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High THCV strains and breeding them

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High THCV strains and breeding them

TripsRabbit 1,055 Replies 143,897 Views
Page 28 of 53 · Replies 541–560 of 1,056
#541
Kanzeon said:
It might be a good idea to run two parallel lines and breed them together down the road.

For example, something like (THCV x Malawi) x (THCV x Ethiopian) bred in parallel and then crossed once high THCV phenos of both were found/isolated and suitable males were found.

If the end goals are solely high THCV with minimal loss of vigor in offspring, it makes sense to work each line separately for a few generations and then cross (selfed or pollinated with a suitable male) high THCV phenos of each so there there's some hybrid vigor. That way even the recessive genes are of high-THCV plants and there is a lower chance that other cannabinoids show up down the line. Less selfing would then hypothetically be involved in obtaining homozygosity in the final seed, if that's desired.
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Working lines in parallel in the schema you outlined makes sense to me.
 
#542
Milson said:
You're talking about this with a whole lot of certainty. Sounds like you have it figured out pretty well.

🤔
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Scientific certainty is one of those things that comes in degrees. Based on my education and experience, yes, I have it figured out pretty well. I realize that probably doesn't fit the model you use to figure things out; that's fine. And, that's not to say I'm not open to new info or ideas, so have at it. But, new ideas need substance and evidence. It's not enough to say: Because I think so.
 
#543
Skeptik said:
Scientific certainty is one of those things that comes in degrees. Based on my education and experience, yes, I have it figured out pretty well. I realize that probably doesn't fit the model you use to figure things out; that's fine. And, that's not to say I'm not open to new info or ideas, so have at it. But, new ideas need substance and evidence. It's not enough to say: Because I think so.
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📽

You have cited nothing!
 
#544
Kanzeon said:
It might be a good idea to run two parallel lines and breed them together down the road.

For example, something like (THCV x Malawi) x (THCV x Ethiopian) bred in parallel and then crossed once high THCV phenos of both were found/isolated and suitable males were found.

If the end goals are solely high THCV with minimal loss of vigor in offspring, it makes sense to work each line separately for a few generations and then cross (selfed or pollinated with a suitable male) high THCV phenos of each so there there's some hybrid vigor. That way even the recessive genes are of high-THCV plants and there is a lower chance that other cannabinoids show up down the line. Less selfing would then hypothetically be involved in obtaining homozygosity in the final seed, if that's desired.
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I pretty much agree, but it would be wise to consider that we're dealing with valuable genetics, and going with MrToad's suggestion of preserving the THC-Vic genetics first makes sense to me. Reversing a selected female and crossing it with another solid female, would be optimal. Might be worth growing a couple females from the other promising strains concurrently, and let the reversed THC-Vic female open pollinate everything. Then, let the pheno hunt begin.
 
#545
Good conversation gang...

Milson..Can you please elaborate on your strategy for identifying the THCV mom?

Second question..If you stick with just one mom aren't you concerned you're tossing out "buried" beneficial "heterozygous" traits in the moms you've tossed?

Lastly, as a general comment for the board.

I actively studied genetics in a time long ago back in university. That said, everyone is talking about genetics as a Black or White event...Has anyone read anything about the potential for "Incomplete Dominant" or " Codominant" influence...or perhaps a blending of traits that may produce some of these more exotic cannabinoids?

Milson said:
I would select the best THC-Victory mom I could find and hit that with the best dad I could find in another strain and then take the best two fems from that F1 and reverse one of them to go digging in the "F2s" of that for an elite.

The bx to the original THC-Victory fem might lead to higher THCV on average but I think the potential in the F2s is higher.
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#547
MrToad said:
Good conversation gang...

Milson..Can you please elaborate on your strategy for identifying the THCV mom?

Second question..If you stick with just one mom aren't you concerned you're tossing out "buried" beneficial "heterozygous" traits in the moms you've tossed?

Lastly, as a general comment for the board.

I actively studied genetics in a time long ago back in university. That said, everyone is talking about genetics as a Black or White event...Has anyone read anything about the potential for "Incomplete Dominant" or " Codominant" influence...or perhaps a blending of traits that may produce some of these more exotic cannabinoids?
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The strategy for identifying the THCV mom is TLC testing, which @Moe.Red is very adept at.
 
#548
MrToad said:
I actively studied genetics in a time long ago back in university. That said, everyone is talking about genetics as a Black or White event...Has anyone read anything about the potential for "Incomplete Dominant" or " Codominant" influence...or perhaps a blending of traits that may produce some of these more exotic cannabinoids?
Click to expand...

Genetics are so much more complicated than we'd like to think; Mendel gave us only a part of the picture, so the best we can do at this level -- maybe until we can buy in to a CRISPR unit -- is muddle along, for the most part, assuming simplicity, but not being surprised by unexpected phenos.
 
#550
Skeptik said:
I pretty much agree, but it would be wise to consider that we're dealing with valuable genetics, and going with MrToad's suggestion of preserving the THC-Vic genetics first makes sense to me. Reversing a selected female and crossing it with another solid female, would be optimal. Might be worth growing a couple females from the other promising strains concurrently, and let the reversed THC-Vic female open pollinate everything. Then, let the pheno hunt begin.
Click to expand...

The great thing is that those two aren't mutually exclusive. There's nothing to stop someone from cloning and selfing one of the THCV moms to preserve those genetics while creating parallel lines for the future from the same genetics. I'd assume a double blind THCV test for all plants harvested, keeping clones around of every plant until the highest THCV phenos were found and then discarding the rest, then crossing the highest THCV phenos would be the most direct way to create a sustainable THCV strain.
 
#551
MrToad said:
I actively studied genetics in a time long ago back in university. That said, everyone is talking about genetics as a Black or White event...Has anyone read anything about the potential for "Incomplete Dominant" or " Codominant" influence...or perhaps a blending of traits that may produce some of these more exotic cannabinoids?
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Yes. And I think this question is not well understood by anyone and is what causes the complexity to exceed what can be adequately described by anything but the most exhaustive catalog of interactions.

Essentially to my understanding, the two alleles at a locus are each contributed by one parent and each contain instructions for the cell to form a protein at a certain rate in a certain structure (which can vary to some degree). While these can be very simple, such as the classic punnet square dominance case, they can also not be simple and be additive (or perhaps another function....and in terms of frequency and maybe structure, idk...the mathematical modelling translation obviously falls into another dimension with structure). A simple version (complete dominance) is essentially when one allele is enough to lock in the protein production structure/frequency it encodes for and an extra allele with that same code does nothing new. Again, to my understanding.

The two alleles present can mutate by genetic drift, natural selection, and so on. We have identified specific alleles for specific traits enough to know this is how it works, and we have accounted for the number of possible alleles for a certain locus for various traits in humans and I am sure many other organisms.

That said, I imagine the mutation rate would be higher in plants given their general attitudes toward speciation etc so I imagine the number of possible alleles may be higher for plants. That is just a suspicion though.

Anyway, and again this is to my understanding, the effect of these alleles on the RNA and so on is far from the simple punnet square permutations that we might imagine crystallizing out from a basic high school biology understanding. In my mind, and again this is probably a pathetic oversimplification, but I like to think of it as a function that includes both a structure and a rate to then spit out the actual protein the cells create (structure) at the actual rate they create them. This actual creation of the protein can be determined by the genetics at multiple loci, i think.

But idk. I am trying.
 
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#552
Kanzeon said:
The great thing is that those two aren't mutually exclusive. There's nothing to stop someone from cloning and selfing one of the THCV moms to preserve those genetics while creating parallel lines for the future from the same genetics. I'd assume a double blind THCV test for all plants harvested, keeping clones around of every plant until the highest THCV phenos were found and then discarding the rest, then crossing the highest THCV phenos would be the most direct way to create a sustainable THCV strain.
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We are on the same page.
 
#553
Milson said:
Yes. And I think this question is not well understood by anyone and is what causes the complexity to exceed what can be adequately described by anything but the most exhaustive catalog of interactions.

Essentially to my understanding, the two alleles at a locus are each contributed by one parent and each contain instructions for the cell to form a protein at a certain rate in a certain structure (which can vary to some degree). While these can be very simple, such as the classic punnet square dominance case, they can also not be simple and be additive (or perhaps another function....and in terms of frequency and maybe structure, idk...the mathematical modelling translation obviously falls into another dimension with structure). A simple version (complete dominance) is essentially when one allele is enough to lock in the protein production structure/frequency it encodes for and an extra allele with that same code does nothing new. Again, to my understanding.

The two alleles present can mutate by genetic drift, natural selection, and so on. We have identified specific alleles for specific traits enough to know this is how it works, and we have accounted for the number of possible alleles for a certain locus for various traits in humans and I am sure many other organisms.

That said, I imagine the mutation rate would be higher in plants given their general attitudes toward speciation etc so I imagine the number of possible alleles may be higher for plants. That is just a suspicion though.

Anyway, and again this is to my understanding, the effect of these alleles on the RNA and so on is far from the simple punnet square permutations that we might imagine crystallizing out from a basic high school biology understanding. In my mind, and again this is probably a pathetic oversimplification, but I like to think of it as a function that includes both a structure and a rate to then spit out the actual protein the cells create (structure) at the actual rate they create them. This actual creation of the protein can be determined by the genetics at multiple loci, i think.

But idk. I am trying.
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A couple sources for ideas on what makes dominance and recessiveness.

Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 31242 PM


Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 31042 PM

Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 31215 PM

Another explanation.

Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 34252 PM



Rutland, Paul. (2017). Re: How are dominant and recessive alleles structured? (Do both dominant and recessive allele express?). Retrieved from: https://www.researchgate.net/post/H...ss/5981dca4217e2045516423d0/citation/download.



Also a simpler explanation.

Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 31421 PM




Edit: hahahahaha that mistake in the short url is maddening and also topical!
 
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#554
Milson said:
A couple sources for ideas on what makes dominance and recessiveness.

View attachment 1087043

View attachment 1087042
View attachment 1087044

Also a simpler explanation.

View attachment 1087045



Edit: hahahahaha that mistake in the short url is maddening and also topical!
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I will continue this in my own thread if I have further quotes to pull out as I don't want to clutter this with my own curiosities, but this is so cool!

Screenshot 2021 02 01 at 33658 PM
 
#555
If it's a true landrace there shouldn't be many phenos. You should be able to just find a fast growing one with a good structure and cross it with a male of the same stature, then find a few good phenos from the f1 seeds to bx with the mom and dad.
 
#556
...and much later on, when all of the credit for the subsequent world-class high-THCV THCF exclusive strain takes over the market, we all realize that the true value of the strain isn't just the badass smoke, but the friends we made along the way.
 
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