment fails. But yeah, you can't get better without experimenting :)

Well have fun...I takes leaves off for more light and do scrog but I save all leaves and make cannabutter with leaves and a little trim. It’s kick ass too.

 

[Rikismom420]

Very nice - good effort. I guess important here is it has nice structure and presumably there was good space around her to ensure some light to the lower buds. I SOGed for years until I calculated I'd likely get 15 years in prison:-) (too many plant numbers.. wiser to go larger and less numbers) I would never even think about defoliating anything (why bother?) in SOG..

Yeppers that old legal crap.....go to jail....if one too many little weeders ...I am under that certain amount but don’t have money for seeds and extra space so I doing autoflowers and lst and I take leaves to get light...and run 18/6 ....and just let them grow...hoping my fem seeds don’t hermie...so that is what I do,24/ just doesn’t feel right..I think they need the dark time to do their plant thang...lots of info here...thx guys and

 

[Shotyoung]

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

This is the time you all have been waiting for, the product has been dried and has started the curing process. Overall I would say the test is a success, and I think I've done a good job at keeping all things equal. However, the results were not what I expected.

And the winner is.... Control group! (no defoliation)

Control group:
Plant 1: 142.5g
Plant 2: 148.0g
Plant 3: 133.0g
Total: 423.5g

Defoliation group:
Plant A: 137.5g
Plant B: 116.5g
Plant C: 130.0g
Total: 384.5g

Total yield 808 grams, 1.56g/w (average power draw during flowering)

Control group also had bigger flowers, less larfy shit, so it was easier to trim and has a better bag appeal.
My conclusion is, pruning plants for increased light penetration (during week 2 flowering) decreases yield. Mind you, this doesn't prove that pruning doesn't work to increase yields, and needs further studying and testing done using different techniques.

Next time I will be conducting a test of the lollipop technique.

Overall, I'm really happy with this grow, I smashed my goal of achieving 1 gram / watt, using my new "quantum board" lights, and I highly recommend these lights to anyone else.

Discuss, argue, point to me what I did wrong, so I can make better testing in the future.
Thanks for sticking with the ride! :)

F Man, I want to thank for sharing this very informative grow. You've answered a lot of questions this newbie had and I do appreciate all the work you've put into this forum.

 

[Mr.jiujitsu]

Make me feel sad considering I ran out of time and didn’t get to defoliate till tonight, week two of flower, but it was a must do to the thick bushes.

 

[FatManatee]

Call me crazy, but I feel like an organism evolving over millions of years wouldn't purposely do so in a manner to retard it's ability to survive and flourish(shading it's reproductive bits and making them grow smaller/poorly).

Evolution is not "perfect", ask that from our tailbone. Or how about our wisdom teeth, that mostly cause us ilness instead of benefit?

 

[Medigrow]

Call me crazy, but I feel like an organism evolving over millions of years wouldn't purposely do so in a manner to retard it's ability to survive and flourish(shading it's reproductive bits and making them grow smaller/poorly).

I've tried this myself on a few plants and never managed to increase yields.

Also, bang up grow there ya chubby dolphin. Well done.

I've managed a 12-15% yield increase using defoliation vs not. Same room, same environment, same light, same nuts and distributed position to avoid a "good" or "bad" spot.

 

[hawkman]

I've managed a 12-15% yield increase using defoliation vs not. Same room, same environment, same light, same nuts and distributed position to avoid a "good" or "bad" spot.

when growing indoor one has to defoliate in conjunction with their grow room size - !!!!

 

[IcloudA]

It’s not beneficial!
You can find out the answer by yourself when you have a full growroom with same clones growing under same conditions but let half of them grow without touching the leafs and the other half remove some leafs... on the end you can scale the results
on the other hand removing lower branches may be beneficial in some cases (mostly when growing indoors)

 

[Jimster]

Indoors, some leaf removal is beneficial in my opinion, but a blanket removal of large fan leaves and others isn't beneficial, IMO. The difference lies in the degree of leaf removal. Too much decreases the energy available to the plant for growth, while too little causes a lot of bud sites to be self shading and a low yield except for the canopy. This can be changed by different training methods, but soon you are changing your growing processes too accommodate your earlier changes in growing (leaf removal or not).

 

[Lit Farmer]

...To my understanding, all leaves should receive at least 200 PAR, so that they can sustain themselves through photosynthesis.

Conclusion is that my plants are way too tall at the moment. I still need more experience on my belt to know the exact time to flip the switch so that all leaves would get the minimum of 200 par. I guess this is why people lollipop too, but I think lollipopping is useless too if the plant height is kept correct. It's a useful method when plants have been let to grow too tall. As so is defoliating to get ight penetration for bottom leaves.

You nailed it here. This is the science. Leaves receiving less than 200 ppfd are burning more energy than they produce. That said, only modest yield increases are found in defoliating all such leaves. However, the benefits for pest control are really where you benefit as these lower performing leaves will be attached first almost certainly.

As for needing to lollipop - cultivars have many different growth patterns and different lights have differing ability to penetrate the canopy. Hence, the need to defoliate is determined by more factors than can be outlined simply.

In short, do it in the name of science! lol

Cheers
--LF

 

[Medigrow]

It’s not beneficial!
You can find out the answer by yourself when you have a full growroom with same clones growing under same conditions but let half of them grow without touching the leafs and the other half remove some leafs... on the end you can scale the results
on the other hand removing lower branches may be beneficial in some cases (mostly when growing indoors)

it is... I did exactly this, half of the plants defoliated... Same room, same everything except defoliation vs not and 12-15% yield increase.

 

[MIMedGrower]

it is... I did exactly this, half of the plants defoliated... Same room, same everything except defoliation vs not and 12-15% yield increase.

This can mean you do not have sufficient airflow or light or the plants are too crowded so the technique helps in your situation. It is not a yes it works or no it doesnt work thing. Defoliation is merely another tool we use to fix a problem.

 

[Medigrow]

This can mean you do not have sufficient airflow or light or the plants are too crowded so the technique helps in your situation. It is not a yes it works or no it doesnt work thing. Defoliation is merely another tool we use to fix a problem.

In SCROG, indeed it will become crowded, that's the point of scrogging :)

 

[hawkman]

Indoors, some leaf removal is beneficial in my opinion, but a blanket removal of large fan leaves and others isn't beneficial, IMO. The difference lies in the degree of leaf removal. Too much decreases the energy available to the plant for growth, while too little causes a lot of bud sites to be self shading and a low yield except for the canopy. This can be changed by different training methods, but soon you are changing your growing processes too accommodate your earlier changes in growing (leaf removal or not).

a good rule of thumb is "if the leaf you remove increase light coverage of 2-3 x's greater than the removed" leaf then defoliate it"

 

[Bobrown14]

Good to see someone actually agrees that de-foil doesn't do what we think it does.

Leaves and specially fan leaves have SEVERAL functions including hormone signals to the apical meristem to produce flowers. How when we change the light cycle the plants begin flowering. For some reason people think more light on the flowers is better. OK well how do the flowers know when to actually grow??
The fan leaves do the messaging to the plant to produce flowers.

Thats one and for cannabis its what we are looking for.

Another good and huge reason for NOT removing fans is transpiration. This is how the plants get nutrients from the roots. Take off the fans, you reduce the amount of transpiration and nutrient uptake.

Another issue that likely wasn't discussed - the timing of the de-foil. I'm suggesting that you take off fans in early flower it will reduce yields even more that say de-foil in VEG.

Also fan leaves store nutrients in the early to mid stage of the leaf life cycle. Then they give back those stored nutrients to the FLOWERS coming down the stretch. So removing them is non-sense really. Fan leaves have a different life cycle than the plant. Why you see leaves changing color before the plant is ready for harvest. The reason is plants are giving back the stored nutrients (chlorophyll) to the flowers to reproduce. Chlorophyll is green so why you see older leaves turning yellow, they are slowly giving food to the plant. Leave them go and fall off.

Cannabis doesn't have fruits that need sun to ripen like say an apple tree or grapes. It's got flowers. De-foil cannabis is silly really. It's my belief that people that do it, can't keep hands off the plants and somehow use de-foil as an excuse to fiddle with plants.

I rarely even touch my plants. They have pheromones and hormones in the leaves that can both tell other plants there are pests (you people doing de-foil - same as an animal eating leaves), and the hormones that will change the flavor of the leaves so the pests (you) don't like the flavor. Food for thought there. I could go on.

"I'm taking off leaves so I must be helping the plants." That's non-sense really.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Good to see someone actually agrees that de-foil doesn't do what we think it does.

Leaves and specially fan leaves have SEVERAL functions including hormone signals to the apical meristem to produce flowers. How when we change the light cycle the plants begin flowering. For some reason people think more light on the flowers is better. OK well how do the flowers know when to actually grow??
The fan leaves do the messaging to the plant to produce flowers.

Thats one and for cannabis its what we are looking for.

Another good and huge reason for NOT removing fans is transpiration. This is how the plants get nutrients from the roots. Take off the fans, you reduce the amount of transpiration and nutrient uptake.

Another issue that likely wasn't discussed - the timing of the de-foil. I'm suggesting that you take off fans in early flower it will reduce yields even more that say de-foil in VEG.

Also fan leaves store nutrients in the early to mid stage of the leaf life cycle. Then they give back those stored nutrients to the FLOWERS coming down the stretch. So removing them is non-sense really. Fan leaves have a different life cycle than the plant. Why you see leaves changing color before the plant is ready for harvest. The reason is plants are giving back the stored nutrients (chlorophyll) to the flowers to reproduce. Chlorophyll is green so why you see older leaves turning yellow, they are slowly giving food to the plant. Leave them go and fall off.

Cannabis doesn't have fruits that need sun to ripen like say an apple tree or grapes. It's got flowers. De-foil cannabis is silly really. It's my belief that people that do it, can't keep hands off the plants and somehow use de-foil as an excuse to fiddle with plants.

I rarely even touch my plants. They have pheromones and hormones in the leaves that can both tell other plants there are pests (you people doing de-foil - same as an animal eating leaves), and the hormones that will change the flavor of the leaves so the pests (you) don't like the flavor. Food for thought there. I could go on.

"I'm taking off leaves so I must be helping the plants." That's non-sense really.

I agree. Nicely said.

 

[hawkman]

Good to see someone actually agrees that de-foil doesn't do what we think it does.

Leaves and specially fan leaves have SEVERAL functions including hormone signals to the apical meristem to produce flowers. How when we change the light cycle the plants begin flowering. For some reason people think more light on the flowers is better. OK well how do the flowers know when to actually grow??
The fan leaves do the messaging to the plant to produce flowers.

Thats one and for cannabis its what we are looking for.

Another good and huge reason for NOT removing fans is transpiration. This is how the plants get nutrients from the roots. Take off the fans, you reduce the amount of transpiration and nutrient uptake.

Another issue that likely wasn't discussed - the timing of the de-foil. I'm suggesting that you take off fans in early flower it will reduce yields even more that say de-foil in VEG.

Also fan leaves store nutrients in the early to mid stage of the leaf life cycle. Then they give back those stored nutrients to the FLOWERS coming down the stretch. So removing them is non-sense really. Fan leaves have a different life cycle than the plant. Why you see leaves changing color before the plant is ready for harvest. The reason is plants are giving back the stored nutrients (chlorophyll) to the flowers to reproduce. Chlorophyll is green so why you see older leaves turning yellow, they are slowly giving food to the plant. Leave them go and fall off.

Cannabis doesn't have fruits that need sun to ripen like say an apple tree or grapes. It's got flowers. De-foil cannabis is silly really. It's my belief that people that do it, can't keep hands off the plants and somehow use de-foil as an excuse to fiddle with plants.

I rarely even touch my plants. They have pheromones and hormones in the leaves that can both tell other plants there are pests (you people doing de-foil - same as an animal eating leaves), and the hormones that will change the flavor of the leaves so the pests (you) don't like the flavor. Food for thought there. I could go on.

"I'm taking off leaves so I must be helping the plants." That's non-sense really.

I do hate to "take" from the plant - I agree but the positive effect out weight's the negative effect more light = bigger buds/plant

 

[Dirtbag]

For me there is no question, in a semi crowded grow room looking to optimize yield, a bit of leaf removal is necessary to ensure good airflow, improve light penetration to the bottom of the canopy and even reduce transpiration somewhat to avoid overly humid conditions.

However a plant with plenty of space to grow doesnt have those conditions attached to it, especially outdoors, so leaf removal in that situation is likely counter productive.

Different methods for different circumstances, it's just a tool in the toolbox. I know personally my recent grow required some defoliation just before it went to flower otherwise it would choke itself out. But I dont like to touch the plants or remove anything while they are flowering until the very last week, I pull any yellow or heavily faded leaves off, I feel the bit of stress helps the plants to ripen at that stage, and again lowers transpiration and RH at a point where I want to reduce risk of budrot.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I do hate to "take" from the plant - I agree but the positive effect out weight's the negative effect more light = bigger buds/plant

I ran 3 different known cuttings 3 times (well 6 total) with one defoliated to different degrees and the other no leaves removed at all and every time all 3 with all their leaves grew more bud.

In fact all the most potent plants I have grown had little or no issues from the start to finish amd had all their leaves. Even the new starter singles from sprout.

I tested all kinds of stuff with those cuttings.