Top Down Yellowing Leaves... After deep reflection I still can't figure it out...

[ethcan]

Hey everyone. I am having an issue that has been plaguing me for quite some time now.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong even after a thorough reflection, so I'm reaching out to see if someone can help me out.

Basically what occurs is a slowing of the growth and a very intense yellowing from the top down. If left on automatic daily irrigation, the plant will die once in flower. I will attach as many photos as I can of the symptoms.

This same symptomology has been occuring my flower rooms as well. I basically axxed 30% of my yield this last flower run due to plants looking like this. Previously in these flower rooms I was fertigating twice a day (probably way too much, I wasn't measuring how much runoff I was getting) and plants that took on this symptomology would look worse and worse and worse, until they would eventually just wilt dry and die.

I'm going to list all my variables and make it very easy to understand my plants.


-Nutrients
Jacks in the 321 formula
Power SI
Heavy 16 Roots
Hypochlorous Acid (Athena Ag Cleanse)
Phosphoric Acid for pH Down (Used rarely)
Potassium Bicarbonate for pH Up (Used often)

-Sprays
Plant Therapy every 3 days
Spinosad
Azaguard

-Media
~1.1gal (4L) of Char Coir coco perlite 50/50 mix.

-Lighting
Gavita DE 1000w HPS/MH

-High CO2 (1100ppm)
-VPD: I try to keep it around ~1.0kpa
-80*F 65%-70% relative humidity
-lots and lots of air movement.


Watering Habits:

I was previously watering daily in this room with enough water to produce 20% runoff. I was doing this through my drip system. When the yellowing began to come in full force, I thought "overwatering" and have now been picking each plant up daily and feeding when it is significantly lighter than full saturation but does not look dry (allowing dry downs but not too dry)

Currently they are being fed (starting with RO water)
pH 5.8
EC 1.4mS
Jacks 321
Power SI
Roots
Cleanse

I have runoff collectors and I am getting constant readings of
pH 6.4
EC 2.2


It is worth noting that I pulled a few of the sick plants out of their pots and did observe less developed root systems than some of the healthier ones, although this was NOT a universal rule as there were also yellow plants with great pearly white dense root systems.

Also you will note some spray damage. That was caused by a foliar feed recipe with a pH far too acidic. That has now been rectified.

Some of my theories are,
I initially overwatered this crop by giving daily irrigations too soon.
I then backed off too much out of fear of overwatering, and allowed them to dry, allowing salts to build.
Now they are locked out as hell and I have no idea how to fix them.

Each day they are not seeming to be improving. I ensure good runoff at each feeding and am allowing a bit of a dryback to ensure I'm not overwatering.


A few of the severely yellow plants that were clearly stunted also had very poor stabilizer roots and the trunk would swing with the fans. It needed a stake.


Am I just in need of a really really high volume flush and then up my EC?

How I'm used to my rooms looking... This is stressful!

 

[Dr.B]

This looks and feels way out of my league but have you considered an infection or disease? The twisting and deformation in the leaves... It almost looks like tobacco mosaic virus... not seeing the telltale light and dark patches though... If you believe in that sort of thing. I know some people don't.

I'm only leaning to a pathogen because by the looks of it and from what I read you have had this room running successfully. If nothing has changed environmentally and you're on top of the water which it seems you are a pathogen seems like a likely culprit. I'm not a plant doctor just trying to reason it out. Lockout seems to manifest from the bottom up, starvation top down. This is everywhere....

 

[ethcan]

This looks and feels way out of my league but have you considered an infection or disease? The twisting and deformation in the leaves... It almost looks like tobacco mosaic virus... not seeing the telltale light and dark patches though... If you believe in that sort of thing. I know some people don't.

I'm only leaning to a pathogen because by the looks of it and from what I read you have had this room running successfully. If nothing has changed environmentally and you're on top of the water which it seems you are a pathogen seems like a likely culprit. I'm not a plant doctor just trying to reason it out.

Yes I have considered this. I have encountered dudding before and I do not have anything like that in here. No signs of TMV.

I am currently using Hypochlorous acid in their feedings as part of a preventative against root borne pathogens like pythium and fusarium. It's possible, but less likely than other options I think, though I'm open to any thoughts otherwise.

 

[Dr.B]

Yes I have considered this. I have encountered dudding before and I do not have anything like that in here. No signs of TMV.

I am currently using Hypochlorous acid in their feedings as part of a preventative against root borne pathogens like pythium and fusarium. It's possible, but less likely than other options I think, though I'm open to any thoughts otherwise.

Yeah, way out of my league, I just figured since no one had touched it lol. I've worked with plants in similar settings but never in a big picture way. I hope you find what you need here...

 

[ethcan]

Yeah, way out of my league, I just figured since no one had touched it lol. I've worked with plants in similar settings but never in a big picture way. I hope you find what you need here...

Much appreciate it!

 

[Aqua Man]

EC is to high should be good at 1.6. I would say flush 3x volume and run some enzymes though them if you have. Pots look half empty and are 1.1gal? Wow prob need to be feeding like 6 times a day. I'm not a coco grower let me tag one for you before you do anything.

@cemchris you mind bro?

 

[ethcan]

EC is to high should be good at 1.6. I would say flush 3x volume and run some enzymes though them if you have. Pots look half empty and are 1.1gal? Wow prob need to be feeding like 6 times a day. I'm not a coco grower let me tag one for you before you do anything.

@cemchris you mind bro?

Yes I am switching to smaller pots for my next run so that the pots are filled to the top.

i tried daily irrigation’s but it just seemed to make this worse?

 

[Aqua Man]

Yes I am switching to smaller pots for my next run so that the pots are filled to the top.

i tried daily irrigation’s but it just seemed to make this worse?

Yeah im thinking like 6-8 times a day in that amount of media... if it can even be dome in 1/2 gal. Wait for @cemchris and see what he says

 

[ethcan]

Yeah im thinking like 6-8 times a day in that amount of media... if it can even be dome in 1/2 gal. Wait for @cemchris and see what he says

No sorry, those are 3 gal pots with about 4L of media in them.
the pots that will replacing them in future runs are square 1 gal plastic pots.

 

[cemchris]

Hmmmmm

Knock some stuff out first.

Is this on dosers or are you tanking it?

Is this a new room or a recently changed setup? Or have you been running the same nutes and setup (same media strains ect) for a while then all of a sudden took a nose dive?

How old are those plant?

What do the moms look like or are you buying clones from a nursery?

How long are you vegging and are you vegging in the same pot?

Is veg also dripped?

 

[Aqua Man]

No sorry, those are 3 gal pots with about 4L of media in them.
the pots that will replacing them in future runs are square 1 gal plastic pots.

OK that makes more sense. Still thinking maybe 3-4 times a day.

 

[ethcan]

Hmmmmm

Knock some stuff out first.

Is this on dosers or are you tanking it?

Is this a new room or a recently changed setup? Or have you been running the same nutes and setup (smae media strains ect) for a while then all of a sudden took a nose dive?

How old are those plant?

What do the moms look like or are you buying clones from a nursery?

How long are you vegging and are you vegging in the same pot?

Is veg also dripped?

Tank. (Order: silica, jacks, roots, ph up)

Sam setup for a while, things were never perfect but really took a nose dive.

those plants are some 25 days from planted clone.

Clones are taken from the apical top shoot of veg plants. Mothers only help to increase the clone count, not the primary clone supply.

Previously I would only news to veg 21 days from planted clone but obviously with these issues it’s taking much much longer.

These plants were planted straight into this pot and never transplanted.

This crop was dripped initially but I backed off because I thought I was overwatering.

thanks in advance!

 

[ethcan]

OK that makes more sense. Still thinking maybe 3-4 times a day.

I feel like that would absolutely drown them. I feel like when I’ve not allowed them to dry back a bit they just continue to get even worse. limp weak and slow growth and eventual root rot.

 

[ethcan]

I should add. Plenty of algae on the perlite of the worst plants.

 

[cemchris]

cool its just easier to cross some stuff off initially.

Where the plants already going south when you took the cuts in veg? Did you have a lower rooting rates in your cuts this last round or a higher number of dying?

The past successful runs were in the same coco mix and same size? You have experience running smaller pot dripped coco?

The nutes seem fine. The enviro seem fine. I asked if it was a new setup to cross off off-gasing from fresh construction or stuff like spray foam.


When you change the pots consider Grow bags or Fabrics. Grow bags are prob #1 for the work flow side of it and the cheapest option. If going to fabrics either buy them in bulk or consider the Char block replacement for wool.


As far as irrigation

With the amount of media you have I would be watering at min 3 times a day. With the amount of lights and co2 blasting more then that. You can get away with daily watering in 5 gals to runoff. That is even pushing it though.

The only thing I don't really know about is the Cleanse. Did you have root issues previously or is this being used as a preventative? Root issues arent really too much of a concern in DTW coco. It's more of stuff like pests not diseases unless you have crazy hot rooms which you dont.

I always used KOH for Up or a mix of Pot Carb and KOH. Never strait Pot carb but if it works no reason to change.

All the same things in the nutes on the good previous runs before the nose dive or did any one thing in that change?

 

[ethcan]

cool its just easier to cross some stuff off initially.

Where the plants already going south when you took the cuts in veg? Did you have a lower rooting rates in your cuts this last round or a higher number of dying?

The past successful runs were in the same coco mix and same size? You have experience running smaller pot dripped coco?

The nutes seem fine. The enviro seem fine. I asked if it was a new setup to cross off off-gasing from fresh construction or stuff like spray foam.


When you change the pots consider Grow bags or Fabrics. Grow bags are prob #1 for the work flow side of it and the cheapest option. If going to fabrics either buy them in bulk or consider the Char block replacement for wool.


As far as irrigation

With the amount of media you have I would be watering at min 3 times a day. With the amount of lights and co2 blasting more then that. You can get away with daily watering in 5 gals to runoff. That is even pushing it though.

The only thing I don't really know about is the Cleanse. Did you have root issues previously or is this being used as a preventative? Root issues arent really too much of a concern in DTW coco. It's more of stuff like pests not diseases unless you have crazy hot rooms which you dont.

I always used KOH for Up or a mix of Pot Carb and KOH. Never strait Pot carb but if it works no reason to change.

All the same things in the nutes on the good previous runs before the nose dive or did any one thing in that change?

Same coco, more media. More like 2.5 ish gallons, I wanted to downsize so that I could multifeed and take full advantage of coco.

i did have root issues before. My roots never really get ridiculously blown out and thick like some peoples I see in the forums. I just wanted to run the cleanse as a preventative.

this current crop was actually doing okay, I was running a higher EC and watering to runoff daily.


Irrigating 3 times per day would leave this coco absolutely soaked. I pulled up numerous plants which have died in the past few months and there were just no roots and the coco was completely soaked which is why I have backed off my irrigation practices so much. I guess in a sense I’ve lost a lot of confidence.

I can give it a try, but am terrified of things just rapidly tumbling down hill.

 

[Aqua Man]

Same coco, more media. More like 2.5 ish gallons, I wanted to downsize so that I could multifeed and take full advantage of coco.

i did have root issues before. My roots never really get ridiculously blown out and thick like some peoples I see in the forums. I just wanted to run the cleanse as a preventative.

this current crop was actually doing okay, I was running a higher EC and watering to runoff daily.


Irrigating 3 times per day would leave this coco absolutely soaked. I pulled up numerous plants which have died in the past few months and there were just no roots and the coco was completely soaked which is why I have backed off my irrigation practices so much. I guess in a sense I’ve lost a lot of confidence.

I can give it a try, but am terrified of things just rapidly tumbling down hill.

Just gonna say coco should be 90-100% saturated at all times. Overwatering is not to much water, its lack of oxygen. It's not like soil and much more like hydro where the roots stay submerged. The goal is to fertigate often to keep the media balanced. Ppm, ph and nutrient ratios.

You will get by for a while but when underwatering coco it's only a matter of time. Usually in flower

 

[ethcan]

Just gonna say coco should be 90-100% saturated at all times. Overwatering is not to much water, its lack of oxygen. It's not like soil and much more like hydro where the roots stay submerged. The goal is to fertigate often to keep the media balanced. Ppm, ph and nutrient ratios.

You will get by for a while but when underwatering coco it's only a matter of time. Usually in flower

Yeah I know I've read CocoForCannabis blog thoroughly several times over the past few weeks....

I really want to just go for it with the daily irrigation but am quite afraid of the roots not being able to take it.

I guess I don't have much to lose at this point.

I'm interested to hear about feed size, and how often.

I would imagine I should irrigate 2 hours after lights on, to runoff, and then again, to runoff, half way through the day? (18HR on 6HR off)

 

[Aqua Man]

Yeah I know I've read CocoForCannabis blog thoroughly several times over the past few weeks....

I really want to just go for it with the daily irrigation but am quite afraid of the roots not being able to take it.

I guess I don't have much to lose at this point.

I'm interested to hear about feed size, and how often.

I would imagine I should irrigate 2 hours after lights on, to runoff, and then again, to runoff, half way through the day? (18HR on 6HR off)

Everytime to runoff. I have yet to do coco but seen a lot of them done and gearing up to do it. @cemchris is the guy you need to talk to bit I would think 4 times a day and a good flush to get it started. Test runoff regularly. You have an amazing coco grower helping you so take this with a grain of salt and ask him. That's prob the best advice I can give

 

[ethcan]

Everytime to runoff. I have yet to do coco but seen a lot of them done and gearing up to do it. @cemchris is the guy you need to talk to bit I would think 4 times a day and a good flush to get it started. Test runoff regularly. You have an amazing coco grower helping you so take this with a grain of salt and ask him. That's prob the best advice I can give

thank you both for the help and the input is very well appreciated.

i also think a flush is in order.

Cant wait to hear your thoughts @cemchris.